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 Post subject: Hmm, still no Zalman heatpipe VGA cooler.... what to do?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:18 am 
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Their ZM80-HP fanless cooler (suitable for GeForce4) is still nowhere to be found... and I have already ordered a Gainward Ti4200 128MB for my new system. I am also betting the Zalman cooler will cost a fortune.

So I'm pondering... is it worth putting up with GF4's noise and waiting another couple weeks for Zalman to give birth, or should I simply repeat the fanless mod from my article? I could also revise my mod as follows:

Instead of fanless Alpha PAL6035 heatsink, I could use a low-profile PAL15 (identical to 6035, but only 40% of the height) with a 5V Panaflo. Then I wouldn't need to undervolt, and could actually overclock a bit. Unfortunately, any mod of this sort is irreversible because of Arctic Epoxy.

Any ideas?
Leo V


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:39 am 
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I'd say live with it for now and wait for Zalman. Unless your GF4's fan is a screamer and you can 't stand it.

My MSI Ti4200's fan isn't too bad. I'm patiently waiting for zalman too.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:07 am 
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Does anyone know how much its gonna cost? Given that the normal one is around £25 ($40?) I reckon the new one is gonna be at least £40.

Worth it i guess if you want Ti4x00 performance and silence, but i think im gonna stick with a matrox card - which shouldnt cost much more than £40 altogether ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:21 pm 
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I want it all! 3D performance and silence.

I know, I know. To dream the impossible dream...

Would be easier to fight a windmill rather than have a totally silent performance PC.

Seriously, though. The Ti4200 has such a high overclock margain, that it runs quite cool by itself. I wouldn't run it without some kind of heatsink, though. It's not quite as cool as the older GF2 MX

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 3:01 am 
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I suggest using a larger heatsink with more space between fins for passing cooling, such as the one shown on the following page.

http://www.moon.sannet.ne.jp/f-wataru/seion7.htm

The guy who runs this site has his Ti4200 passively cooled without undervolting it. GPU temp for Ti4200 shown is 41C -- 50C, under the ambient temp of 23C. Unfortunately, the exact heat sink that this guy uses isn't available in the U.S., AFAIK, but you may be able to find something similar.

I don't think you need to wait for Zalman's product if you just want to cool Ti4200 passively.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 5:43 am 
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I might be worth checking one of the larger electronic stores in the US for heatsinks designed for general electronic applications and not specifically computers, cos they're a lot cheaper!

Check this one:

Edit: link removed cos it didnt work - see below.

Its only £8 ($14?) and is about 4" by 5" - prolly bigger than the one the bloke in Ausone's link is using - and about a 1/3 the price of the normal Zalman VGA heatsink.

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Last edited by ChiefWeasel on Sun Sep 08, 2002 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 12:12 pm 
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ChiefWeasel, that link doesn't work for me... perhaps you could give me a part number so I can search their site? (EDIT:) hmm, they are a UK store, no wonder my US zipcode wasn't a valid Postcode.. :(

As to Ausone's link, that does look very impressive... although the Ti4200 heatsink is truly frightening size, I wonder if a motherboard sags under all that weight.

As to undervolting, you can undervolt without underclocking--my Ti4200 had a good tolerance for that. I think GPU power could be cut by 15-20% with no underclocking. It helps keep the rest of the system cooler.

PS: I looked at that site more, this person is truly stopping at nothing to go fanless. These enormous self-made heatsinks are more than I (for one) would be able/willing to create and use.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 3:03 pm 
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Ok sorry, shoulda checked the link. Yeah its a UK site ( they seem to have sites for loads of countries, but no US!) - it was just to give you an idea of value for money you get when the products arent aimed at computers where people will pay lots of money.

If you go here: http://rswww.com

and click the 'Electronic' link in the products list on the left,
then click on 'Semiconductors - Sockets/Heatsinks/Accs',
then 'Heatsinks'
then 'High Power Heatsinks'

that should give you a whole page of heatsinks which might be suitable for VGA cards - some are quite big so you might find you need a smaller metal plate to raise the HS above the other components on the board.

Doing this seems quite extreme to me, maybe cos i dont really need Gf4 performance, but i guess it clearly works for people :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:57 pm 
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Someone suggested what seems like a brilliant idea, using a Slot cooler like Vantec P3-5030. I was also thinking Alpha P125... what do you think? Any other ideas? I could actually get one of those cheaply, since people are disposing of their old Slot coolers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 5:31 pm 
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Hmm... after looking up all the specs, I am starting to hesitate.

My card was weighed down pretty seriously by the 175-gram PAL6035. If I put one of these 300+ gram monsters plus copper plate onto the card, it will be a disaster waiting to happen. I will need support strings tied onto the card (like the Japanese site), and the AGP slot will be seriously weighed down.

I am starting to rethink my plan... maybe the PAL15 plus 5V Panaflo wasn't such a bad idea. Or I can wait indefinitely for Zalman's new fanless VGA cooler to come out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:25 am 
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Leov, the huge black heatsink on Ti4200 shown on the cited page actually weighs only 130g, lighter than PAL6035. According to that guy, added aluminium fins weigh about 120g in total.

Alpha P125 may not be so suitable for this purpose since it has so tightly placed fins. I don't know what Vantec P3-5030 is like, but it'll be good if it has sparse fins.

As to place in the U.S. to look for heatsinks that aren't dedicated for PC use, I recommend All Electronics http://www.allelectronics.com/.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:10 am 
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Here is my big question: what makes these lightweight, simple $1 heatsinks better than a $25 copper-embedded finely-machined Alpha? And would you recommend any particular heatsink from AllElectronics? I really don't want to modify the heatsink itself (like adding alum. fins).
Thanks
Leo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:32 am 
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That allelectronics site looks quite good!

If you look at the first HS on page 2 of the Heatsinks section - anyone think this $1.25 HS looks remarkably similar to the $20? Zalman northbridge heasink? Sure you might need to use ur own retention mechanism or ASTE, but at a saving of ~95% who cares!

For your Geforce maybe look at (on page 2) 5th one on first column or 3rd one on second column. If you wanted them you could probably get suitable ram sinks from there too, if you dont have them already, for about a dollar or two.

These heatsinks might need lapping, and may need a little extra work to get them to fit properly, and they are much simpler designs than most Alpha, Swiftech, etc units. These things combine to give the proper ones a much higher price tag.

For a couple or three dollars, its probably worth having a look to see if this looks suitable and viable.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:13 am 
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Well $2 is not much to spend, but once I glue it to my $170 GeForce4 there will be no going back. Even a large heatsink might have less effective surface area than a good heatsink. That's why I am asking whether you guys are sure this will work better than my pal6035. I still have the option of constructing an ultra-quiet Panaflo HSF, so I don't want to do something I'll later regret. My card should arrive in mid-week, so I have this time to consider alternatives..
Thanks,
Leo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:17 am 
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If you translate this link :
http://www.nvchips-fr.com/News/news.php ... wsnumber=6

with google or babelfish, i think it says something about the Zalman heatpipes being distributed now? Cant check cos works proxy thinks the english conversion is pr0n and wont show me :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 6:13 am 
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That sounds encouraging... maybe it's worthwhile to wait. The biggest problem with cooling videocards is their inverted position (hot air gets trapped under the card). Maybe Zalman's cooler will help bring about natural convection... and their design is reversible, so the cooler could be reused on a future card. OK, I am sold on waiting :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:29 am 
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I believe Zalman is already distributing their heatpipe VGA coolers overseas. On Zalman's webboard, someone in the U.S. was asking how to get one now, and Zalman posted a reply to it.

http://board.member.cgiserver.net/CrazyWWWBoard.cgi?mode=read&num=1152&db=flight7004b&backdepth=1

I'm not in need of one right now, so I'll just wait till they're readily available in the U.S. It does look promising though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:30 am 
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I've also noticed the article at nvchips-fr that ChiefWiesel referred to. I read the article and another one referred to therein. According to those, Zalman's heatpipes are now distributed in France, although no one who commented the article at nvchips-fr says he/she has actually seen them. Probably, we'll be seeing them in the U.S. soon, hopefully.

The reason why Alpha 6035 isn't so good in this case is that warmed air is trapped between its densely placed fins. That's why it is designed to be used with a fan that lets hot air move. With fanless cooling, the only thing that moves air is natural convection and some weak air flow, so that fins have to be sparse. Simple, cheap heatsinks you find at AllElectronics have this advantage of having ample space between fins. Among HSs available at AllElectronics, HS-94 seems to be the best if you can cut it to fit your card. Alternatively, you can use two HS-70s by epoxying them to a base of a copper/aluminum sheet via AS adhesive. You might also like to consider using HS-83. HS-77 might be too short and HS-78 may be a bit too long and definitely too heavy. As ChiefWeasel has suggested, you do need some ingenuity and work to use those cheap heatsinks effectively.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:36 pm 
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cool innovations have some of the best low LFM heatsink solutions. you may to check it out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:21 am 
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Link please?

AND MY CARD IS HERE...

...and it's an exceptional overclocker! Without modification, my Gainward ti4200 128mb with Samsung 4ns chips easily handles:

core: 250-->320mhz
mem: 444-->595mhz (no artifacts)

Some 3dmark2001se scores

For a safety margin, I have set 3% below max values, hence 310/575 core/mem.

The bottom line is this. I am programming 3d graphics that might really stress the videocard. Therefore, I am willing to reconsider fanless cooling in favor of Panaflo @5V cooling. However, I will wait for someone to review the Zalman--maybe it's good enough as well.
Leo


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:02 pm 
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coolinnovations.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:51 pm 
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The Zalman GEForce4 heatsinks have finally arrived......

SharkaCorp

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2002 7:38 pm 
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Ahhh finally... although still out of stock...

The price for me is $47.24 shipped...

..if I buy the Zalman 6500B CPU cooler, I'll be paying $98.63 for the bunch. Is that worth it? I guess I better wait for reviews!

Considering that both my CPU and videocard are overclocked by 15-25% (default voltage), and that I will keep this system for at least a year, it may be worthwhile. Both coolers should be reusable, or at least resellable. Also HP80 could be used w/ ASG3 compound. I had to use somewhat inferior AS Epoxy for my previous fanless solution. Assuming the HP80 actually performs par expectations, it could be worthwhile.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 12:53 am 
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$40 is expensive, particularly compared to other solutions. Even if I import a big black heatsink used by the Japanese guy that I mentioned from Japan, it won't cost me over $20. Any of HSs at AllElectronics cost less than $10 shipped. I'd have to wait for a review, too, to see if this is worth it. (I'm now thinking of getting Albatron Ti4200 Turbo, which has 3.3ns ram, and overclocking it.) If its performance isn't spectacular, the only advantage of Zalman HP80 for me will be its reusability. OTOH, I can still mod it by adding some heatsinks or metal strips.

Leov, as regards your CPU cooler, I'd suggest getting Alpha PAL8942 or Thermalright AX478, both of which are cheaper than Zalman 6500B with presumably equal or better performance. You can use AX478 with a fan mounted on Zalman's bracket or its like or duct PAL8942 to your case fan. I prefer the latter approach.

As regards the difference between AS epoxy and AS3, I've read elsewhere that it's not as big as it's hyped to be.


[edit] I've just found a news article about a Ti4200 with Zalman 80-HP, presumably, preinstalled, which was released in Japan. This product was reportedly jointly developed by Zalman and Sigmacom.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20020914/etc_fanlessti42.html

So, at least you can use it with Ti4200 for sure.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 1:28 am 
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If Zalman's reviews don't justify the $47 cost, I will probably make a Panaflo cooler and devise some reversible way to attach it. I could try constructing another fanless cooler, but I am afraid it will spoil my overclock. While the GPU may be cooled sufficiently by a heatsink, the rest of the card inevitably gets hotter; memory chips may not overclock nearly as much.

As for the CPU cooler, I need to solve the problem of directing airflow. In my AthlonXP system, the CPU fan was below an Alpha PEP66, and blowing upwards; the PSU fan completed the expulsion of hot air from the case. This worked wonders with 7V Panaflos, because air was directed out of the case.

With a regular CPU fan blowing sideways (perpendicular to motherboard), hot air is not directed upwards any longer. Any advice on ducting with an 8942? I will have at most three fans, 7V Panaflo for CPU, 5 or 7V Panaflo for PSU, and maybe a 5V for GeForce4.
Thanks a lot,
Leo


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:09 pm 
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I'm assuming you have or going to build a P4 system, given that you mentioned Zalman 6500B. (If you have an AMD system, you can do the same thing with PAL8045 anyway.) I also assume your case fan is not placed lower than the CPU socket on your mobo. Often it's a bit higher than the CPU socket.

Make a duct using materials that are elastic and don't cause vibration noise but yet are hard enough. For instance, you can use Ziploc Freezer (not Storage) bags. Just connect a bare PAL8942 and your case fan with your duct. Since air is supposed to be sucked away from Alpha, this works well. Your case fan exhausts hot air from your PAL8942, instead of directing it to your PSU. Your PSU fan is then to take care of warmed air from other heat sources.


BTW, Panaflos, although very popular, aren't really optimal, IMHO. They don't have good noise/CFM ratio, compared to, say Papst. A 80mm Panaflo moves too little air if 5-volted. A 7-volted Panaflo gives you sufficient air flow but outputs a bit too much noise, for silencing your case. A good fan for 5-volting is something rated at around 25dBA/30CFM that doesn't give you a strange noise when 5-volted. I'm using fans rated at about 26dBA/31CFM at 5v. It's difficult to find a good fan for 5-volting, as not every fan with similar specs performs equally quietly at 5 volt. For 7-volting, I find a PCP&C Silencer to be somewhat better than a Panaflo accoustically, although it seems to move somewhat less air.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 3:57 am 
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Very good idea... I am convinced. Just bought a PAL6035 with ArticSilver3 for $42.50 shipped together. I'll buy better fans once my pocketbook recovers from all this :)

Question about the duct: since the fan sucks air, the duct has lower pressure than outside air. Won't this cause the soft Ziploc material to compress? Also, should the exhaust fan be attached to the back wall of the chassis? (My EN7237 has space there for an exhaust fan.)
Leo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 8:46 pm 
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Actually, I owe this idea to the site that I referred to earlier. He also has a page for making a duct.

http://www.moon.sannet.ne.jp/f-wataru/seion6.htm

As a matter of fact, you don't have to follow this instruction precisely and can make one by using a single plastic sheet obtained by cutting the sides of a Ziploc bag. I confirmed it by myself. You do need to make a precise draft for it, though. His method doesn't require precise drafting but requires other materials and more steps.

Quote:
Question about the duct: since the fan sucks air, the duct has lower pressure than outside air. Won't this cause the soft Ziploc material to compress?


It can, that's why you need to use a Ziploc for Freezer!. It's thicker than ones for storage. With a Ziploc Freezer bag, I've observed no such compression.


Quote:
Also, should the exhaust fan be attached to the back wall of the chassis? (My EN7237 has space there for an exhaust fan.)


Yes. Do you have any other option with your case?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:00 pm 
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Well, the review for ZM80-HP is out!

http://www.nokytech.net/dossier.php?lire=51&page=1

The reviewer used it with TI4600 for testing. The result appears encouraging although some may not think it spectacular.

Quote:
Ambient temperature inside Antec 1035 : 24°C
Max temperature with the original HSF : 47.9°C
Max temperature with ZALMAN ZM80-HP : 56.6°C


The reviewer points out two problems. One is the loss of a PCI slot, which is expected. Another is the preclusion of the use of two RAM slots on ASUS P4S533, which is totally unexpected! I don't know if this happens on other boards. Some boards with a different layout may not be affected, I imagine.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2002 9:55 pm 
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Quote:
"Do you have any other option with your case?"


Yes, I think putting the fan in its "normal" place atop the PAL8942 may work better (with a duct) for these reasons:

1) The fan is deeper inside the case--so it generates less noise.
2) It is positioned right next to the heat source (CPU), so it should be more efficient at pumping hot air. Farther positions may be less effective due to air friction.
3) I can completely cut out the perforated-metal exhaust grille (in my case's back panel), reducing friction for outgoing air. This means I will have an 80mm round hole in the back wall of the computer, to which the duct will connect.
4) The problem of air pressure is solved, because the fan is now pumping hot air INTO the duct.

Also, there is another problem to address: so far we have two fans blowing air OUT of the case, but nothing for air intake. EN7237 has grilles along the lower side panel, do you think they'll be sufficient? I could also consider installing an intake fan in the lower-front of the case. Maybe I'll just break the bank and buy 4 Papsts to cool everything @7V.

Regarding Zalman's cooler: (from Babelfish translation--) the reviewer had a very well-ventilated case, 24C if I recall correctly. My case is not so well-ventilated, and my ambient temps go up to 39C. Therefore, HP80 won't work on my system. I'll probably make a

EDIT: My post got cut off...

[continued:] a detachable heatsink/Palaflo @5V combo, which will be attached using strings threaded through the holes surrounding the GPU. Then I'll be able to use AS3 for contact, as well.


Last edited by LeoV on Mon Sep 16, 2002 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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