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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:51 pm 
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MikeC wrote:


Sold out. Too many SPCRians beat me to it, I suppose :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:06 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
EvoFire wrote:
Anyways... about ur bubble wrap.... I have to express my concerns for static. Its plastic and air, its going to develop static and your computer might be dead from the static shock.

Hmmm... good point. I guess I need to make sure whatever I put in there is non-static...


Antistatic packaging material is usually pink in color, its almost exclusively pink. So chances are the pink bubblestuff in the pics in the article are antistatic :)

Very nice build by the way, though i think the duct could be made of something neater than cardboard.. like Polycarbonate for example :wink:


dragmor wrote:
There mostly harmless, Last I checked there was 3 in the case, 5 or so around the garage and 15+ in the old outside dunny. Theres a common Australian story about them living under the toliet seat and biting people.

I'm more concerned about the brown snakes I saw down the back last week, but hopefully the red belly black will remove that problem.


Is this some kind of seriously twisted and sick sarcastic joke? :!: If it is i like it, if it isnt im not coming to Australia :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:21 pm 
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I really liked this article. Maybe Hutter labs will do one on the case pictured in this thread :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:05 pm 
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nici wrote:
dragmor wrote:
There mostly harmless, Last I checked there was 3 in the case, 5 or so around the garage and 15+ in the old outside dunny. Theres a common Australian story about them living under the toliet seat and biting people.

I'm more concerned about the brown snakes I saw down the back last week, but hopefully the red belly black will remove that problem.

Is this some kind of seriously twisted and sick sarcastic joke? :!: If it is i like it, if it isnt im not coming to Australia :lol:

No joke, its the price you pay for living in a nice peaceful place. I'm 200m from the beach, all around me is bush, nearest neighbour is about 1km away. There are Koloas around, a couple of wallabies, lots of kookaburras, thousands of cicadas and some water dragons.

The old TBird sits outside on the veranda (it heats up the house to much) which is why it has spiders in it.

My place in Sydney is pretty much bug free, only the occasional huntsman and funnel web spiders.

Northern Europe is to cold for most of the nasties so your just not used to it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:15 pm 
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I remember a Discworld book, "The Last Continent", where the Death goes to his library and requests a list of every single dangerous animal in that land (a thinly disguised pardoy of Australia. Two seconds later, he was knocked down and buried in books. He got up and asked for a list of non-dangerous animals, and got a small piece of paper with a short list on one side. Parody or not, that kind of puts me off wanting to visit Australia.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Ralf Hutter wrote:
HEY! I resemble that remark!!!
Image


NICE! i like how you removed the psu grill... i think i may try that.

lol, and i think "overly fanatical" is funny coming from mike, but i guess thats the point. Actually, i think it helps quite a bit:
Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:47 pm 
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nici wrote:
Is this some kind of seriously twisted and sick sarcastic joke? :!: If it is i like it, if it isnt im not coming to Australia :lol:


haha, nah. deadly aussie things are SOOO over-rated. for example the red back spider; pretty much the only time your bitten is when you disturb them or their web. and what kind of idiot goes around playing with spider's webs? just asking for trouble. simple common sense is all you need to survive in australia 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:50 am 
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matva wrote:
lol, and i think "overly fanatical" is funny coming from mike, but i guess thats the point. Actually, i think it helps quite a bit:
Image


i still see a psu-fan grill there... ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:18 am 
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dragmor wrote:
Northern Europe is to cold for most of the nasties so your just not used to it.

True, but the expected time to live for any bug entering my appartment is still about 10 seconds, which is the average time i need to find something to swat it with and hunt it down :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:25 am 
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matva wrote:
NICE! i like how you removed the psu grill... i think i may try that.

lol, and i think "overly fanatical" is funny coming from mike, but i guess thats the point. Actually, i think it helps quite a bit:


i'm curious how big the effect of removing a fan-grill is. can anyone quantify this a bit? suppose you have a fan with grill in the back that produces 23dba; how much would removing the grill with tin-snips decrease the sound level?

would it diminish to 22dba? 21dba? 20dba? 19dba?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:36 am 
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Quote:
i'm curious how big the effect of removing a fan-grill is. can anyone quantify this a bit? suppose you have a fan with grill in the back that produces 23dba; how much would removing the grill with tin-snips decrease the sound level?

would it diminish to 22dba? 21dba? 20dba? 19dba?



It's impossible for anyone to give you a precise dB figure, as it depends on your case airflow, the shape of the grill, whether it is a stamped grill or brass wire, whether most of your fan noise is bearing noise or air turbulence, etc etc. What we can tell you is that these type of grills:

Image

are less restrictive than these types of grills:

Image

and the least restrictive is no grill at all. Getting rid of the fan grill will improve your cooling and noise performance; cutting out stamped grills on PSUs seems to have the greatest impact, IME.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:41 am 
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well it definitely makes a difference, but whether that difference is noticable depends on a lot things... for example, the computer's overall noiselevel. The way i see it, it costs nothing to remove the cages or grills, so why not if they* serve you no purpose? Besides, it is fun, and makes the case look better (imo).

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Last edited by matva on Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:44 am 
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jaganath wrote:
It's impossible for anyone to give you a precise dB figure, as it depends on your case airflow, the shape of the grill, whether it is a stamped grill or brass wire, whether most of your fan noise is bearing noise or air turbulence, etc etc. What we can tell you is that these type of grills:


ok, i understand that an exact answer is not possible. that's why i used the words 'a bit'. but a range maybe? for instance: is it in the order of 3db or less than 1db?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:11 am 
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I would say 1-2dB if removing brass grills, up to 5dB if removing stamped grills. Also the quality of the noise is often more pleasant after removing fan grills, smoother.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:32 am 
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I've tested with those removable fan grills, and i can't hear any difference at any fan speed. It's all in your mind IMHO. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:53 am 
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Like I said, removing brass grills is only 1-2dB max, and for people with poor hearing sensitivity this is below the threshold of detection.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 7:58 am 
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Actually the last time I read about this, the difference needed to be at least 3dBA for the average human to hear it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:02 am 
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sanse wrote:
i'm curious how big the effect of removing a fan-grill is. can anyone quantify this a bit? suppose you have a fan with grill in the back that produces 23dba; how much would removing the grill with tin-snips decrease the sound level?

would it diminish to 22dba? 21dba? 20dba? 19dba?


There's a MikeC thread (possibly in the "Fans & Control" forum, it may even be a sticky) where he talks about the effects of various fan grills. Look around/search and it'll probably pop up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:03 am 
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sanse wrote:
matva wrote:
lol, and i think "overly fanatical" is funny coming from mike, but i guess thats the point. Actually, i think it helps quite a bit:
Image


i still see a psu-fan grill there... ;-)



And the little white "CE" sticker. Messy, messy.....

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:05 am 
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jaganath wrote:
Like I said, removing brass grills is only 1-2dB max, and for people with poor hearing sensitivity this is below the threshold of detection.
Is this based on a scientific test or just an estimation?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:08 am 
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Quote:
Is this based on a scientific test or just an estimation?


What do you think? :roll: This is Klaus Hurgelbergler here, PhD, with my massive lab of expensive acoustic testing equipment and anechoic chambers. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:08 am 
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matva wrote:
The way i see it, it costs nothing to remove the cages or grills, so why not if they* serve you no purpose? Besides, it is fun, and makes the case look better (imo).

Does it count if it makes a difference to your neighbor who receives TV by antenna, not cable? Removing the grill on a 120mm fan is almost as bad as running with the side cover off to cool the case - you'd be spraying EMI (electro-magnetic interference) all over the neighborhood.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:13 am 
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Quote:
Does it count if it makes a difference to your neighbor who receives TV by antenna, not cable? Removing the grill on a 120mm fan is almost as bad as running with the side cover off to cool the case - you'd be spraying EMI (electro-magnetic interference) all over the neighborhood.


We covered EMI on page 2; the difference between grill and no grill is minimal, especially to your neighbour who is likely more than 10-20m away.


Last edited by jaganath on Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:13 am 
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lol, well in my case, everyone has at least cable as it is included in the maintenance which everyone is required to pay.

edit: and yeah ^^^^

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:26 am 
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jaganath wrote:
Quote:
Is this based on a scientific test or just an estimation?


What do you think? :roll: This is Klaus Hurgelbergler here, PhD, with my massive lab of expensive acoustic testing equipment and anechoic chambers. :roll:
Then i say removing them is 0dB. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:58 am 
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At the very low fan speeds most silence fanatics (ie, RH & me, for example ;) ) use, the noise difference between a low restriction grill and no grill is not audible -- except maybe if you're 6" away, in which case some very slight turbulence difference might be possible to hear. Where the difference is greater is in overall airflow -- even a wire grill imposes a ~20% reduction in airflow. The exact degree of impedance depends partly on fan speed... & the grill, naturally. So depending on the rest of your system, temps could be affected. Probably by no more than say a couple degrees for the CPU, unless you have a truly minimal airflow case... in which case, it might be greater.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:59 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Where the difference is greater is in overall airflow -- even a wire grill imposes a ~20% reduction in airflow.
I find that very hard to believe. From a stamped grill like the one on the back of the P150 i.e. perhaps, but from a wire grill? Really??? I'd accept a ~5% reduction without proof, but 20%!? I'm sceptic :) Born that way. Sorry :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:25 pm 
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I would wonder if the "PSU test" procedure actually really stressed the PSU - if you wanted to really stress a PSU, attach as many hard drives as you can find to the 4-pin molex connectors. They don't have to be connected to the motherboard, just the power supply. In fact, if you have a bunch of case fans with the "pass through" connectors, it might not hurt to put one before each of said hard drives, to make the testing more intense.

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Last edited by Rory Buszka on Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:26 pm 
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peterson wrote:
MikeC wrote:
Where the difference is greater is in overall airflow -- even a wire grill imposes a ~20% reduction in airflow.
I find that very hard to believe. From a stamped grill like the one on the back of the P150 i.e. perhaps, but from a wire grill? Really??? I'd accept a ~5% reduction without proof, but 20%!? I'm sceptic :) Born that way. Sorry :)

I'm not citing ~20% off the top of my head. Airflow w/ and w/o wire grill was measured with an anenometer on a half dozen fans/sizes at different speeds. Others have confirmed with fingers-at-the-exhaust testing. Try a search on the forums for likely terms... particularly by Katana. This goes back probably at least a year, maybe >2.

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