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 Post subject: water cooling loudness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:12 am 
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for those of you who has water cooling in their system...

how loud is the water pump? and can the radiator be cooled with 2 or less panaflo's at 5v?

i'm thinking of water cooling for my new computer... thanks all!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:36 am 
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My watercooled system (for pics see: www.xs4all.nl/~philippo ) has an Eheim 1046 pump inside the case. I put it in a piece of plastic foam (value: 1 cent) to iron out the vibrations, but that's because I'm a perfectionist. The pump is unaudible, unless I open the case and put my ear to it. I made my own radiator as you can see on my website, from copper tubing, which can be done for under $25 if you know how to solder. I don't have any fan on it at all. The only fan in my system is the one in my psu, which is a tempcontrolled papst which runs at 1500 rpm max, normally around 1000rpm. To make clear how silent a good watercooled system is: I bought an LCD monitor because heard the noise my CRT made.
Some people complain about noisy waterpumps because they buy too big pumps, assuming that more waterflow equals more cooling, which is bollocks unless you have a really badly designed waterblock.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:29 pm 
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That's an awesome setup you have there!!! I'm jealous! :P

which pump exactly are you using? I'm building my custom case which will be tightly sealed and am thinking of cooling it with water + copper radiator. I was actually going to make the radiator little more compact than yours :) and will try to put it on the top of the computer (computer will be a cube).

Good work!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:49 pm 
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That is impressive, indeed, but where does the brass bed headboard -- oh I mean copper radiator! :wink: -- go?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 7:44 pm 
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My watercooled PC is so quiet that you have concentrate to hear it.

Waterpumps are not that loud if you isolate the vibration. If you run submerged it is even quieter. I am running a heater core passive. Works fine on my 2.27GHz Althon which has never went over 40°C


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:48 pm 
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Sounds interesting. Is this a custom setup? Or is it a purchased setup?

Asmordean wrote:
My watercooled PC is so quiet that you have concentrate to hear it.

Waterpumps are not that loud if you isolate the vibration. If you run submerged it is even quieter. I am running a heater core passive. Works fine on my 2.27GHz Althon which has never went over 40°C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:34 am 
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SungHyun7 wrote:
That's an awesome setup you have there!!! I'm jealous! :P

which pump exactly are you using? I'm building my custom case which will be tightly sealed and am thinking of cooling it with water + copper radiator. I was actually going to make the radiator little more compact than yours :) and will try to put it on the top of the computer (computer will be a cube).

Good work!

Thx! Like I said: the pump is an Eheim 1046. They're small, capacity is 5l/hour. A smaller radiator will do nicely: Before this one I had a much smaller radiator, (25*15cm), which was cooled by a 120mm papst running at just 800rpm, so a fan at 5V is really enough.
My radiator is just for fun, and that it works well is a bonus :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:37 am 
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MikeC wrote:
That is impressive, indeed, but where does the brass bed headboard -- oh I mean copper radiator! :wink: -- go?

Well, the copper radiator stays outside the computer case, behind my desk, and warms my feet in winter, but now that you mention the word "brass bed board", I just got an idea that would be great for computer cooling as well as for keeping hands warm during kinky sex :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:56 am 
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Gerwin wrote:
around 1000rpm. To make clear how silent a good watercooled system is: I bought an LCD monitor because heard the noise my CRT made.


Interesting. That's actually a pretty good way to describe how, in words how quiet your system really is. Seeing how your setup is able to cool your system effectively passively I'm wondering how well something like a car/truck size radiator would fair with passive cooling.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:50 am 
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haha it's time to take out the apexi intercooler from my car!

water cooling sounds like a viable option... i wanted to build a case that is completely sealed and box it up with the sound muffling board and just have the radiator out.

if i want to use something commercially made--pretty small that will fit inside of a computer...is it possible to use the radiator passively? or must it be an active cooling?

i'm beginning to like this water cooling idea!

by the way, how do you submerge a water pump? i'll be interested to know...

technically we can submerge the whole computer in mineral oil or some non conductive medium and have copper radiators both inside and out, but it will be hell to upgrade the comp :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:52 am 
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i wonder how quiet the pump actually are....

i used to have a small fish bowl and that water pump was pretty loud...

i'm guessing it wouldn't need any cooling by itself since water goes through it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:27 am 
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if u suspend an ehiem pump in elastic in a res it will be like totaly silent it will be cooled by water. if used inline, a tiny bit of airflow is all that is required to cool the pump.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:20 am 
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SungHyun7 wrote:
haha it's time to take out the apexi intercooler from my car!

water cooling sounds like a viable option... i wanted to build a case that is completely sealed and box it up with the sound muffling board and just have the radiator out.

if i want to use something commercially made--pretty small that will fit inside of a computer...is it possible to use the radiator passively? or must it be an active cooling?

i'm beginning to like this water cooling idea!

by the way, how do you submerge a water pump? i'll be interested to know...

technically we can submerge the whole computer in mineral oil or some non conductive medium and have copper radiators both inside and out, but it will be hell to upgrade the comp :)

It's rather hard to see, but my box is also completely covered in sound deadening material. It helps!
I think that if you take a commercially made radiator and put it inside your case, you'll need some kind of airflow in your case, because you have to get rid of the heat somewhere, even the best radiator doesn't beat the laws of physics. Especially in a sealed box.
How to submerge a pump: With an Eheim it's easy (no I don't own any stock), because it's orginally a fishbowl/fountain pump, and you can just dump it in any waterreservoir. It's completely sealed, so nu shortfusing.
If you like building your own computer, I can really recommend making a watercooled system. Apart from the lack of noise and the excellent cooling capacity, it's completely impractical, but it's sooo much fun building it and seeing the water run through transparent hoses inside and out your computer. Look for websites about watercooling and find out how many configurations are possible. Consider all options well before you start. If you want to go all the way and get rid of your social life, I can recommend you this site:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/default.asp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:18 pm 
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hey one question...

why doesn't anyone watercool their PSU?

is there any difficulties?

do heatsinks get charged during the usage of psu?

just curious.... or is it because it's just too much trouble?

thanks much in advance.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:47 pm 
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Yes it is a custom set. Pretty bodged together but works great.

Pump noise - Don't make the mistake of comparing a fishtank filter pump with what people use to cool systems. Fish tank pumps sit against a pane of glass and are not made to be quiet. An Eheim, Danner, ViaAqua can be dunked into a bucket of water which will absorb some of the vibration. Even better is to shove a sponge into the bottom of the tank for zero vibration transfer. How quiet? My ViaAqua emits a low (about 75Hz) hum that is inaudible from about 4 feet away. If you put your head against the tank you can hear it. The hiss from speakers just being on will overpower the pump and then some.

I have my radiator outside my PC sitting horizontally. The fan is on a switch but I rarely turn it on.

People have watercooled PSUs but they are more of a challenge. Zerofanzone did it I think.
1. Some high voltages in there, getting water on your MB might kill it. Getting water in your PSU might set it on fire.
2. More complex due to PSUs being different from manufacturer to manufacturer or even model to model. This means kits are out which means custom only.
3. More than one thing to cool in a PSU. Unlike a CPU or GPU, a PSU has several components that need cooling. There are the transistors attached to the heatsink inside the PSU as well as the transformer. I don't know if anything else needs it.
4. Fans in PSUs almost always run far faster/noiser than they really need to. Remove all grills since they just create turblence and how often are you sticking your fingers in your PSU anyway? I've run PSU fans for years at 5v, you could use 7v if that scares you. I also found the second fan in my Enermax to be redudent so I blocked it off and removed it. It has been running fine for a month now, but this scares even more people.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 12:08 am 
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SungHyun7 wrote:
hey one question...

why doesn't anyone watercool their PSU?

is there any difficulties?

do heatsinks get charged during the usage of psu?

just curious.... or is it because it's just too much trouble?

thanks much in advance.


Asmordean sums it up very nicely, and btw: heatsinks in psu are live! I found out the hard way :oops:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:38 pm 
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Something that I've started to wonder about is why PSUs are built so that the fan is at the back blowing out. Everyone knows that you would get much better air flow it the parts being cooled were directly in the air stream of the fan, instead of just being cooled by the air the fan is sucking. Simple sollution: why not put the fan on the front of the PSU (towards the drives) and have it blow across all the components on the PSU and out the vent hole in the back where the fan normally sits? This seems so elementary to me that I must be missing something. Anyone know why this is? I'm thinking about modding my PSU to do this. (ie. removing the fan from the back of the PSU and mounting it on the front so that it blows INTO the PSU, not sucks out of.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:44 pm 
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Quote:
Anyone know why this is?
Read Recommended PSUs-- there is a discussion of the ATX PSU spec which explains.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:02 am 
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I read that article, Mike, but I didn't really see anything that explained my problem. Which means I probably just didn't make myself clear. I'll briefly try again.

Ever put a fan in the window? Theoretically it shouldn't matter if you have the fan blowing into or out of the room (there are envorinmental concers, such as if there is wind blowing outside or how the airflow of the building is, but let's ignore those). The fan is moving air. But what is true is that if you put your hand 2 feet away from the fan on the "blow" side, you will feel air moving. If you do the same on the "suck" side, chances are you will not feel any air moving. This is because the fan draws air from everywhere (diffuse) around it but concentrates (focused) its exhaust.

So theoretically whether the fan is on the back (towards the cables) blowing out of the PSU or on the front (towards the drives) blowing in it moves the same amount of air. But this assumes that the PSU is seales except for one intake and one exhaust hole. Often they are not. This is why I think you could improve the efficiency of the cooling (and therefore decreasing noise) effect of the fan by placing it on the drive side of the PSU blowing into the PSU. It would accomlish the same general purposes of the PSU fan (moves air across the PSU components and also acts as an exhaust for the case) but could do so more efficiently because it is blowing air directly on hot PSU components instead of sucking air from the PSU, whether it has been in direct contact with hot components or not.

Hopefully that cleared it up? I realize it's really not that important, but oh well. I'll probably do it to my PSU. I'll let you all know what happens.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:19 am 
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Ok, I see what you're saying. I suspect it won't make much difference becase the intake side of the fan in the PSU is pretty much enclosed, it is not pulling the air in from everywhere -- there usually are intake holes only on the back or on the bottom towards the back. I can easily feel the air flowing into those slots on most PSUs. There may be some noise reduction simply because the fan is deeper in the case so the sound does not have as direct a path out.

Some engineer told me that the first PC PSUs did it this way for a while. Many of the large PC makers -- Dell, Gateway, etc -- also use a fan on the other side of the PSU -- see the IDF article, near the bottom of the page. I actually built a system not long ago with a single fan on the far side of the PSU -- the only fan in the system. Have to put that article together one day!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:12 pm 
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Another component to cool inside the case these days is the mobo's VCore regulator. MSI's are using heatsinks on that part now, although most others still seem to just use the mobo as a heatsink. With a big bad CPU, that regulator, probably 80%'ish efficiency, is blowing some bigtime wattage. Unfortunately were talking about a custom waterblock for many mobos, and probably never any proper mounting facilities like holes. Makes me think that even a totally sealed case could maybe use a fan inside just stirring the air around to help even out any hot spots. Makes me think that silent fannage and vented cases aree still the right target, even in conjunction with water cooling the main heat loads.

As for PSU airlfow: on my PSU they had the inside opposite the fan (towards front of case) fairly well perforated, but then had some extra slots around one side to help cool the input rectifier. These designs seem to rely on the air inlet positioning to choose where the air cools. Certainly that also implies some air restriction if you want anything like focus flow. That implies bigtime reduction in fan throughput. I bet with the rather minimal airflow of most themal controlled PSU's that unless the power gets up, there is really little issue. Most of the semiconductors and passives can handle fairly extreme temps compared to a fussy CPU, and the hotter something gets the faster the heat will spread away. I modded mine by yanking the fan off the back, and put a peice of thick felt with an 80mm hole covering the inside front perforated side. I cut out an 80mm hole through the perfs to match, and hotmelted the fan to the felt. So I got the fan further inside the case, vibration decoupled by the felt, 7 volted, and covered the other side slots. Moving the fan further in was also my only real option for proper vibration decoupling since it was very cramped inside the PSU, no room even for grommeting. It still runs fine of course, but much quieter now. In all fairness though, I should put a grill back on the outside since it's an open hole into the HV now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:35 am 
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OK. I've done some research and found only one site.

This question goes to to those who had opened up a psu before.

to watercool a powersupply:
Would it work if I put on a waterblock on the heatsink already in the power supply? I'll use thermal epoxy generously to make sure it has good contact.

As long as heatsink top stays cool, it should be okay right?

or do I need other components to be cooled?

I noticed the main transformer doesn't have any heatsink on it yet it probably needs cooling. Would it work if I put a simple cheap water block made for northridge chipset? and glue it on there?

thanks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:43 am 
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Quote:
do I need other components to be cooled?

Yes. IMO, it is not worth trying to go fanless with a PSU that is designed to be fan-cooled. There are way too many unknowns, and there are LOTS of things that get hot in a PSU.

If the rest of the system is going to be watercooled, then you should have very little extraneous heat from the case going into the PSU. Under these conditions, a top quality PSU (rated for high power -- maybe something like a Seasonic 400) with a super quiet 80mm fan will not be audible and assure good reliable servce.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:47 pm 
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Thanks for your reply, Mike. I'll check out that article.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:39 pm 
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one more thing.... do radiator need fan? for ~2ghz p4, ati 9500pro, and one hard drive in serial water connection...

i guess i can just experiment...


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