Antec P180 Review, Part 2: The Whole Nine Yards

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:08 pm

alexo wrote:I was previously considering the SLK3000B. However, the comparison between the cases, especially page 10, seems to suggest that, while the P180 is quiet, the SLK3000B is not.

So, my question is, are there cases out there with good thermal and acoustic characteristics or is the P180 the only game in town?

In itself, a case is not really "quiet". The P180 has some properties that make it a better enclosure for components that are already quiet (esp. the HDD mounting), but the biggest influence on system noise is almost always the noise-making components themselves. This case just lets you squeeze that much more out of what you already have.

Take a look at Comparison One again. You'll find that, with the right components, the SLK3000B is almost as good as the P180. Although I do prefer the noise from the P180 because it sounds smoother and less noticable, component for component the SLK3000B doesn't fare that badly. It's certainly no P180, but the P180 has raised the bar for cases. There are simply no other cases like it.

alexo wrote:What other cases support such decoupled muonting in a reasonable straightforward way (read: even if I got two left hands)?

None. With respect to HDD decoupling, the P180 is indeed "the only game in town". I do hear the Sonata II has fairly soft mounting grommets, but they're only part of the package. The P180's ability to silence hard drives depends as much on its non-resonant panels as it does on the soft silicone grommets.

When it comes right down to it, any case can be made silent, it's just a matter of how much work it will take to achieve it. Prior to the P180, the SLK3000B was probably the option that required the least amount of work to achieve silence. Now the P180 holds that title, but the SLK3000B is still an very good product. In fact, it may even be a better product if you are concerned more about overclocking your VGA card than silence.

Get your priorities straight, figure out what you want (and what you're willing to give up to achieve it), and you should be able to figure out whether you can work with the SLK3000B.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:14 pm

thetoad30 wrote:That's exactly what I'm finding out as well. My "motherboard" temperature is reported about as high as my CPU Temp at idle now...40-47C, but I CANNOT touch the northbridge HS without a nice burn at load. And the temp probe that I have on the heatsink as far to the center and down in the fins as I can get, shows a hefty 65C at load.

Do I need to get a better HS, or are these temps ok?

Thank you

The ultimate test of cooling effectiveness is probably stability. Is your system stable? If it is, you probably don't have much to worry about. Keep in mind that all the silicon chips in your computer have roughly the same heat tolerance; the different "allowable" temperatures for each chip are a function of how they are measured. It's quite difficult to determine what an appropriate temperature for a northbridge is, especially when, AFAIK, there is no industry standard for the placement of the thermal diode or how it is reported (there's enough difficulty reporting CPU temps correctly!).

That said, your "finger test" doesn't sound too promising. If you're concerned about the long-term life of your motherboard, you may want to consider other options, perhaps a slow 5V fan directed at it?

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:46 pm

I thought about that. I also thought about putting a fan into the VGA duct as it sits right over my northbridge and video card HS.

But, I know that will add lots of resonance and noise to my system, and I would rather not do that.

I'm wondering if adding a slow fan to the front of the case might actually help it to breathe, as right now my cables are a mess at that part of the case (4 HDs in the bottom.).

First I gotta get a new video card though... mine finally crapped out last night. RMA here I come!

Hopefully I'll be able to get a replacement soon and get something up and running.

One more question: When mounting the fan on the Scythe, did you guys leave the fan above the fastener tabs, or did you put the metal things below the tabs? I couldn't tell from the picture, and I can't seem to tell from the instructions.

Thanks for all your help!

jpt · Post by **jpt** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:32 pm

Thanks for the excellent review, especially the comparisons with the SLK3000B. As I don't plan to be running four hard drives or a noisy PSU, you convinced me that the 3000 will be quite sufficient for the rig I'm about to get (my first quiet PC!).

And long reviews are great -- give me something to do during those long compiles

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:14 pm

thetoad30 wrote:One more question: When mounting the fan on the Scythe, did you guys leave the fan above the fastener tabs, or did you put the metal things below the tabs? I couldn't tell from the picture, and I can't seem to tell from the instructions.

Thanks for all your help!

Above (most of the time).

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:16 pm

I think the SLK3000B is a pretty darn good case, if you ditch the hard drive rack and install an elastic suspension rig to hold your hard drives. In my experience, the hard drive rack in the 3000B is it's achilles heel, especially with high-vibration hard drives (like the awful new Seagate I recently bought.)

Check out the link in my sig for some pictures of a similar case, outfitted with my hard drive suspension rack. The LX-6A19 is almost identical (in dimensions) to the SLK3000B.

*EDIT* Don't get me wrong, I think the P180 is an incredible case, but if money is tight and you want the next best thing, I think the SLK3000B is a very good option.

turbominnow · Post by **turbominnow** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:16 pm

Great review! Can we get a high rez pic of the p180 "stepping up to the mic"?

My commentary
When viewing the data it would seem that they only difference bewteen the p180 and the 3000b is type, frq?, of sound. Not only does the 3000b match the spl but beats the p180 in gpu cooling. It would also seem that the 3000b could take advantage of a fanless ps and it wont have the cable managment problems, weight, or size issues. According to price watch you can pick up a 3000b for 52 shipped or a p180 for 133 shipped (black for 170+ship).

So what am I getting for the extra 78 (or 118 for black)? Tough call, would be neat to compare aganist a super lanboy.

xarope · Post by **xarope** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:07 pm

IMHO I think the P180 is the best out-of-the-box solution for cooling+silence, with some minor mod necessary (e.g. taping up the PSU vent holes and removing that VGA duct). There are 3 main areas it offers:

1) compartmentalization without changing MB orientation (aka Lian Li Vx000 series). I think the P180 does this very well, without requiring the MB be mounted on the RHS. Most other cases do not offer this alternative at all (e.g. mounting PSU at bottom).

2) HDD grommets; again, you could get your own suspension solution, but that's more $$$ and time.

3) "plastic" panels; I'm surprised no one has said more about these panels, they really are muffled when knocked, compared to steel and aluminium, and just think again of the extra expense and time of sticking on some sort of deadening material (not just heavy carpet or foam, but I'm thinking like sorbathane material).

[edit] don't know why I said "heavy space carpet", surprised nobody asked me what that was...

[/edit]

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:51 pm

turbominnow wrote:When viewing the data it would seem that they only difference bewteen the p180 and the 3000b is type, frq?, of sound. Not only does the 3000b match the spl but beats the p180 in gpu cooling. It would also seem that the 3000b could take advantage of a fanless ps and it wont have the cable managment problems, weight, or size issues. According to price watch you can pick up a 3000b for 52 shipped or a p180 for 133 shipped (black for 170+ship).

So what am I getting for the extra 78 (or 118 for black)? Tough call, would be neat to compare aganist a super lanboy.

The SLK3000B is a good case, we don't recommend it highly for nothing!

But... "type, frq?, of sound" is fundamental to quiet computing. Try getting that from the 3000 w/o spending more money in materials, plus time & effort.

As the review showed with the S. Silencer PSU, the amount of heat fed back into the PSU in the 3000 is dramatically high compared to how much heat goes into the same PSU in the P180. In a nutshell, the PSU in the P180 only has to handle the 50W or so of its own internally generated heat, thereby staying pretty quiet, the fan not ramping up. In the 3000, it handles that PLUS say 50% of the heat rising up off the CPU and VGA. Call it 125W.

And even if you did get the PSU fan to behave in the 3000, this does not mean it's not subject to that extra heat -- you'd just be running the fan slower and the PSU hotter. (And a fanless PSU would be subject to the same amount of rising heat.)

Then what about the panel vibrations? OK, toss in >$50 worth of heavy internal damping materials and the time/effort to apply it to stop that.

There's not much contest, especially for a more powerful rig, is there?

I guess I am repeating much of what xarope already wrote more succintly?

(Lanboy? Come on, you gotta be kidding. The 3000 beats it easy and the P180 kills it. It's aluminum! It doesn't even make the bottom of our Recommended Cases list.)

ATWindsor · Post by **ATWindsor** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:05 am

I missed tha last poll option, for a even longer review

Don't get me wrong it was a smashing review, but If I could anything just as I wanted, I would have liked a couple of more pages on the "medium" system.

Great work Devon

AtW

Andreos · Post by **Andreos** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:50 pm

Hey folks, I'm a n00b here but I have been busy studying all your articles and configs for quite a while as I prepare to build my first machine, based on an Athlon X2 processor. I've been holding off to see how things go with the P180 and it looks like the box I want. (Thanks for the great review!)

My only point of concern relates to the power supply I had planned to use, the Seasonic S12-430. I am very nervous about the short cable issue since I will need to use all 3 PCI slots in my new machine. My mobo is the Gigabyte GA-K8N Ultra-9, which has passive Northbridge cooling, and the power connector is on the top right edge of the board, which should help somewhat. The ATX connector is at the top as in the review. Since this computer is for Photoshop I'll be using a Radeon X300 video card with passive cooling. Also the PCI cards are pretty short, they don'y extend past the PCI sockets. So I am thinking I might be able to pull things off with the power cable by routing across the lower right corner of the mobo, and route the ATX12V beneath in the same fashion as the review. What do you fine folks think? Or can you you recommend a power supply in the same league as the Seasonic that has longer cables (and doesn't cost much more)? Or, is there such a thing as a cable extender (and where would I get such a beast)?

TIA for any inputs!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:16 pm

Go here. Many cables and I'm sure one of them will be what you want.

Andreos · Post by **Andreos** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 pm

thetoad30 wrote:Go here. Many cables and I'm sure one of them will be what you want.

Wooooo... thanks man!

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:01 pm

Sure thing. Just to let you know, I ordered before 3pm two days in a row and with priority mail (2-3 days shipping) I got the cheapest shipping, and the fastest. It was here in 2 days from my order date, and it was sent out on the date I ordered. Very fast service if you ask me.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:28 pm

When considering configuration 4 and subsequent configurations where the top vent is open, did you install the spoiler?

I ask because for me the spoiler is making or breaking about 6C for my CPU temp with the Ninja.

I have the fan on top blowing in, and the fan in back blowing out. Both are on low. I have a 3.4 Prescott. I did this to run the heatsink fanless. Seems to me its better to blow cold outside air onto the heatsink than warm internal air on it.

If I put the spoiler on, I get temps from 61-62C with 2xCPUBurn.

If I take the spoiler off, I get around 54-55C.

Does this seem really weird to anyone else? I don't change a thing, just put the spoiler on, then take it off.

Thank you

ddrueding1 · Post by **ddrueding1** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:45 am

Well if the spoiler has such a large impact, it would be nice to have some supporting info on at least the medium configuration. Strange to think it would have such a large effect.

jamevay · Post by **jamevay** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:15 pm

In Setup 4, Wouldnt it be better if the top vent fan is turned on and the rear fan off or removed. I am wondering if the top fan can suck the air out off the back off case

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 pm

Remember that the name of the game is quiet. So, they wanted to use the fans that are the farthest away and the most indirect to the user's ears. This is why they chose the back fan, IMHO.

I do think that had they used the top fan instead, they might have come to realise that the heat from the GPU would be sucked into the heatsink.

At least, that's what I found using only the top fan, or reversing the back fan and letting the top fan do the work.

I have found that putting the top fan at intake and the rear fan at exaughst has proven to give me the best results, CPU AND GPU temp-wise.

I currently have both fans on Medium, and although the noise is up there (I'm testing to see about the temps I would get if I replaced these fans with 2 Nexus), my temps are OUTSTANDING. I am getting a current CPU load of only 47C (Doom3) or 48-49C (2xCPUBurn). If I *remove* the spoiler and put both fans on low, I get a load of around 54-55C (2xCPUBurn).

I would love to run these fans on low, but, honestly, I like the looks and the protection of dropping screws into the case with the spoiler. So, I need a "just as quiet" fan, with almost 1.5x the airflow, and the Nexus seems to be the answer for now.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:52 pm

Ok. I am asking this question here because I'm using the P180 as a reference.

In the article, it said that decoupling the fans from the system using grommets seemed to help noise.

I was wondering what the best grommets are to use. I know there are EAR grommets and I have read TONS of articles on these, but I'm trying to find some simple yet cheap solutions that I can order here in the USA.

I was really wondering if they make any like Antec has, or if perhaps they have some made out of the material that Antec has used for the P180's hard drive cage.

For my own knowledge, what is the material in the hard drive cage? I know its not rubber, as its MUCH softer.

Thank you

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:44 pm

thetoad30 wrote:In the article, it said that decoupling the fans from the system using grommets seemed to help noise.

I was wondering what the best grommets are to use. I know there are EAR grommets and I have read TONS of articles on these, but I'm trying to find some simple yet cheap solutions that I can order here in the USA.

You can order the fan decouplers from www.mcmaster.com. They are much cheaper, there, although you have to order in large quantities (about $10 for a bag of 20.) I've ordered lots of parts from McMaster-Carr and they are an excellent reseller, although their shipping policy is a bit weird (they won't tell you the shipping charge, when you place the order, but they ship USPS Priority Mail, so it is always pretty cheap and pretty fast.)

Here's the McMcaster part numbers (thanks to Ralf Hutter.)

5801K6 for standard fans (most 25mm thick fans)
5801K8 for thick flanged fans (most 38mm thick fans)

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:00 pm

Verax offers a kit with zipties, mounts for open flange fans, closed flange fans, for around $16. More versatile, IMHO.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:30 pm

Ok. I couldn't find anything on Verax's website with anything like you described.

As for the McMaster parts, I don't think they are for the closed-corner fans like the Nexus... I *know* I could just cut the corners off... but I prefer not to do that...

I'm looking at the Nexus kit... BUT its $20 plus shipping so I don't know if I am going to do that yet.

Does anyone have anything against the Antec NoiseKillers that screw into the fans but have the silicone grommet between the head of the screw and the outside of the case?

Man, who knew silencing computers would be so hard?

Thank you

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:49 pm

Oh, I meant Nexus, I got confused because the "closed flange" sticks are a ripoff of Verax's.

Look at it this way: 4 sets of Verax sticks are $20. You get all that and more with the Nexus kit.

The "rubber grommet" kits generally don't work: The vibrations are still transmitted through the screws.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:09 pm

Ok, cool. I was thinking about that and you are right, I would rather get the Nexus kit as it seems to offer what I need... something to help with closed and opened flange fans.

I have the P180, and I need some advice. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see where I can use 4 "screws" or fan mounts for the bottom PSU chamber fan.

And, maybe I'm deaf, but I don't understand why the 38mm fan is not considered a good choice on low compared to a Nexus. If I look at the numbers, they appear to be reasonably close (3 CFM less for the Antec fan). Why does the characteristics of this fan make it not a good choice?

Remember I'm new to this!!!

Thank you

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:13 pm

I don't know much about the fans in the P180 (not having it myself), but I've heard it's easier to route cables down there with a thinner/no fan.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:15 pm

I would love to go no fan, but I have 4 WD 250GB drives down there and with the fan on low they reach around 35-40C. I want to keep them as cool as I can with as little noise as possible, and when I get 2 Nexus fans I was going to replace the 38mm with one of the TriCools from up top, and set it to low to see if that would do it.

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:43 pm

P.S. - Endpcnoise has the Nexus kit for $17

Freelancer77 · Post by **Freelancer77** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:57 pm

MikeC,

I want to thank you for your thorough replies to my questions from the 3rd of July. You guys do great work.

For the discussion about fans, I should just say that I'm using the three TriCool's as they came, running them all on low, plus a Zalman 80x15mm fan in the VGA duct running at 5v, and a Vantec stealth 120mm in the upper front as an intake also on 5v.

The CPU fan is a Freezer64, and the GPU is an ASUS 6600GT/TOP/128 with stock fan for now. I may look at a Zalman VGA cooler soon. The stock chipset HSF was yanked before it could bother me and a Zalman NB47J is doing the work silently.

With the front open (no grilles or filters), the idle temps are a sick 34C(CPU) and 32C (Case), and the fan on the Freezer is running at 640RPM.

I'm sure that if I replaced the TriCool fans with Nexus or Papst models and picked up some silicone gaskets and EAR mounts it would get quieter, but it's very quiet now.

I set SpeedFan to bring the CPU temp to 29C, and when the CPU fan passed 1750RPM I could tell it was in there, but not before. The heatsink doesn't even get warm. The hottest things in the entire box are the chassis of the Raptors in the bottom cage.

Bottom line, except for leaving the filters and grille doors off, this P180 is being run as intended straight out of the box, including the VGA duct, with the addition of two more fans. And it is very cool and quiet. The only "mods" I have done is to paint the face of the intake area black, and the minor work to allow SATA power cables to run along the bottom from PSU to hard drive cage. Both items were about aesthetics, not performance. So as delivered, the P180 succeeds at meeting its performance claims. It definitely sets a standard for other to meet or beat, and validates the revolution of non-standard case configurations ahead of BTX production. Let's see where it leads tomorrow.

thetoad30 · Post by **thetoad30** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:29 pm

Shadowknight wrote:P.S. - Endpcnoise has the Nexus kit for $17

Hehe... I know, I splurged after my last post and bought it.

A little pricy, but I figure I can "silence" more than just my computer with the included parts... A little pricey but what the hay.

Thanks for all your help!

ImJacksAmygdala · Post by **ImJacksAmygdala** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:00 pm

I just want to reply to the poll for the length of the article for now. HELL NO IT WASN'T TOO LONG! Where else am I going to get this kind of information on the net? I come to this site because SPCR is a site that first and foremost considers noise levels during a review. When I read a SPCR review I know I am going to find information that other review sites on the net neglect to mention during a review. As a result I know its going to be a longer and a more informative read. It is this level of attention to detail that separates SPCR from every other review site out there. Thank you. Thank you. (had to be said twice)

Antec P180 Review, Part 2: The Whole Nine Yards

This article is ~14,000 words and 12 pages long. Is it too long?

Re: What about alternatives cases?

Which power supply then?

What if the exhaust fan blows up?