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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:03 am 
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Bluefront wrote:
Interesting device.....but not for me. I do have a device here that would solve the problem of turning on the pump automatically when the computer starts. I bought it at Radio Shack a few years ago....don't think they sell it anymore.


A company called Bits Ltd. makes a power strip that does exactly what you described. It turns on other outlets when the the device on the control outlet turns on. Here is the link. The price is about $30. You can buy it directly from their site. Smarthome also carries it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:51 am 
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Now thats a cool device ChrisH. Next system I build will be making use of one of those strips (or something similar depending if they are available over here).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:55 am 
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Quote:
6800 Ultra for testing


... hehe I already emailed BFGTech, and am awaiting their reply. Since I have both the Reserator and the EXOS Al, I can run load comparisons. I'm pretty sure that the EXOS will do better, but it can show you how the two systems vary in both noise and performance and the balance between the two. Although I do not have the fancy acoustic recording equipment of SPCR, I can still provide a verbal explanation :P

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:55 am 
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The pump noise in mine would come and go. One day it would be as quiet as the day I bought it and the next there would be some noise. Shutting the pump on and off a couple times would sometimes make it go away and other times it wouldn't. Even when it was making noise it wasn't very much. I could only hear it because there are no other noise sources in my systems; no fans and no drive noise. I'm neither dissapointed with the Reserator nor would I bother trying to find a quieter pump because I doubt you could find one. All pumps, like fans, are going to make some noise.

I think one great advantage of the Reserator is it's ability to cool multiple undervolted 3 ghz systems. A single extremely quiet cooling solution for three, maybe even four, computers. But there just aren't many people running multiple computers side by side. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:58 am 
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This is the type of relay I was thinking about, but what BF and ChrisH mentioned would work perfectly fine as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:28 am 
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Here is a review of the power strip at retroblast.com.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:26 pm 
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Nice review Mike. Excellence as standard :).

Noticed a Spelling mistake thought - page 1.

Quote:
RESERATOR

The true heart of the entire system, the Reserator combines the pump, the radiator, and a reservoir into a single unit. It is essentially a deeply-finned water-filled tube of extruded aluminum, with a pump submerged at its base. All of the aluminum has been anodized a deep, iridescent blue



That RESERATOR should be a RESER*V*ATOR eh? :).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:32 pm 
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What the _ _ _ _ are you talking about... ? It's all spelled correctly.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:40 pm 
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*goes look*

My my.

For some reason it got stuck in my head that it's not Reserator but RESE*V*ATOR.

My apologies.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake :).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:42 pm 
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eeeeeeeeeeyeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

ohkayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.....


moving on....

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:56 pm 
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shathal wrote:
Noticed a Spelling mistake thought - page 1.


Bolded for emphasis.

I nominate shathal for the post-of-the-week award.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:58 pm 
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and onto the 3 page mark we go! POST! POST! POST! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:20 pm 
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Yeah, Yeah....Let's see. Stain your carpet with God knows what. Distroy your expensive video card with dripping fluid. Your computer needs a new water-pump, sir. What's that wierd looking thing there? My pump runneth dry. Do I hear rattling from behind the desk? Prime your computer? You paid how much for that? :P


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:20 pm 
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ChrisH wrote:
Bluefront wrote:
Interesting device.....but not for me. I do have a device here that would solve the problem of turning on the pump automatically when the computer starts. I bought it at Radio Shack a few years ago....don't think they sell it anymore.


A company called Bits Ltd. makes a power strip that does exactly what you described. It turns on other outlets when the the device on the control outlet turns on. Here is the link. The price is about $30. You can buy it directly from their site. Smarthome also carries it.


For UK readers you can get a similar device to this in Maplins, although I'm b******d if I can find it on their website. It looks like a normal power strip with 4/5 sockets, with a black control socket which controls the others.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:42 am 
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Interesting article, Russ, but may I comment as follows;

It is not a totally PASSIVE water cooling system as an active water pump is used. The radiator can be regarded as passive as it is not fan cooled.

innovatek have been offering the innovaKonvekt range of passive radiators for several months and kits are available with these rads. Kits that reviewers say suits novices as well as experts. So the Zalman product is not the first commercially available kit. innovatek also offer the HTCS passive radiator which totally outshines the Zalman product.

Passive radiators work well with a large metal surface area and a SMALL volume of water. This is why the innovaKonvekt radiators are made up of several channels between header tanks. The Reserator is a large container of water with a few external fins.

It is all very well having a flow meter providing you are looking at it when the flow fails! An electronic flow meter is available that connects to the CPU 3 pin header on the motherboard. If flow fails then the board shuts down or sounds an alarm Ideal for 24/7 operation.

innovatek do a superb 12 volt DC conversion of the Eheim 1046 pump. This is the holy grail of water cooling - it connects to a 4 pin Molex connector. And you cannot compare water flow rate to air flow rate. This is one of the myths of water cooling. A high flow rate through a waterblock will result in more heat being absorbed. But the slower the flow rate through a radiator, then the more heat is rejected. So there must be a balance. If you fit too large a pump, the back flow resistance will stress the pump motor which could then burn out.

Where a mains AC pump is fitted, a simple 12 volt DC relay is available to automatically switch on the mains pump via a 3 pin motherboard header.

Only distilled water is recommended for filling the system. You have dissimilar metals in the circuit, aluminium and copper, so some sort of protection fluid should be used. innovatek provide a protection fluid with all their kits and their warranty is dependant on adding this to distilled water.

A waterblock can be fitted to the GPU of a graphics card, but the Cool-Matic range of VGA card waterblocks can cover both the GPU and RAM. And they can be fitted to both sides of the card more maximum performance.

The operating temperature, with the VGA block in circuit, at 64C (let alone at 63C without it!!) is higher than most people would accept with air cooling, let alone water cooling. This shows that the system can't cope with that heat load and reflects on the efficiency of the radiator. An innovatek system will run around 40C with very little variation under load. That is the sign of a balanced system.

You might feel I have an axe to grind. We are resellers of water cooling equipment. As a small company without ties, we can offer what we want, so why not offer the best? innovatek have a superb range of water cooling equipment and are about to lanch a water cooled Engelking based PSU. There is plenty of other good kit on the market but a lot of people are jumping onto the water cooling band wagon and bringing the subject into disrepute.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:56 am 
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... umm... ok... you know you could have just COMPRESSED ALL THAT into "____ is better...". I lost interest once you said "We are resellers...". Who are "WE"?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:05 am 
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Hello Paul! Welcome to SPCR!

A couple points of clarification:
Paul Haussauer wrote:
It is not a totally PASSIVE water cooling system as an active water pump is used. The radiator can be regarded as passive as it is not fan cooled.


Yeah, this is actually a point that was discussed during the writing of the review. Calling it "Passively radiated", or "Fanless" would be more semanticly accurate. :lol:

Paul Haussauer wrote:
So the Zalman product is not the first commercially available kit.


I actually referred to it the first "widely available" passive radiator kit. Define "widely" as you wish, but as far as I've seen, the HTCS's are not yet available outside of the EU.



Of course, it would be really simple to compare the innovatek passive solution to the Zalman... just send us one to test. :lol:


For those who aren't aware, Paul's company is Koolnquiet.co.uk Paul, you should probably read the Announcement: Attention all VENDORS! forum announcement, just to avoid confusion. Thanks.

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Last edited by Rusty075 on Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:11 am 
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I've had a Reserator since April and am hugely happy with it. I am restoring an old house on the French/Spanish border and have big problems with heat and dust. This device has solved them both, and been practically silent into the bargain. (My slowed-down 120mm case fan is louder)

I have just noticed the recall (so thanks for pointing that out), so I'll follow that up although I've had no leaks.

My Athlon 64 3400+ is running at 42 deg C (107 deg F), one degree C cooler than the motherboard reading. A temp probe running at the exhaust outlet of my case (Antec P160) gives the ambient temp at 38 degrees. Even after intense gaming, the CPU temp diode has yet to report more than 5 degrees C more than the Case Temp.

I'd be very pleased if the VGA block option worked with the Geforce 6800 Ultra that I'm planning on buying...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:57 am 
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Rusty075 wrote:
I actually referred to it the first "widely available" passive radiator kit. Define "widely" as you wish, but as far as I've seen, the HTCS's are not yet available outside of the EU.


My good friend, Sharkacorp carries the passive radiators.

Only one store, to me, isn't, "Widely Available," but Sharka is American...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:22 am 
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Sharka carries the Konvekt-O-Matic, but not the very cool (pun!) HTCS-Radiator.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no particular loyalty to either Zalman or the Reserator. The review did, after all, describe the temperature results as "decent, but unspectacular". I would really, really enjoy a first-hand look at the HTCS-Radiator.... a second passive radiator test would provide much needed perspective on the pro's and con's of such systems.


EDIT:

After some googling and froogling, it turns out that I am completely wrong. The HTCS is available "widely": HighSpeedPC carries it here in North America. I'll re-write that paragraph of the review.

But boy, $329.99 for just the radiator is a wee bit steep. No pump, no WB, just rad and tubing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:48 am 
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Hmmmm... Yes, a review of these (both the Konvekt-O-Matic and HTCS - as they are different performance classes, :) judging from their size) would be very appreciated by all readers, I am sure.

Someone (I am too lazy to wind back and look who exactly) mentioned using the Reserator with two computers at once.
This is curious, but to me a somewhat different setup would be more interesting - a TOTALLY watercooled PC, using the Reserator. What do I mean under 'totally'? I mean using widely (at least in EU) available HDD waterblocks, chipset waterblocks and watercooled PSUs with the Reserator. Of course that would require a way more powerful pump, but it might be worth it. Minor components like the RAM, video memory and (some) chipsets can go okay with passive aircooled heatsinks. How do you like that idea?

Just to help you get what I mean:
Watercooled PSU
Watercooled HD enclosure
(thats the shop that I've found first, I'm sure there's more that offer things like this)

P.S. Yes, I know this is pricey, but afterall, achieving NEARLY total silence (total silence is 0dBA, despite some people saying otherwise) WITH all the components staying in the reasonable temperature range IS a demanding task.
Of course, you could always buy the Zalman's TNN-500 and not bother with watercooling, but...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:38 pm 
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acaurora wrote:
... umm... ok... you know you could have just COMPRESSED ALL THAT into "____ is better...". I lost interest once you said "We are resellers...". Who are "WE"?

Well, I think that's a little harsh. I feel that he brought out some valid points, and I appreciate him identifying himself as a vendor of a competing product.

I'm a novice to water cooling, so having his point by point presentation of why Innovatek's solution is superior does help.

Edit : Interestingly, Tom's Hardware (yes I know of all their flaws and all) reported the Zalman to cool slightly better than the Innovatek. Of course, they did not specify a lot of details on their testing procedure. It'll be great if Russ can get an Innovatek radiator for comparison testing. It cost more than a cheap PC, but it sure is beautiful to look at...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:48 pm 
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http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozen ... ad-33.html

At $329 plus shipping with no hoses, pump, or waterblocks it had better perform ALOT better than the Reserator. But I won't complain. I love the concept and hope many more develope simular and even better performing products, including Zalman.

My bad. I see that it does come with tubing.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:03 pm 
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Veydajar wrote:
P.S. Yes, I know this is pricey, but afterall, achieving NEARLY total silence (total silence is 0dBA, despite some people saying otherwise) WITH all the components staying in the reasonable temperature range IS a demanding task.


don't mean to hijack, but a comment like that is impossible to resist. maybe some people are saying otherwise because 0dBA is most certainly not "total silence"? :roll:
you can, by definition, hear 0dBA... not very well, but hey. :)

(no zealot here btw, have two hds exposed to the outside of my case atm since i've been too lazy to resuspend them somewhere else yet)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:09 pm 
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Paul Haussauer wrote:
Passive radiators work well with a large metal surface area and a SMALL volume of water. This is why the innovaKonvekt radiators are made up of several channels between header tanks.

Good point; many forget that water's specific heat is 4x air's by mass. BTW, how does the water flow in the HTCS?

Paul Haussauer wrote:
And you cannot compare water flow rate to air flow rate. This is one of the myths of water cooling. A high flow rate through a waterblock will result in more heat being absorbed. But the slower the flow rate through a radiator, then the more heat is rejected.

My myths differ from yours, and it is exactly like air cooling, IMO. Heat transfer is related to the temperature differential between the hot and cold sides, so we always want the coldest possible water in the block, the hottest possible water in the radiator, and the coldest possible air into the radiator (or HSF for air cooling). This implies moving the water out of the respective device as quickly as we can, because the heat transfer falls as the water's temperature changes. Let's not ignore higher flow's ability to reduce stagnation in the boundary layer and provide more effective transfer between the water and metal. The (limited) testing I've seen shows a clear increase in cooling as water flow rises. Example here. If you could contribute any links or further discussion, I'll be happy to read.

Regardless, the CPU's heatload does not vary with water flow, therefore there cannot be more heat for the water to absorb. The same applies for cooling in the radiator.

Paul Haussauer wrote:
An innovatek system will run around 40C with very little variation under load. That is the sign of a balanced system.

That's a great number for a fanless radiator! What are the test condiitions? How is the temperature measured? And isn't the temperature delta from idle to load simply the cooling system's C/W times the wattage increase?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:59 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
Paul Haussauer wrote:
An innovatek system will run around 40C with very little variation under load. That is the sign of a balanced system.


HammerSandwich:
That's a great number for a fanless radiator! What are the test condiitions? How is the temperature measured? And isn't the temperature delta from idle to load simply the cooling system's C/W times the wattage increase?


Please keep in mind that Zalman _also_ can achieve similar performance; the 62 degrees measurements in review were worst case numbers; most of the normal systems, at least those aimed to be quiet, do no produce 105 watts of CPU heat, for example..

I am running my system with Zalman and I have pretty powerhungry Athlon XP 3000+ CPU and mid-class display adapter Radeon 9600 Pro, and I get my system run hotter than 40 degrees only after some 4 hours of continuous gaming, and 42 degrees is the hottest I've seen this far.

So, before we see those other systems reviewed by SPCR with same test rig, I would take all the numbers with caution.

Another point is that the main advantage of the Zalman system is that it is easy to install and performs well enough. As a PC silencer, I have used to running CPU with temps at 60 degrees when running with air cooling, and that was not a problem to me. If additional effectiveness of the water cooling system does not produce added value in form of quieter computer, it's significance is pretty low to me. Having processor run hot is not any problem as such, it is problem only if that means it's harder to silence the computer.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:18 am 
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Straker wrote:
you can, by definition, hear 0dBA... not very well, but hey. :)

Ooops, my bad. Of course I meant 0dB. Been using the A-weighted type so often its like a reflex :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:25 am 
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Had the reserator for months now (march? may? something like that)...thanks to it, I can now run my PC 24/7 in my bedroom...

I can tell when it is on...but I am going to remove the flow meter to reduce noise...(there is no point in it being there for me, as I have the PC running 24/7even when at work or sleeping, so there is only going to be a 1/4 chance of me being infront of the PC if it failed. that combined with the fact that I cannot see the resorator from where I sit means that the flow meter will never tell me that there is a problem...so it may as well go.

one thing I dont get is...temps...I have an amd athlon xp 1900+ running the folding at home stuff...I get temps of 58°C, yet the test rig gave only 46°C on a faster system...so what have I done wrong?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
hwsboss:
one thing I dont get is...temps...I have an amd athlon xp 1900+ running the folding at home stuff...I get temps of 58°C, yet the test rig gave only 46°C on a faster system...so what have I done wrong?


I do not truly know, but some random thoughts:

I think that by looking at processor eletrical specifications, Athlon XP 1900+ is almost as power hungry as the fastest Athlon XP processors nowadays. For example, my Athlon XP 3000+ produces same amount of heat than my previous XP 2000+, just because the core has been enhanced.

I also do not run any software using processor idle time, and I think this has dramatic effect into power consumption and thus heat produced. And, I have undervolted my XP 3000+ from 1.65 volts to 1.53V. It runs perfectly fine with default speed even while being undervolted a bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:47 pm 
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Quote:
I think that by looking at processor eletrical specifications, Athlon XP 1900+ is almost as power hungry as the fastest Athlon XP processors nowadays. For example, my Athlon XP 3000+ produces same amount of heat than my previous XP 2000+, just because the core has been enhanced.


yeh...I have heard that before.....I guess I better find out a good chip to replace it with...I hear that sometime amd make a really good batch, that they then unlock and sell as a mobile chip, with a low voltage...but you need to know the batches number if you want to order one specificly...

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