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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:50 am 
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seemed like the perfect psu for me until i read that theres no 6 pin adapter.

i already cost myself 50 quid by getting the nexus ne4090 and finding out that it is in fact not really compatible with the new mobos, some poor schuck is bound to buy this and see that he cannot plug in hisbrandnew graphics card.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:14 am 
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You could always go up to the 500W and 600W versions. They are now pretty much the same as the 430 version in terms of noise since the fan change, and they have 2 connectors for the video cards.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:57 pm 
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I recall the SPCR review saying that the fan in the 600W ramped up faster and had a higher minimum speed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:57 pm 
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I thought that the 500W and the 600W were the same models, being different than the 430W. The differences were in the fan, and the 5 and 600W versions were a completely different circuit design.

However, Seasonic then changed the fan from a sleeve bearing to the Adda dual ball bearing fan, the same fans in the 5 and 600W versions.

I have a 500W version and for me this thing is quieter than I could have ever imagined. In my P180 with 4 hot WD250 GB hard drives and the 38mm fan on low, the fan never ramps up past 800 RPM, or when I'm really taxing the hard drives (backups) it rarely gets past 900 RPM.

Its definately quiet. Also, just FYI, I just read the review again and I noticed that I have the power factor of .99 on my PSU. This means that my PSU is on the 80 plus list, making it more efficient (albeit probably not by much) than the 430. This means less heat (again, probably not much) and therefore less of a fan ramp up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:38 pm 
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thetoad30 wrote:
Its definately quiet. Also, just FYI, I just read the review again and I noticed that I have the power factor of .99 on my PSU. This means that my PSU is on the 80 plus list, making it more efficient (albeit probably not by much) than the 430. This means less heat (again, probably not much) and therefore less of a fan ramp up.

It is efficient but not THAT efficient. Don't confuse Power Factor with Efficiency; the 2 are totally different issues.

In the plainest terms, PF refers to what kind of load the driving AC source "sees" at the PSU. High PF means it's easy for AC to be delivered.

Efficiency is how well the PSU converts AC to DC. How many watts does the PSU have to pull from the AC to deliver a given DC output? That's what efficiency is about. 80% means to deliver 80W, the PSU draws 100W AC. The 20W difference is lost as heat -- which is why high efficiency is so useful -- less heat generated in the PSU.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:33 pm 
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Oh yeah I know that! :) I was merely stating that the .99 PF PSU's are *usually* more efficient because they put more quality components in in order to maintain not only the PF but also to meet the stricter guidelines.

I know in Europe PF is required.

I was also saying that mine has PF... which is the one listed on the 80 PLUS page... I'm not sure if they make a different 500W, but if its not the PF one, its not on that list. That was my main point... just identifying my version. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:36 pm 
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thetoad30 wrote:
Oh yeah I know that! :) I was merely stating that the .99 PF PSU's are *usually* more efficient because they put more quality components in in order to maintain not only the PF but also to meet the stricter guidelines.

Actually in a few of the PSU reviews on this site, MikeC mentioned that active PFC (which you need to achieve .99 PF) usually results in lower AC to DC efficiency.

Phantom 350 review wrote:
Note too, that the US version does not have an power factor correction and is much more efficient than the EU version which does have Active PFC.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:48 pm 
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And, to elaborate on what lenny said, the reason for the lower efficiency is because and Active PFC circuit actually requires a small amount of power. That said, I think thetoad30 has a point. In North America, only the higher end models come with Active PFC, which often means they are more efficient. Just remember that this is a general tendancy, not a hard and fast rule.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:11 pm 
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Also, consider the power equation. For AC circuits is is Vrms x Irms x cos(0) where 0 is theta.

EU versions use 240V of electricity.

"American" versions use 120V of electricity. Both are RMS values.

EU versions of PSU's usually use around 5A of current.

"American" versions usually use around 10A of current.

So, theoretically the versions would be exactly the same in terms of power input and output with all factors equal.

However, "American" versions use 60Hz, whereas EU versions use 50Hz.

That's a 10Hz difference. That is 10 cycles (peak-to-peak) less for the EU version per second, and 600 (60 sec * 10Hz) less per minute. That's 36,000 (600 * 60 min) less per hour, and 864,000 (36,000 * 24 hrs.) less per day. So while 10Hz doesn't mean a whole lot, it adds up.

If I were to theorize, I would say that this means that the "American" versions of PF or non PF as well as efficiency would always be higher because it is receiving a more steady supply of current and voltage, and doesn't have to wait as long before receiving the next burst of energy. In other words, the components inside don't discharge as much and can convert the energy much more in the peak curve of their efficiency.

I equate this like a discharging battery. The more a battery weakens, the more heat it produces compared to its power output because it has to work much harder to maintain its output. Maybe that's not the real way it works, but to me its a simple picture. :)

Perhaps either an electrical engineer or someone who has tested EU and "American" PSU's can attest to this fact.

So, my point is that comparing an "American" PSU to an EU version, unless using 50Hz, does not work. A non-PF "American" version would almost surely beat any EU version merely because of the difference in frequency.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:39 pm 
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On the other hand, the higher input voltage means that the input current is less, which means less total heat is lost. This means that operating a power supply in the EU is likely to be more efficient than the same power supply in North America. I believe this has been observed in testing, but I can't remember my source at the moment.

However, this will be verified once we finally begin testing at 240V. Unfortunately, I don't think there's an easy way of obtaining 50 Hz power out of an ordinary Canadian home, so our tests will have to be at 240V / 60 Hz.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:44 pm 
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Agreed. Comparing just the currents would come to that conclusion. However, the frequency has got to be a huge factor in terms of the efficiency. Its the only thing that's left. :)

I think you guys *could* get a frequency converter, but I'm not sure how much they cost and how hard they are to implement.

BUT, I think that would be a great test to truly see how a PSU would function under different conditions, as these new full-range PSU's start to become a big hit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:39 pm 
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I'm generally very pleased with the S12-430 which I bought in the UK recently. Its fan stays on around 890rpm so it is the quietest moving component in my case I think, with a gentle hum which is less perceptible than the case fans (stock Sonata 120mm fan on 5V; Pabst 24V fan on 5V)and lower pitched than a hard drive.

Some points of difference from the review though (these comments obviously relate only to the particular model which I possess - ymmv):
* the voltage stablility is not perfect, the voltages 'wander around' their average values by +/-50mV all the time - other PSUs I have used in the past (Antec; Hiper) have been more stable in that regard
* +12V is more like 12.3V (measured on two different motherboards) and +5V is more like 4.85V.
These issues are not really a problem in practice, a motherboard has its own power smoothing circuitry and +/- 5% tolerance in the PSU voltage is fine. But it is not quite the quality I was hoping for, and clearly less good than Antec which has rock-steady voltages.

More significantly, on my unit I do not appear to have the following connectors:
18" auxiliary 12V connector
19" auxiliary 4x12V connector (for dual CPU boards)

On my motherboard (DFI LanParty nf2) I need the auxiliary 12V connector and I have had to jury-rig my own using the detachable 4 pin connector from the 20pin->24pin ATX connector - that 4 pin connector carries +5V and +3.3V as well, which I've had to remove to make my kludge.

This seems a very surprising omission - has anybody else seen this or do I have a faulty unit?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:07 pm 
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Um, the omission of the 2x8 is for EPS (dual-CPU workstations) is, I believe, ok for the 430.

However, the omission of the 2x4 12V connector is, in my opinion, a major problem. You should not have to make your own 2x4 connector in this day and age.

I would contact Seasonic or the place of purchase (Probably too late now, because you did modify your PSU, so your warranty might be out if you can't get the connectors back to a previously "unmodified" state).

Just my .02c worth.

As for the voltages, try measuring these from the PSU directly, and not from the motherboard sensors. My sensors change depending on temp of the motherboard (although very little) and the load on which I have going.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:54 pm 
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inti wrote:
More significantly, on my unit I do not appear to have the following connectors:
18" auxiliary 12V connector
19" auxiliary 4x12V connector (for dual CPU boards)

The first is bizarre. No idea what model you have, but I have not seen a single ATX PSU w/o a 2x12V (AUX12V) connector in at least 3 years. The second "omission" is not an ommission at all. It's only included on PSUs that are meant for use with dual CPU boards, and this usually means conformance to EPS12V. The S12-430 is not supposed to have a 4x12V connector.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:58 pm 
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Ok. Glad to see that I wasn't alone on thinking that the omission of the ATX12V was weird. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:16 am 
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Well, my new Seasonic S12 430 has just arrived. It is the latest, revised version and it definitely has a standard ATX 12v (4P) connector, and a Dual CPU 12v (8P) connector. On first sight, the main power connector looks to be 24 pin but it is actually two connectors, 20 pin and 4 pin, clipped together. The 4 pin connector is identical to the ATX 12v connector apart from the colours of the wires. A neat alternative to an adaptor in my opinion, but potentially confusing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:36 am 
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I am confused.
I want to know how you monitor the RPM of the PSU internal 120mm fan?
I plugged the connector that looks like it should atach to one of the motherboard fan headers (3 pin header on the motherboard). That connector I am talking about has 1 black and 1 blue wire attached to it (and it has 3 holes in it). It exactly fits on the motherboard fan headers.
So I tried plugging that connector to one of those fan headers, but it does not register on the motherboard (if I plugged a regular fan into the exact same header on the motherboard, it will register the regular fan RPM.) So once again , when I plug in the blue and black wired connector to a known good motherboard header, I get no RPM readout.

So my question is , is the blue and black wired connector supposed to go to one of those motherboard 3 pin fan controlling headers, to get the RPM readout? What am I doing wrong? Is there something wrong with my power supply RPM blue and black wired connector? Is this what that connector is for? Is there some test I could do on it with a voltmeter or something?

Is my connector wired correctly? It has the blue wire and the black wire each in the number 1 and number 3 position, with no wire in the center position.

Thanks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:59 am 
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Oliver,

If you have any other fan connectors on your motherboard, you should try those too. Even, just for the sake of it, try putting it on your CPU fan header.

The connector DOES go onto the fan headers, but some motherboards don't register a fan speed that low.

My motherboard, for instance, gives me an error at bootup for my CPU fan which is a Nexus 1000 RPM fan. However, it reads the speed just fine. So the BIOS has some hidden limit for the low threshold of the CPU fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:10 pm 
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When plugged into the CPU fan header, I don't think it even triggers the below a certain speed alarm in the bios, let alone give an actual slow RPM reading.

Is there anything I could tell by putting a multimeter to the 2 wires?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:17 pm 
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Honestly, I don't know about that one.

Maybe try another motherboard? Or, just perhaps, your fan monitoring circuit is out. How long have you had the PSU? Perhaps either RMA it to your retailer that you bought it from or ask Seasonic for some help?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:15 pm 
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I know with certainty that the motherboard monitors the fan speed at the cpu header because I have plugged in the cpu fan there and it shows RPM (don't remember if it shows below 1000). But I do remember it would give warning at boot up if the fan speed was too low. So there is something with the power supplies blue and black wired lead I think.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:56 pm 
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It does monitor, but only for certain motherboards. If the RPM reads too low, then most motherboards will just ignore it. And the RPM is in fact too low for most motherboards to read.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:21 pm 
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The blue/black-wired connector on my S12-430 provides PSU fan speeds when plugged into any fan header on the Abit AI7 MB - when read by MBM5. I was less successful getting Abit's uGuru to recognize it. But I've given up on that software since switching to MBM5. Speedfan was not able to read any data from Abit sensors.

Regarding the wire positions in the connector: if you looked at the connector with the wires running toward you and the small locator prongs up, then the blue wire is on the left (same as the yellow wire in a typical red/black/yellow connector) and the black wire is on the right.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:40 am 
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Thanks.
I will have take another look at the situation, then post back.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:17 am 
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If you are using SpeedFan, you could try to change the fan divisors (Configure -> Advanced-tab). Most likely you'll see 2 or 4, try setting to 8 or 16.

Similar options might also be found in some other monitor programs.

Cheers,

Jan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:28 pm 
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The new Seasonics seem to have some compatibility issues with DFI motherboards.


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 Post subject: 430 and PCI Express card?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:45 am 
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Hi!

Is it possible to use this PSU with a Geforce 6800 PCI Express card installed?

/Dm0Nx


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:50 am 
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Definitely! You'll need to use the supplied cable adaptor though.

Welcome to SPCR!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Ahh, thanks!

I just read that only the 500 and 600 models supported PCI Express, but i thought it had to be some adaptor available for the 430.

Can the Seasonic S12-430 (SS-430HB Active PFC) handle the Geforce 6800 ULTRA PCI Express card or am I limited to the less power hungry versions?

Does anyone know how "Q-Technology 400W 120MM Fan Gold Series" or "ElanVital PowerSupply (PSU) 400W Greenerger EVP-4007" holds up in comparison of the "Seasonic S12-430 (SS-430HB Active PFC)"?

/Dm0Nx


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:28 pm 
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Dm0Nx wrote:
Does anyone know how "Q-Technology 400W 120MM Fan Gold Series" or "ElanVital PowerSupply (PSU) 400W Greenerger EVP-4007" holds up in comparison of the "Seasonic S12-430 (SS-430HB Active PFC)"?

/Dm0Nx

yes


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