A Quiet PC for Torrid Thailand

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:44 am

Tzupy wrote:Very nice review, MikeC! However, I have two questions:
1) what are the odds of getting NOW a replacement (revised-improved) NeoHE 430 for someone who is NOT a SPCR reviewer? Or, when will the new version available within the P150?
2) why use such a top-heavy heatsink in a machine that will bear many shocks, and by consequence risk motherboard damage? I would have used a Thermalright XP-120 or SI-120, they are much lighter.

1) Pretty good is my guess.
2) It's 505 grams w/o fan, about 600g w/fan. Not bad. The NCU2000 mounting system for AMD K8 processors uses through-the-motherboard spring-loaded bolts. Very secure & precise. I will add a wire to support the top of the HS, however. When it's shipped, the interior will be packed with foam/bubblepack. There will be nowhere for any of the pieces to move.

any particular reason you didn't tinsnip the rear grill?

Don't see any need, it's about as open as a grill can be; besides, that's crossing the border into fanatical territory -- most people WANT a protective fan grill.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:02 pm

besides, that's crossing the border into fanatical territory

LOL, we all cross that border every time we come on SPCR.

At least we're not the kind of fanatics who blow people up.

matva · Post by **matva** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:33 pm

MikeC wrote:Don't see any need, it's about as open as a grill can be; besides, that's crossing the border into fanatical territory -- most people WANT a protective fan grill.

Ah. I see your point.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:20 pm

MikeC wrote:I will add a wire to support the top of the HS, however.

A wire from the HS up to the PSU holder I assume. Well, that will only help if you know exactly how the box will be handled. If not, then the HS will put just as much stress (as if you didn't have that wire) on the mobo if the box is put on the back, front, or upside down. You need four wires to be sure, going up, down, front, and back.
Well, that was not a good explanation but you know what I mean.

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:27 pm

Mats,

I think I've written this about 5 times now... All the empty space in the PC is going to be FILLed with materials that does not allow any significant movement of any of the components unless the box gets shoved off the loading dock (and maybe not even then)... or off the plane. I really don't think this is going to be an issue at all.

sampoerna · Post by **sampoerna** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:38 pm

concerning the fan grill on the back of the casing, it would be a great idea not to cut it open.

^ there are lots of these little lizzard in asia, espacially in tropical climates. they grow up to 3" long and only feed on insects, very harmless but u dont want those things getting inside the case. hehe..

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:47 pm

MikeC wrote:Mats,

I think I've written this about 5 times now... All the empty space in the PC is going to be FILLed with materials that does not allow any significant movement of any of the components unless the box gets shoved off the loading dock (and maybe not even then)... or off the plane. I really don't think this is going to be an issue at all.

Yes, I know. I've read it every time.

But it was the first time you mentioned the wire (I think), so I just wanted to say what I thought from a mechanical point of view. I'm sorry if I'm being a b|tch, I was just trying to help.

I think the computer will be just fine (and it looks fine too, didn't say that before), you know what you're doing. It's just that we want to inform you about something for a change, from time to time. We owe you that! I guess it can be too much sometimes.

matva · Post by **matva** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:11 pm

sampoerna wrote:concerning the fan grill on the back of the casing, it would be a great idea not to cut it open.

^ there are lots of these little lizzard in asia, espacially in tropical climates. they grow up to 3" long and only feed on insects, very harmless but u dont want those things getting inside the case. hehe..

lol... no that wouldn't be good.

moritz · Post by **moritz** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:05 pm

Great article, very interesting especially because I might build a computer with very similar components. If I had any criticism, it's that you went with 2x512 MB RAM instead of 2x1GB - not very expensive (and this is coming from a student) and certainly a good idea for a computer that's supposed to work for a few years!

Shadowknight · Post by **Shadowknight** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:41 pm

MikeC wrote:All the empty space in the PC is going to be FILLed with materials that does not allow any significant movement of any of the components unless the box gets shoved off the loading dock (and maybe not even then)... or off the plane. I really don't think this is going to be an issue at all.

This material... it's not going to be anything strange like dog poo, is it? It almost sounds like you're being deliberately vague on that point

(I don't seriously care about the materials, it's just been awhile since I've had the opportunity to make a poo joke.)

EvoFire · Post by **EvoFire** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:35 pm

Great build overall. I wish I can purpose build a computer now other than working with what I already have.

Anyways... about ur bubble wrap.... I have to express my concerns for static. Its plastic and air, its going to develop static and your computer might be dead from the static shock.

dragmor · Post by **dragmor** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:02 pm

matva wrote:
sampoerna wrote:concerning the fan grill on the back of the casing, it would be a great idea not to cut it open.

^ there are lots of these little lizzard in asia, espacially in tropical climates. they grow up to 3" long and only feed on insects, very harmless but u dont want those things getting inside the case. hehe..
lol... no that wouldn't be good.

Dont see how that could be any worse than the 3 Redback spiders I have living in my old 1.2tbird tower.

josephclemente · Post by **josephclemente** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:20 pm

Very nice article! One small issue: the author email link for MikeC does not appear to be a mailto: hyperlink.

I like the look of that modder's mesh.

sampoerna · Post by **sampoerna** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:57 pm

dragmor wrote:
matva wrote:
sampoerna wrote:concerning the fan grill on the back of the casing, it would be a great idea not to cut it open.

^ there are lots of these little lizzard in asia, espacially in tropical climates. they grow up to 3" long and only feed on insects, very harmless but u dont want those things getting inside the case. hehe..
lol... no that wouldn't be good.
Dont see how that could be any worse than the 3 Redback spiders I have living in my old 1.2tbird tower.

Redback spiders, arent they poisonous ? ouch.
they got tons of insects too back in asia.
really dont want anything crawling in the case, and making it their habitat.
some cold cathode and flashy leds should take care of them

bad thing about them lizzard, they are all over the house. if it gets trimmed by a fan or shorted, their carcass stinkss!! well at least you ll know waht broke the comp.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:21 am

they got tons of insects too back in asia.
really dont want anything crawling in the case, and making it their habitat.
some cold cathode and flashy leds should take care of them

Actually, that would have the opposite effect; insects are attracted to all kinds of light, especially UV, so you would actually make your case a magnet for insects by doing that.

The lizards are called gekko lizards, I think.

dragmor · Post by **dragmor** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:42 am

sampoerna wrote:
dragmor wrote: Dont see how that could be any worse than the 3 Redback spiders I have living in my old 1.2tbird tower.
Redback spiders, arent they poisonous ? ouch.

Very, they make nice little webs around the harddisks in winter.

Erssa · Post by **Erssa** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:19 am

Simple solution for the creep problem - Fold 24/7. Good luck for any spiders or lizards trying to crawl inside through a spinning fan. just sharpen up the fan blades and the computer will protect itself from intruders

.

Locklear · Post by **Locklear** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:06 am

dragmor wrote:Very, they make nice little webs around the harddisks in winter.

Redback bites occur frequently, particularly over the summer months. More than 250 cases receive antivenom each year, with several milder envenomations probably going unreported. Only the female bite is dangerous. They can cause serious illness and have caused deaths. However, since Redback Spiders rarely leave their webs, humans are not likely to be bitten unless a body part such as a hand is put directly into the web, and because of their small jaws many bites are ineffective. The venom acts directly on the nerves, resulting in release and subsequent depletion of neurotransmitters.

Common early symptoms are pain (which can become severe), sweating (always including local sweating at bite site), muscular weakness, nausea and vomiting. Antivenom is available. No deaths have occurred since its introduction.

And these are living in your case.... *shivers*

dragmor · Post by **dragmor** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:40 am

Locklear wrote:
dragmor wrote:Very, they make nice little webs around the harddisks in winter.
Redback bites occur frequently, particularly over the summer months. More than 250 cases receive antivenom each year, with several milder envenomations probably going unreported. Only the female bite is dangerous. They can cause serious illness and have caused deaths. However, since Redback Spiders rarely leave their webs, humans are not likely to be bitten unless a body part such as a hand is put directly into the web, and because of their small jaws many bites are ineffective. The venom acts directly on the nerves, resulting in release and subsequent depletion of neurotransmitters.

Common early symptoms are pain (which can become severe), sweating (always including local sweating at bite site), muscular weakness, nausea and vomiting. Antivenom is available. No deaths have occurred since its introduction.

And these are living in your case.... *shivers*

There mostly harmless, Last I checked there was 3 in the case, 5 or so around the garage and 15+ in the old outside dunny. Theres a common Australian story about them living under the toliet seat and biting people.

I'm more concerned about the brown snakes I saw down the back last week, but hopefully the red belly black will remove that problem.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:34 am

MikeC wrote:
any particular reason you didn't tinsnip the rear grill?
Don't see any need, it's about as open as a grill can be; besides, that's crossing the border into fanatical territory -- most people WANT a protective fan grill.

HEY! I resemble that remark!!!

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:48 am

Neat plastic/rubber(?) shrouding round the Nexus, Ralf. Better than mine which is a mess of jagged metal edges! What did you use?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:36 am

jaganath wrote:Neat plastic/rubber(?) shrouding round the Nexus, Ralf. Better than mine which is a mess of jagged metal edges! What did you use?

Same shit I always do. You can also get it at Mcmaster-Carr. It's PN 8510K11.

...and because I'm actually worse than just "fanatical", I also did the front fan grill as well:

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:41 am

EvoFire wrote:Anyways... about ur bubble wrap.... I have to express my concerns for static. Its plastic and air, its going to develop static and your computer might be dead from the static shock.

Hmmm... good point. I guess I need to make sure whatever I put in there is non-static...

Ralf Hutter wrote:HEY! I resemble that remark!!!

If it was for me, I'd have removed the grills, but I don't do it w/o express approval when it's for someone else. That b&w nexus fan looks pretty cool, btw.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:54 am

Ralf Hütter: Is the EMR a concern in these situations, having no fan grill? I really need to learn more about it. I mean, I do know how to shield the EMR, I just don't know how important it is. Is it OK to leave a 120 mm hole wide open like that? I also need to know about which components emits the most EMR (guessing PSU). Maybe someone have a link for some useful reading.
Thanks!

raziell · Post by **raziell** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:23 am

great review mike!

i looked in the website that you gave
the link in your article and didnt find
the replacment perforated steel....
can you help me to find it?

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:38 am

raziell -- http://www.mnpctech.com/moddersmesh.html

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:45 am

Is the EMR a concern in these situations, having no fan grill?

I'm not sure the fan grill would be particularly good at stopping EM radiation. Generally, for mesh or grills to stop EMR the gaps in the metal must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation they are trying to stop (think microwave ovens and the grill in the door); the gaps in fan grills are much bigger than this, but maybe the wavelength is longer also (HF and VHF as opposed to microwaves).

RF Interference

All computers use digital signals -- square waves rich in harmonics. These signals can be generated by the several oscillators found in most computer systems. Signals from the oscillators can interfere with the signals we want to receive. In addition to the oscillators, all computer circuits sub-divide these oscillators into signals that are sub-multiples of the oscillator frequencies. Additional digital noise can be generated by the video monitor circuits. Computers also use switching power supplies. "Switchers" can also be prolific generators of RF noise. The monitor has a separate power supply, plus sweep and high-voltage circuits that can also generate noise. When you put them all together, a computer system can generate RF signals from below the HF band well into VHF!

PCB Design

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:07 am

jaganath wrote:I'm not sure the fan grill would be particularly good at stopping EM radiation. Generally, for mesh or grills to stop EMR the gaps in the metal must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation they are trying to stop (think microwave ovens and the grill in the door); the gaps in fan grills are much bigger than this, but maybe the wavelength is longer also (HF and VHF as opposed to microwaves).

Ok, thank you! I thought it was about stopping signal that got a certain amplitude or higher, since the amplitude is the width of the signal.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:16 am

Good info jaganath, but.... the most practical aspect of EM radiation from a PC is the effect it will have on nearby wireless devices such as mobile & wireless phones. Maybe audio gear, as well, but I've only ever seen the phones affected. (Oh, and there's the question of what effect EMR has on people. Some claim even a bedside LED/LCD alarm clock is enough to cause brain cancer over time. Given the amount of gear I've been surrounded by for so long, this probably means I'm already living way beyond expection... )

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:56 am

Some claim even a bedside LED/LCD alarm clock is enough to cause brain cancer over time.

I seriously doubt that either of those technologies raise people's cancer risk in any statistically significant way (certainly nowhere near the risk of say, smoking). LED's themselves don't emit EM radiation (or rather they do; they emit light, which is EM radiation with frequencies from 380 terahertz to 750 terahertz), and if the electronic circuitry is even lightly shielded the low power of the device will ensure that by the time any EMR reaches you it has lost 90% of it's energy (intensity of EMR falls off in proportion to the square of the distance from the source).

The EM Spectrum

Also, the fact that people have been using LED/LCD alarm clocks for over 30 years and there is no cancer epidemic, suggests the risk is small.