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 Post subject: Re: Seasonic S12-430: Beyond the Super Tornado
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:21 am 
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MikeC wrote:


I picked up the S12-430 at the Yongsan Electronics Market in Seoul a few days ago. It came with a 6pin PCI-E connector, but, did not come with a 24p to 20p ATX adapter. Fortunately my dead Enermax came with it, so I was saved :-)

I bought it for 97,000won, or roughly $97 -- which is a good price, considering NewEgg sells it for $99 and there is a automatic $15 charge when shipping to a U.S. military base in Korea.

Just wanted to note that some packages do come with a PCI-E graphic connector. The box doesn't really tell me why this one should be chosen to include it.

Great PSU.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:43 am 
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i want to buy the S12-330 in Canada.

What does HB mean? Is this the newer version?
S12-330HB
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php? ... lectronics

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:42 am 
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roo wrote:
i want to buy the S12-330 in Canada.

What does HB mean? Is this the newer version?
S12-330HB
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php? ... lectronics

Seems like it is just the standard model designating. The last "version" I've heard about is the A2, which was the reviewed changed to an Adda ball-bearing fan + Japanese electrolytic capacitors.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:54 am 
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Hi Mike,

MikeC wrote:
roo wrote:
i want to buy the S12-330 in Canada.

What does HB mean? Is this the newer version?
S12-330HB
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php? ... lectronics

Seems like it is just the standard model designating. The last "version" I've heard about is the A2, which was the reviewed changed to an Adda ball-bearing fan + Japanese electrolytic capacitors.


Hmmm... My A1 version has the "correct" stickers on the box.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:51 am 
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i don't see A1/A2 anywhere on that page...

keep in mind also they don't have it in stock, they have to order it, so i presume chances are better that i'll get the newer version.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:12 pm 
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I noticed in the review Mike said that there wasn't a PCI-E VGA connector. If there is a later model out, does it have one.

In otherwords, are the 430's that are shipping now equipped with a PCI-E connector.

-Kevin

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:14 am 
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Seasonic S12 does not use any high quality Japanese capacitors at all, the caps used in the S12 430W are all made by OST, Taiwan Ostor Corporation in Taiwan which is a known "badcap" manufacturer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I have a thread on http://www.badcaps.net on this with many pictures that you can see here: http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1202

But this picture really tells it all, this is of a S12 430W the new model with modular 24pin ATX connector and ADDA fan:
Image

And here are two striking quotes from this review here at Silent PC Review by MikeC: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article226-page4.html
Quote:
Long-lived Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor - Apparently, higher quality Japanese aluminum electrolytic capacitors are now used for greater reliability and stable performance. More common China-made capacitors must have been used before, as is typical of most PSUs. There have been major incidents of electronics, including motherboards, affected by leaking capacitors sourced from China starting from ~2 years ago.

Quote:
I did see a couple of Japanese capacitors but no photo was taken.

And if you compare this picture that is of the new unit in the review here at SPCR with the ones from my picture they indeed look identical so I do not think it is that Seasonic changed capacitor brands...
Image


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Last edited by Per Hansson on Sun May 11, 2014 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Quote:
Seasonic S12 does not use any high quality Japanese capacitors at all, the caps used in the S12 430W are all made by OST, Taiwan Ostor Corporation in Taiwan which is a known "badcap" manufacturer


That may well be, but how many people do you know whose S12's have suffered capacitor failure? And even if they do fail, the S12's have a 3-year manufacturer's warranty to fall back on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:39 pm 
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Hi Jaganath,

but consider this... How many people that have computers have read about the bad caps that affected PC components? I think quite a few. When Seasonic prints that kind of a text on their marketing, some people will think "so this shouldn't have those nasty caps".

And besides, isn't it against the law to market a product with a certain feature that it doesn't have? (Assuming this thing is as it looks to be).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Quote:
isn't it against the law to market a product with a certain feature that it doesn't have?


In that case virtually every fan and power supply manufacturer/retailer should be sued for misrepresentation and false advertising (so many fans and power supplies claim to be silent, and are not; so many fans and power supplies have false or misleading technical specs).

I must say, I was very surprised by the extent to which computer parts manufacturers are allowed to lie about their product; there doesn't seem to be any global or national body policing advertising in the computer industry. You don't get this level of misrepresentation from supermarkets, or when buying bicycles or just about any other consumer good, which is one of the main reasons that SPCR exists, to cut through all the manufacturers' bull**** and tell consumers how it really is, whether so-and-so's fan really is as quiet as they claim (usually the answer is no).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:51 pm 
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Hi Jaganath,

but fan specs and PSU noise specs can be easily "prooved". They don't say how they measure. All of those PSUs that are marketed silent are probably silent when they measure from a long enough distance or at 5W PSU power draw. I remember there was new ruling in UK that re-defined what kind of BS specs the fan relabellers can print, and what is actually defined a new fan. So I'm hoping that will change eventually.

My point is, lying a about a cap being japanese is different from saying a PSU has a 14dB fan.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:13 pm 
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jaganath wrote:
A ) I don't think it says anywhere on the S12 packaging that the caps in the PSU are of Japanese origin. I may be wrong about this as I do not own an S12.

Indeed. So either Seasonic changed the capacitors they're using or there lies a problem with SPCR's article. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Wait a sec... it says this on the retail box:

Image

Is there a line on their website or somewhere that those are supposed to be japanese caps? Or just on SPCR?

OK, anyway, I'm not sure if it matters or not, the S12's haven't been sold long enough to properly know if there is a problem with the caps. I'm not even sure are we having this discussion about S12 cap reliability for a totally non-existing reason? :lol:

But you're correct, this isn't too relevant to the end user if the PSUs work OK for their warranty time and preferably after it. But if they don't... Well, someone will say "how come no one caught this when they came out?"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:17 pm 
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gamingphreek wrote:
I noticed in the review Mike said that there wasn't a PCI-E VGA connector. If there is a later model out, does it have one.

In otherwords, are the 430's that are shipping now equipped with a PCI-E connector.

-Kevin


Mine did, but I bought it in S. Korea. As I noted in a prior reply to this topic, nothing on the box indicated a newer model number or revision... it just came with PCI-E. It's really a good idea to ship a new revision with it anyhow, and it isn't rocket-science to do so. So depending on the stocks where you are at, they could have the newer PCI-E revision...

re: bad caps. why would OST continue manufacturing bad capacitors if they got their name dirtied? Are they still? And yes, when someone buys a PC component, the warranty is noted, and once it fails after that, well, it is time to buy a newer one with better PFC, efficiency, and the latest and greatest connectors of the time. 3 years is a long time to pass in the computer world.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:24 pm 
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In this review on Virtual Hideout the S12 430 uses a different capacitor brand. Is anyone able to identify them? I am pretty sure that they are not OST's. You can get a better picture quality at the site.

Image

3 years is a very short life for a capacitor. I have seen failed PSU capacitors destroying the motherboard so it is not "only to buy a new PSU" or get a replacement through warranty. In fact, a capacitor should never fail at all.

I guess we all have to open up our Seasonics now? :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:27 pm 
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Quote:
In fact, a capacitor should never fail at all.


Do you mean:

1) should never fail within the normal useful lifetime of the average PSU

or

2) should never fail ever, ever in a million years?

Obviously 1 is correct but 2 is not. Over a long enough timescale eventually the electrolyte in the capacitor will evaporate and the unit will fail.

Here's another picture of the non-OST caps:

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:57 am 
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jaganath wrote:
1) should never fail within the normal useful lifetime of the average PSU
or
2) should never fail ever, ever in a million years?

The equipment should die because of something else first. Coffee, incompetent technician/user, bad luck, whatever.

The photo you have got shows a 500 or 600W S12 Seasonic. It is of a different design than the S12 430W. You can see two PSU's lined up at www.64bit.se. A 430W is to the left, a 600W to the right. Note the different heat sinks, PCB colour and 'mirrored' layout.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:38 am 
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jaganath; the thing about failing capacitors is that they can be very dangerous, when a capacitor fails it can even short itself or just plain stop working... See this thread for example, I think this guy is glad those failed caps did not end up burning his house down...

And about the useful life of a capacitor, I have never seen failed caps of the known good brands even in equipment that is well over 30 years old

The thing was that I read the review here at SPCR and expected to get Japanese capacitors, so rightfully I got quite dissapointed when infact they where not. however I did notice the fact that Seasonic never said they where Japanese, only of higher quality...

The thing with powersupplies is that it is very difficult to know what capacitors they have when you buy them, and if you open up the case to look you void the warranty. Plus they are very dangerous to work on for inexperienced people, therefore most blown caps in powersupplies goes undetected, sure, the computer starts crashing more often, and the voltage monitor on the mainboard starts showing the voltages fluctuating, so the user buys a new 450w powersupply for 25$ and problem is solved, for another 18 months... (how many of these threads have you not seen on forums on the internet BTW?)

Stjopatron; the capacitors in the picture you posted are made by the Chemicon group (Nippon Chemi-con, Europe Chemi-con or United Chemi-con) (they are the same)

kuril; Trust me, OST still makes bad capacitors

Seasonic replied to my e-mail. Here it is, e-mail addresses removed.

Quote:
Dear Sir

Seasonic has led the high quality bulk capacitors in since the Super series even at
the moment that most PSUs still use a China-made capacitor. In fact, for the main
capacitor, we always use a well-noted Hitachi bulk capacitor. To promote this
advantage, we stated the "Long-lived aluminum electrolytic capacitors" in the
subsequent S12 series. That means more and more reliable caps were used and made our
S12 series among those power supplies that used most high quality caps in the world.

Due to the fact of possible shortages attributed by limited suppliers, we therefore
be very conservative to our statement and never intend to mislead end users.
Therefore we never express the usage of high capacitors as "100% Japan Made
Capacitors".
In addition, when more and more Japanese caps were used gradually, there is no
additional charge on the selling price.
The unit you got maybe a early product. However, Seasonic's 3-year warranty will
never be discounted.

Thanks for your understanding.

Best Regards,
Support Team
Sea Sonic Electronics Co., Ltd.

EDIT; Lastly, see the Class Action Lawsuit Against ABIT, they actually lost in court due to using too cheap capacitors on their mainboards...
EDIT2; I was just informed that there has been a similar lawsuit against MSI http://www.msisettlement.com/ Thanks AK0R of Badcaps.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:14 am 
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I agree, bad caps seem to be an industry-wide problem.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:36 am 
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I have started a new thread on this here as I think this issue really deserves it. So we might have to go through this all over again…
Per, the reply from Sesonics indicates at least that you have still got your 3 yr. warranty! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:14 am 
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Stjopatron wrote:
I have started a new thread on this here as I think this issue really deserves it. So we might have to go through this all over again…
Per, the reply from Sesonics indicates at least that you have still got your 3 yr. warranty! :lol:

I'm reposting a reply by me from that thread here:

I think I just got it, the manufacturer of the big primary side 400v capacitor is Hitachi. And if you reread the e-mail I got from Seasonic that I posted in this thread.
Quote:
Dear Sir

Seasonic has led the high quality bulk capacitors in since the Super series even at
the moment that most PSUs still use a China-made capacitor. In fact, for the main
capacitor, we always use a well-noted Hitachi bulk capacitor. To promote this
advantage, we stated the "Long-lived aluminum electrolytic capacitors" in the
subsequent S12 series. That means more and more reliable caps were used and made our
S12 series among those power supplies that used most high quality caps in the world.

Due to the fact of possible shortages attributed by limited suppliers, we therefore
be very conservative to our statement and never intend to mislead end users.
Therefore we never express the usage of high capacitors as "100% Japan Made
Capacitors".
In addition, when more and more Japanese caps were used gradually, there is no
additional charge on the selling price.
The unit you got maybe a early product. However, Seasonic's 3-year warranty will
never be discounted.

Thanks for your understanding.

Best Regards,
Support Team
Sea Sonic Electronics Co., Ltd.

You understand what they are talking about, it's not a coincidence that they write "Long-lived Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor" that I first thought was only poor English, i.e. one Capacitor instead of several Capacitors because they are only referring to the "bulk" Hitachi Primary side Capacitor!!! They never mention the smaller 16v, 10v etc secondary side capacitors...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:17 pm 
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So basically, the cheap caps are the ones that don't matter?

Meh. I'm fine with that. I bet that all the other companies use the cheap ones for everything.

And... do they now come with Pci-e? Do I not need to buy the adapter? Looking to get this PSU, confused on this one thing though. The 500W version is out of my budget, anyway.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:25 am 
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Overconfidence wrote:
So basically, the cheap caps are the ones that don't matter?

Meh. I'm fine with that. I bet that all the other companies use the cheap ones for everything.

And... do they now come with Pci-e? Do I not need to buy the adapter? Looking to get this PSU, confused on this one thing though. The 500W version is out of my budget, anyway.

No, I do not understand how you could have misunderstood me like that.

The smaller caps are used to filter the 3,3v 5v and 12v sent to the computer. It is vital that these voltages are smooth otherwise your computer will crash, especially so if the mainboard itself uses capacitors that are of less than stellar performance...

IMHO it is more important to use high quality capacitors for the secondary side (meaning 12v 5v and 3,3v side) than the Primary side (meaning 230/110v side)

Of course good caps overall is what you want.

Yes, the new units come with PCIe connector, look for revision A2... There is probably some text on the box itself that it has a PCIe connector...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:34 am 
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Just bought my second Seasonic S12 430w PSU... To my disappointment this was also a revision A1 model, so no PCIe GFX connector... however the caps are a different matter:

Image
Every single cap is made by the Nippon Chemi-con group, except one small Rubycon cap :)


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Last edited by Per Hansson on Sun May 11, 2014 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Seasonic SS-430HB/S
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:55 am 
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I was just wondering if you guys could shed some light on this. I'm living in Osaka, Japan and I came across two types of Seasonic S12 430W models. One is the SS-430HB and the other is the SS-430HB/S. I know that OwlTech are distributing these Seasonic PSUs. The HB/S is slightly more expensive by 2,000 yen. I haven't found any solid information about what's improved... my Japanese reading skills are pretty poor, but from what I can read on the box (HB/S) is that it has an extra sticker saying that it includes a two ball-bearing fan or something... but I don't know whether if this is the same that's mentioned in the new revision of the 430HB.. A2? I also noticed that both the HB and HB/S have the PCI-e Connector logos along the bottom of the box, I'm assuming these are new revision...? I can't find any mention about rev. A1 or A2 anywhere on the boxes.

I just ran a google search on this model and it can be found here:

Seasonic SS-430HB/S
http://www.owltech.co.jp/products/power ... S-HBS.html

My Kanji reading is pretty bad, but I think the site states that the HB/S uses a Sanyo-Denki 12cm fan.


Can anyone give me more information about this HB/S model and how it differs to the HB. Ultimately, I'm just looking to buy the quieter version. Many thanks.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:36 am 
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Google translate is your friend

http://www.google.com/translate_t

It seems it has a different fan that according to the text has twice the airflow, I also think that the other S12 model does not use a dual layer PCB like they mention in one of the pictures...

In the link you provide they also show in the pics at the bottom that it does not have a PCIe connector...

It might be an "80 Plus" model, because they do not have the black color of the other S12 Seasonics...

On the other hand on my Rev:A1 box is also the PCIe connector logo but under that text it says applies only to 500 and 600w models, and it also says it uses a "120mm Cyclone Cooling fan; Doubles the air flow and lifetime with half the RPM and noise."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:26 pm 
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Hi,

what is the latest revision of S12-430 (A1, A2, ...)?

Thanks :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:36 pm 
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A2


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:58 am 
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All italian stores sell the S12-430HT rather than S12-430HB...is there any difference between the two versions?

Thanks :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:13 am 
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automatic jack wrote:
All italian stores sell the S12-430HT rather than S12-430HB...is there any difference between the two versions?

Thanks :)


There's no such thing at Seasonic's website.
http://www.seasonic.com/product/pc_atx.jsp

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