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 Post subject: Shuttle's long awaited SD11G5 Pentium-M SFF
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:09 am 
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Shuttle's long awaited SD11G5 Pentium-M SFF -- yes, it was worth the wait.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:23 am 
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awesome article. Im really glad to see that shuttle has finally made a good, quiet SFF (I didnt like the zen because of the lack of upgrade options and the ATI chipset).
one thing though, the article hasnt been posted on the front page, its only accessible right now through this thread :lol:
great job as usual mike, your work for this site is amazing.
my only complaint about the case is that i wish they had used the p series chassis, so you could mount more HD's. But i guess that is what NAS is for.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:10 pm 
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Ooooh i want one!

My parrents computer just broke down, and they want me to build them a new one, and this would just be so perfect for them (even the Zen would be, but is it available still?).

I can't seem to find them in stock anywhere in Sweden though.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:18 pm 
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Great review! I'm pleased you did the nexus fan swap cause (as you said) it was such an obvious thing to do, and exactly what most people at SPCR would go for. :) It's nice to finally see a Pentum M shuttle out there, and one that is really worth getting. My only gripe is the traditional positioning of the PCI-E 16x slot at the outside of the box so you cannot fit a more bulky cooler on a vga card such as the arctic cooling variety. But even so I am very tempted!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:12 pm 
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This SFF looks just great, just add a Nexus!
I never expect a SFF to be perfect out of the box, so the mod couldn't be more easy! Well done, Mike!

Slightly offtopic, Shuttle M1000 review. Maybe something for the SPCR news?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:13 pm 
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Is it possible to fit something like a VF700 on the GPU? Anyway, its always possible to cut a hole in the side :roll: I really like this one :) I want more folding power.. quiet folding power.

One thing that annoys me is that i cant easily get 92mm fans in Finland for some reason.. almost every shop has 80mm and 120mm nexuses but not 92mm :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:35 pm 
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nici wrote:
One thing that annoys me is that i cant easily get 92mm fans in Finland for some reason.. almost every shop has 80mm and 120mm nexuses but not 92mm :(


Well, too bad for you. :( If anyone here would buy this Shuttle I'm sure they would swap fan sooner or later.
nici: gtek.se got 92 mm Nexus fans in Sweden, if that helps. I'd also check out Germany. Don't know about Nexus there, but maybe you can find them. For instance, a Thermalright XP-120 starts at €38.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Brilliant review, Brilliant system (except for the fan).

No more needs to be said.


Andy

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:58 pm 
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Location: Finland
Many thanks for the awesome review MikeC! This SFF looks like a winner.
Any info on availability (in Europe)?

nici wrote:
Is it possible to fit something like a VF700 on the GPU? Anyway, its always possible to cut a hole in the side :roll: I really like this one :) I want more folding power.. quiet folding power.

One thing that annoys me is that i cant easily get 92mm fans in Finland for some reason.. almost every shop has 80mm and 120mm nexuses but not 92mm :(


Indeed, that's my biggest complaint with the G5 chassis: the VF700 or ATI/NV Silencer won't fit in, courtesy of the stupid expansion slot arrangement. I wish I had any skill to mod the cover (and be able to look at it afterwards...) :?

I think at least Verkkokauppa.com sells 'em 92mm Nexuses. Here


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:06 pm 
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Thanks Mats and Wundi! I never noticed VK sells the 92mm nexus.. delivery time is 2-4weeks though, price 15.90€. The site says theres 6 of them in the store though.. i was there today and only saw 80mm nexuses. Ill have to go there tomorrow again :lol:

And not to drag this further off-topic, im also interested of availability and price in europe :) And cutting a hole in the side shouldnt be a major problem if it comes down to that, the case is aluminium right? easy to cut :) Just measure twice measure twice and cut once, the edges should be pretty easy to make smooth, if not then som rubber U-mould finishes it off nicely :) Teollisuuusetola has that for 67c/m if any Finns are interested :) www.etola.fi


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:58 pm 
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this thing looks awesome!

Anybody know if a 7800GT/GTX would fit inside?

Is the vcore adjustable in the BIOS?
165MHz is the max FSB? I guess I would have to mod the BIOS :)

This thing seems like the perfect lan rig.

DOTHAN POWA!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:18 pm 
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Location: Finland
Heh, I hope they manage to dig up some fans for you nici :)

vapb400: According to Shuttle's site, "the XPC SD11G5 has been tested compatible with the NVIDIA 7800GTX as well as other high-performance graphics cards."

And here's the nicest VGA Silencer mod for an XPC that I've seen: link
I'm not sure if it'd look as good on the white casing though. Not that I'd have the guts to assault the cover anyway, because I'm totally new to modding.. :|

The review said MSRP US$450. So I'm afraid this is going to be one of the more expensive Shuttle SFFs, I wouldn't expect to get it for much less than €500 when it comes out. Plus a 2GHz P-M sells for ~€300. The total cost of ownership is pretty salty eh? For comparison, a P180, S12-430, nf4 mobo, 2GHz A64 and a decent cooler would cost altogether ~€500. Worth the extra cost? Well, that's a decision people will have to make.
And what am I doing up at this hour, anyway.. :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:34 pm 
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Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
wundi wrote:
And what am I doing up at this hour, anyway.. :?


No idea :lol: For those of you too lazy to check time zones, its 5:30AM here.
Im up because i couldnt sleep, fell asleep 23:30 and woke up at 01 and didnt fall asleep again so i got out of bed and started to tinker with my computers :lol: Just got the old rig up and running, 2600+ t-bred at 2300mHz with 200mHz FSB, a little bit extra folding power :wink:

The AC Silencer modded shuttle you posted looked awesome :shock: Thats just what i meant with cutting out a piece of the side.

I dont need this thing for anything really, just want it its so damn cool :lol: Im telling myself itll pass.. Two desktop computers and a laptop is enough for surfing the web and some occasional gaming, right!?! :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:47 pm 
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Location: Sweden
And what am I doing up at this hour? Well, since you guys are still awake then it means that can be awake for at least one more hour (since I'm in Sweden) without any problems...

Yea, this SFF is going to be an expensive one. If I had one I'd make a new drive bay that's wider in the lower end (maybe not on the PCIE side) so I could suspend a 3.5" drive. Or would that make it too noisy? Well, I guess it would be a good idea in any other Shuttle... :?


Last edited by Mats on Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:48 pm 
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Think a VM-101 or a Thermalright V-1 would fit inside?

V-1 looks like a possibility.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Two questions:

1) How is Shuttle for reliability, esp. with hardware that's new to them?
2) Is it possible to fit a second 3.5" drive in that 3.5" external drive bay without exposing it to the outside? I'd like to put a second hard drive there, of course.

Thanks!


-j


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:21 pm 
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A V1 might fit... :)

I just f*cked something up with the other puter, i assume it had something to do with me re-partitioning with partition magic and something went wrong, it wouldnt start windows no matter what. Oh well, it needed a clean install anyway...reinstalling windows now...

Anyway, im off for work in about an hour. *yawn*


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:53 pm 
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Hello. I am Rik. I work at Shuttle's headquarters in Taiwan and I have joined SPCR forums to offer its members the chance to ask questions, give feedback directly to the company about the Sd11G5 or any other XPC.

We had 2 target audiences in mind when we were developing the XPC SD11G5:
Mainstream users wanting a silent PC -we think the default system configuration is silent enough to surpass the expectations of most users new to silent PC.

Silent PC veterans with the experience to mod the XPC SD11G5 to reach new levels of silent PC. Mike has already set the ball rolling with his fan swap, and we are eager to see what the rest of the silent PC community will do. If you think I can supply technical details to help you do this, ask and I will do my best to get you the information you need.

Responding to comments in the thread:
"My only gripe is the traditional positioning of the PCI-E 16x slot at the outside of the box so you cannot fit a more bulky cooler on a vga card"

All G chassis have this layout, and will almost certainly continue to do so. Putting the graphics slot on the inside would mean that in the intended configuration (both slots filled) the heat from the graphics card would be exhausted directly on to the second add-in card, and then into the rest of the case. In the P chassis, which has more room for air flow, and has specific cooling zones, this is less of an issue.

"Is it possible to fit a second 3.5" drive in that 3.5" external drive bay without exposing it to the outside? I'd like to put a second hard drive there, of course"

Yes, you can. In my own XPC I have used a set of 5.25" to 3.5" drive bay brackets so that I can install a 3rd hard drive in the optical bay.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:15 pm 
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I know a 3 pin fan gives RPM feedback, a 2 pin fan just provides power.

But what's a 4 pin fan? And are there 3pin -> 4 pin converters?

Seems like a temperature throttled (and BIOS configurable) Nexus would be very nice indeed..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:32 pm 
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From JMC's web site:
Quote:
Pulse Width Modulation (PWM)
The PWM fan speed control method adds an extra 4th wire to the connector. The 4th wire is a Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) input that provides a duty cycle to the fan. For example a 50% PWM duty cycle is a perfect square wave where 50% of the signal is high and 50% of the signal is low. A 50% PWM duty cycle applied to the 4th wire of the fan will result in a fan speed of half the total maximum fan speed. That is, if the fan is rated for 4000 RPM max, a 50% PWM duty cycle will result in the fan running at 2000 RPM. An 80% PWM signal applied to the fan is a square wave were 80% of the signal is high and 20% is low resulting in a fan speed proportional to the duty cycle as referenced to the maximum speed of the fan or blower.

More here: http://www.jmcproducts.com/products/pwm ... _faq.shtml

The problem with PWM is that depending on the frequency of the commutator signal (which can vary from a few thousand to >20KHz), it can cause clicking/buzzing, which combines with ball bearings to give you pretty nasty acoustic quality in many fans. The best solutions treat the PWM controller and the fan together as a single system. M-cube's T-balancer actually tackles generic fan speed control w/ minimal side effects by allowing the user to tailor the PWM circuit behavior to match the fan for best acoustic results -- while allowing speed control.

There have been umpteen discussions about PWM and related issues in the SPCR fan forums. Pls try searching around.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:33 pm 
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4-pin fans are PWM speed controlled fans. They are found almost exclusively on Intel-based chipsets. The fourth wire is a PWM signal that the motherboard uses to gain precise control over the speed of the fan. Unfortunately, the PWM regulation process tends to cause a nasty buzziness that is exhibited in this model. Fancier fan control circuits can and do use PWM to good effect, but I have yet to see a good PWM controller on a stock motherboard.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:52 am 
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thanks for the prompt review. this xpc looks great. it seems to be just about everything i wanted so i'll probably have to cough up the cash :roll: :lol:

a couple of questions, can you hear 2.5" HD noise over the nexus fan, and does the Al chassis resonate as badly as the zen?

MikeC / Rik: i'm a bit worried about that wacky squealing noise from the PSU, could i plug my zen's psu into this box and have that problem magically go away, whilst the system still operates as normal? i can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work..
    plug looks the same
    ok the zen's psu is lower capacity, but 220W appears to be overkill according to these power draw tests
    i presume the external brick doesn't do anything except output 'black box' 12V (although i can't explain why 6 pins are needed..?)
mike, could you try it with your zen? and, if it's not too much to ask, check whether the SD11G5 psu still whines when used with the zen? i'd be interested to know whether it was just an issue within the SD11G5 psu, or some sort of interplay between the psu and the xpc.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:10 am 
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Hey Rik, and welcome to the forum! I'm glad to see Shuttle taking interest in this community, it's definitely a good sign.
I must ask you too: would you happen to know of any shipping dates for SD11G5? :)

joemadeus wrote:
1) How is Shuttle for reliability, esp. with hardware that's new to them?

Having followed the Sudhian forums for some time, it seems to me that Shuttle's Intel based barebones have typically been very solid from the start. They've had a few problems with the K8 platform though, especially ST20G5's BIOS issues come in mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:22 am 
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This Shuttle looks real nice. I've never thought twice about these little systems -- this is finally the exception. The power-draw is excellent, and on par with what I've been wanting. I do believe that the upfront cost is justified by the default power-draw.

I have two systems now, and I expect the combined power-draw is around 220watts. I'm looking to combine them into a single system -- that is, router, firewell, docs, and _maybe_ a passive geforce 6600 for random games (but I don't expect to have the $$ or time for such).

Both of my current systems are very noisy, and I'll be moving into particularly cramped quarters late next year (or so I believe). It's obvious where this particular system would be handy. I desire an always-on system.

Looks almost like a winner to me. Nice, thorough review.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:03 am 
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wim wrote:
thanks for the prompt review. this xpc looks great. it seems to be just about everything i wanted so i'll probably have to cough up the cash :roll: :lol:

a couple of questions, can you hear 2.5" HD noise over the nexus fan, and does the Al chassis resonate as badly as the zen?

MikeC / Rik: i'm a bit worried about that wacky squealing noise from the PSU, could i plug my zen's psu into this box and have that problem magically go away, whilst the system still operates as normal? i can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work..
    plug looks the same
    ok the zen's psu is lower capacity, but 220W appears to be overkill according to these power draw tests
    i presume the external brick doesn't do anything except output 'black box' 12V (although i can't explain why 6 pins are needed..?)
mike, could you try it with your zen? and, if it's not too much to ask, check whether the SD11G5 psu still whines when used with the zen? i'd be interested to know whether it was just an issue within the SD11G5 psu, or some sort of interplay between the psu and the xpc.

Good suggestion. I tried the swap; the Zen PS adapter works fine with the SD11 & makes no noise at all. (However, I cannot confirm that the power adapter from the SD11 works on the Zen. This is because the lab Zen has become flaky in the last few weeks -- it hates being turned off and doesn't want to turn back on. It should work, but I was unable to get the Zen to turn on w/it. Like I said, tho, it's a pain getting it to turn on with its own power brick. )

EDIT -- I did manage to power the Zen with the SD11 power brick. So they do seem to be interchangeable. BTW, the SD11 power brick makes the same noise when plugged into the Zen and AC w/o the Zen being powered up. So the noise issue seems specific to the SD11 power brick.

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 Post subject: You forgot the tv-out..
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:04 pm 
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You forgot to mention the the tv-out in the "SPECIFICATIONS & FEATURES" table. At least, their website says it has one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Location: Silicon Valley
Well, he did mention it in the table (composite video out) but got it wrong. It's really s-video out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:41 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
wim wrote:
thanks for the prompt review. this xpc looks great. it seems to be just about everything i wanted so i'll probably have to cough up the cash :roll: :lol:

a couple of questions, can you hear 2.5" HD noise over the nexus fan, and does the Al chassis resonate as badly as the zen?

MikeC / Rik: i'm a bit worried about that wacky squealing noise from the PSU, could i plug my zen's psu into this box and have that problem magically go away, whilst the system still operates as normal? i can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work..
    plug looks the same
    ok the zen's psu is lower capacity, but 220W appears to be overkill according to these power draw tests
    i presume the external brick doesn't do anything except output 'black box' 12V (although i can't explain why 6 pins are needed..?)
mike, could you try it with your zen? and, if it's not too much to ask, check whether the SD11G5 psu still whines when used with the zen? i'd be interested to know whether it was just an issue within the SD11G5 psu, or some sort of interplay between the psu and the xpc.

Good suggestion. I tried the swap; the Zen PS adapter works fine with the SD11 & makes no noise at all. (However, I cannot confirm that the power adapter from the SD11 works on the Zen. This is because the lab Zen has become flaky in the last few weeks -- it hates being turned off and doesn't want to turn back on. It should work, but I was unable to get the Zen to turn on w/it. Like I said, tho, it's a pain getting it to turn on with its own power brick. )

EDIT -- I did manage to power the Zen with the SD11 power brick. So they do seem to be interchangeable. BTW, the SD11 power brick makes the same noise when plugged into the Zen and AC w/o the Zen being powered up. So the noise issue seems specific to the SD11 power brick.


I have a Dell Inspiron 600m ps brick (45 or 60 watt brick, IIRC) that makes a very similar noise--sort of a high pitched squeal/whine? Not sure what component internal does that, but it'd sure be nice to know, because it can be quite audible.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:37 pm 
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Looks real nice, though I think the streetprice will be too high compared to the competition. The AOpen MZ915-M retails for 324 euro for example. And, while not a SFF, a combination of the Antec P150 case and a mATX Pentium M board definately has it charms at 340 euro.

Question to Rik: on "features" page of the SD11G5 says: "Low power -
Advanced dual core technology for multitasking and digital media." Is this correct, is the upcoming dual core Pentium M "Yonah" supported?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Beyonder wrote:
I have a Dell Inspiron 600m ps brick (45 or 60 watt brick, IIRC) that makes a very similar noise--sort of a high pitched squeal/whine? Not sure what component internal does that, but it'd sure be nice to know, because it can be quite audible.

Quite a few appliances can cause that noise actually. My CRT monitor for example does that when on stand-by, and even then only during the time the led is off. And when the monitor is on stand-by, the led will slowly blink. The periodic squeal/whine is something that could make one's head explode. I share a one-room flat with my PC and I really can't sleep unless I completely turn off the monitor, while I have little trouble sleeping with the only moderately quiet PC on.

I guess my point was that the noise described is not only common to some power bricks, but also other (faulty) electric appliances. I would think that the reviewed PSU is (to some extent) defective and the noise isn't normal behaviour of that very product. I hope so anyway. Not sure if that chance has been covered in the review or this thread, because it's getting kinda late here, again.. ;)


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