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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:34 pm 
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Rory Buszka wrote:
I would wonder if the "PSU test" procedure actually really stressed the PSU...

It was already on the test bench at full power load. In fact, the original PSU which did not work with this motherboard behaved perfectly normally on the test bench as well, so I was not concerned about normal load stresses. And putting a half dozen HDDs on this system would be silly, as it's never going to happen. As I said, it was just an ad hoc test... partly because I know how Devon's NeoHE fried -- many on/off cycles in a few seconds. I didn't do that, tho; that, I would consider plain abuse.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:49 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
I'm not citing ~20% off the top of my head. Airflow w/ and w/o wire grill was measured with an anenometer on a half dozen fans/sizes at different speeds. Others have confirmed with fingers-at-the-exhaust testing. Try a search on the forums for likely terms... particularly by Katana. This goes back probably at least a year, maybe >2.
Ok, please don't get angry just because i'm don't accept it right away. :)
Do you mean this or this?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:03 pm 
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peterson wrote:
Ok, please don't get angry just because i'm don't accept it right away. :)
Do you mean this or this?

Angry? Huh? No such sentiment or intent to express such...

Both of those links are relevant; the first is the one where I reported my measurements.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:43 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Both of those links are relevant; the first is the one where I reported my measurements.


ok, thanks. i had a look at both links. i'm convinced. all grills will be removed from the p150 i'm going to buy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:09 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Angry? Huh? No such sentiment or intent to express such...
Ok, good. Just a misunderstanding due to different languages then :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:12 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
wrote:
I'm not citing ~20% off the top of my head. Airflow w/ and w/o wire grill was measured with an anenometer on a half dozen fans/sizes at different speeds. Others have confirmed with fingers-at-the-exhaust testing. Try a search on the forums for likely terms... particularly by Katana. This goes back probably at least a year, maybe >2.
Ok, please don't get angry just because i'm don't accept it right away. Smile
Do you mean this or this?]



Cheers guys, I think I will attack my (slightly) modified sonata tomorrow with wire cutters, I am not concerned with elegance or beauty of a case so it will look rotten and I wont care. Dont even bother asking for pics.

20% I'll be damned.


Andy

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Last edited by andyb on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:14 pm 
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Can anyone tell me how to work the "Quote" thing.???

That way I can edit the mess above.

Thanks very much ultraboy.

FAI: Howto here. http://forums.silentpcreview.com/faq.php?mode=bbcode


Andy

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Main PC, P180, CM Silent Pro 500M, i5 3570k @ 4.2Ghz, 8-GB @ 2,000MHz, 256 GB Samsung 830, 500-GB 7K500, MSI 660Ti Twin Frozr, PC is super quiet :o
Server, 6-TB RAID-5 array, + 2 x 2-TB backup drives, 380W Enermax Pro82+, 4x very quiet fans, positive pressure only, no exhaust fans
Living Room PC, 3500+, 2-GB RAM, HD501LJ


Last edited by andyb on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:39 pm 
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And for anyone who still have a need for wire fan grill to protect your kids/pets, you can raise the wire grill from fan a bit (I use MB standoff between fan and wire grill), as well as taking out some 'rings' of the wire grill (I took out 2nd and 4th rings). I found this help improve airflow as measured by my hand and a piece of paper. :wink:

@andyb: quote with name of author uses (quote="name") follow by text you wanted to quote then end with (/quote) your own text come after that - obviously you need to change to square bracket as I can not use it here. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:03 pm 
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An idea for raising a fan grill: use a grill with a larger diameter than that of the fan(and bend it to fit). Unfortunately, this probably would only work with a 92mm grill and an 8cm fan. Unless you had a 140mm wire grill.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:58 am 
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Excellent build! I didn't read through all the post and can only hope I'm not parrotting something here. Admins, please just delete this if so. Just some thoughts, not intended to be impudent:

Building the duct in softer foam material should cut just a little noise coming out of the front.
A T-balancer would bring the noise down significantly, especially at idle. Of course an economic trade-off, but I feel it's just about the most noise reduction you can get for the price.
Why use the Arctic Cooler when there are passive cards e.g. Gigabyte 6800 card, or Zalman HP-80, that could perform better? With a 80 help-fan or even better with a duct from front fans it would be both cooler and quieter.

Apart from this, that Thai computer is built almost exactly like the one I made for my dad in an AC C6607.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Well, the 6800 in the Gigabyte is not the same as the 6800GS in the eVGA card Mike used -- it's slower. The Zalman is probably not compatible with this card either, and may require an add-on fan, eliminating any advantage over the Arctic Cooling product.


Be seeing you...

---> TBC (Torrid -- Bane of Computers)


Last edited by The Black Cursor on Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:41 pm 
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snutten wrote:
Building the duct in softer foam material should cut just a little noise coming out of the front.

Not really. There is no difference listening to the PSU from the front or the back of the case. It's very quiet.
Quote:
A T-balancer would bring the noise down significantly, especially at idle. Of course an economic trade-off, but I feel it's just about the most noise reduction you can get for the price.

Too complex, no real gain in acoustics. KISS principle.
Quote:
Why use the Arctic Cooler when there are passive cards e.g. Gigabyte 6800 card, or Zalman HP-80, that could perform better? With a 80 help-fan or even better with a duct from front fans it would be both cooler and quieter.

The card I chose is faster. The AC cooler exhausts the heat, this is a very positive thing. Also, with the fan voltage set where it is (6~7V), the noise from the AC cooler is at residual level.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:15 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
snutten wrote:
Building the duct in softer foam material should cut just a little noise coming out of the front.

Not really. There is no difference listening to the PSU from the front or the back of the case. It's very quiet.

Nitpicking, but that's exactly my point. When I changed from cardboard to foam less sound came out from the front. Very subjectively. But to be expected?

MikeC wrote:
Too complex, no real gain in acoustics. KISS principle.

Please tell a newbie, whats the KISS principle? And what do you mean there's no gain? Automatically controlling the fans speed to precisely what's needed instead of chancing it manually should be way quieter and/or safer, unless the user likes to fiddle with the reported numbers and controls all the time. Me, I'd never trust myself remembering to speed them up and I'd end up with mosaik graphics just when the end-monster is coming to get me. Do you mean to tell me I've been a sucker when I installed all those auto controllers?

MikeC wrote:
The card I chose is faster.

There are really fast passive cards. E.g. 7800 GT killer from ASUS. But that cost some $100 more than your pick. You mentioned something about the VGA being almost overkill, so that's why I pointed to the 6800 as a viable and cheaper option. There are lots of alternatives. Anyways, it would seem the reason for your choice was good performance for the money?

MikeC wrote:
The AC cooler exhausts the heat, this is a very positive thing. Also, with the fan voltage set where it is (6~7V), the noise from the AC cooler is at residual level.

I hear you.

The Black Cursor wrote:
... and may require an add-on fan, eliminating any advantage of the Arctic Cooling product.

You meant to say advantage "over" the A.C. product I take it? A 5V (or auto 50-500 rpm or so) Nexus is most surely enough. Or a ducted front fan. Think that's the same noise level?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:19 pm 
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KeepItSimple-something??


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:08 pm 
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snutten wrote:
KeepItSimple-something?? :idea:


Stupid


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:26 pm 
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Quote:
There are really fast passive cards. E.g. 7800 GT killer from ASUS. But that cost some $100 more than your pick. You mentioned something about the VGA being almost overkill, so that's why I pointed to the 6800 as a viable and cheaper option. There are lots of alternatives. Anyways, it would seem the reason for your choice was good performance for the money?


Not to steal breath from MikeC, but the card you mentioned would not work very well in the system he built. First, it is a passive video card, but it utilizes the CPU's fan in order to cool the radiator for its heatpipe. While the card undoubtably works fine on standard "top mount" heatsink fans, it doesn't appear to configurable for the tall heatsink that was used in the "Torrid PC". Furthermore, that video card exhausts its heat into the case. As you can see by MikeC's excellent photos, he wanted the video card's heat pulled out of the case. Lastly, the card is a hardcore gamer's card, which according the parameters of the build requirements, "Frank" is not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:12 am 
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Ah well. First my card is too slow. Then I say there are faster passive cards if you really need them but that it's probably overkill as it is. Damned if I do and damned if I don't. :)

Regardless, I think you're right about the reason for going active. That and to keep it simple. What do I know about Thailand? I asked simply because I would have rather solved the heat problem with ducts to/from a passive card, which would require less flow and avoid the small fan. We all know small fans were invented by lesser minions of the Beast? In this case, if the air from the front fans were forced to pass the passive video card then no extra fan would be needed. The loss would be whatever cfm the NV's small fan can exhaust from the case. Quite the opposite of Mike I've never even seen it, but judging by the pictures it can't be much. A 60 cm fan @ 1500 rpm probably pushes less than 8 cfm. Using big fans to compensate for that is a walk in the park. Better turn them up, or add another big exhaust or duct the GPU out back if things get too hot. Usually, if the CPU and GPU is alright, chances are everything else on the mobo is doing fine too.

Now, I realize that if the PSU or CPU fan must spin loud anyway so the NV never adds to the subjective noise then my point is silly. Never meant to criticize in a bad tone. Just curious.


Last edited by snutten on Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:50 am 
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I think everything is all right and great review... except one thing.

I would have put an Audigy2 card in that top PC. I do not know, how will he react if he hears the noisy on-board sound card... For the price of the PC, one Audigy2 or 2ZS would not be expensive at all...

BR!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:28 pm 
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If I were doing that metal grille thing with a PSU duct, I would have found 5.25"-bay mounting kits for the hard drives and put the hard drives in that airflow path, and then just done without that entire 3.5" bay thing or the 92mm fans.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Rory Buszka wrote:
If I were doing that metal grille thing with a PSU duct, I would have found 5.25"-bay mounting kits for the hard drives and put the hard drives in that airflow path, and then just done without that entire 3.5" bay thing or the 92mm fans.


That would let the noise from the hard drives straight out to the user.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:39 pm 
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I really like the intake grill Mike (didn't someone here at the forum from Thailand do something similar?)... What I don't like is the "quiet at any cost mindset" (not that you have that mindset). I think a case should look good aswell and that means hard work. And I think you just built one that qualifies :)

I now have project in motion which will mean a lot of time in the workshop and should really be something... 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:32 am 
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I am wondering, if anything has been (or can be) done to minimize damage to the computer by Customs officials?

They are known to unpack things and apparently don't even know how to pack simple things back up :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:10 pm 
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wing wrote:
I am wondering, if anything has been (or can be) done to minimize damage to the computer by Customs officials?


How about making it look like an appliance? That'd show 'em!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:58 am 
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I tend to agree with peterson. If a fan grill is not very restrictive I think the benefit of not being able to stick your finger into it is more than any loss of airflow. If I can fan myself with a grill it is too restrictive for me but the wire grills I have tried have not pushed any noticable air outwards.

While I don't dispute that they must affect the airflow negatively, for me it is not sufficient to override the benefit of preventing the fan from being damaged. I only use grills on the outside of the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:42 pm 
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Ooh, hey - Just wanted to say thanks, Mike, for the excellent article. Eerily similar to a system I'm planning on building.
Cheers!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:27 pm 
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Excellent build.

I just wanted to suggest a second identical hard drive in RAID 1 configuration.

Just to protect against hard drive failure.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:19 pm 
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qviri wrote:
MikeC wrote:


Sold out. Too many SPCRians beat me to it, I suppose :D



Modders Mesh will be back in stock by first week of Feb :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:01 pm 
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Received word from Frank in Thailand a couple days ago.
Quote:
Re: the incredible silent thinking machine

Hi Mike,

The machine arrived at my local post office in the Jungle three days ago. Mr Postman phoned us and we went to collect. No duty no tax no nothing (there should have been). So the postage was a great success (up yours FedEx).

I gave the machine a work out with Rome Barbarian Invasion. this is the most demanding application in terms of RAM, graphics, and sound (in fact it's so demanding that Mr Pirate warned me against buying it). No problems at all.

The machine is totally silent of course but I am using it in an air conditioned room. The real test, from your perspective, will come when Iinstall a solar/battery power supply and try using it in a fan cooled room. But this will not happen for until I have built my new house.

So far it seems to be a great machine. Nice job.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:46 am 
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Congrats on a successful delivery :D

I recently rebuilt a PC for a friend going to a small village in Mexico with less than stunning results. Packed the thing in the original shipping case and told them to take care on how they move it (ie: not directly on the bed of the pickup truck, etc). 1500miles ofinteresting roads later, it booted, and worked for a while....and then odd s/w failures started occuring.

I visited last week, opened the case, and found that one of the HDD's supply wire pins had come loose in the back of the molex connector!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:50 am 
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I finally got around to reading this article... great build! Very nice and clean.

Just a couple questions...

MikeC wrote:
Quote:
Why use the Arctic Cooler when there are passive cards e.g. Gigabyte 6800 card, or Zalman HP-80, that could perform better? With a 80 help-fan or even better with a duct from front fans it would be both cooler and quieter.

The card I chose is faster. The AC cooler exhausts the heat, this is a very positive thing. Also, with the fan voltage set where it is (6~7V), the noise from the AC cooler is at residual level.


I suppose that's the same reason why you chose the AC over something like the Zalman VF700 (link), right?

I had re-read the article to see how you got your AC to be SPCR-quality quiet:

MikeC wrote:
A Zalman Fanmate1 is used to control the speed of the AC NV Silencer's fan. At full speed, this fan is too loud for a quiet computer. The fan speed setting was chosen on the basis of noise (quiet enough not to be identifiable as a discrete noise source) and cooling (which you'll see later). It turned out to be a very slow speed; I would guess the fan is not getting more than 7V. Still it is plenty cool enough, even at very high, extended loads.


And your temperatures still look good! Nice.

I was just thinking, I tried the AC NV silencer for my geforce ti4200 a while back, and wasn't impressed with its sound level, although, after reading this article, looks like I could get away with Fanmate'ing the fan down to lower levels.

Just some other random musings: have you instructed Frank that he may have to use compressed air to clean out dust every year or so? Hopefully the P150 does a decent job on its own of keeping dust out, but that PC will probably still collect dust over time. I've found noticeable temperature drops when I clean out ultra-dusty heat sinks. I think that's the downside to running a computer that is silenced primarily by slow fans: the dust will accumulate, and you're at greater risk for increased temperatures when the cooling becomes less effective due to dust. (Although I'm in the computer so much, I have plenty of opportunities to clean, but when you give a silent pc as a "set it and forget it" gift...)

One final comment: any worry of flammability for the foamboard PSU duct? (Obviously not or you wouldn't have done it :)). I don't have the link handy, but I remember someone on here building a really nice duct using Plexiglass. <shrug>

Anyway, great build! Most impressive. Keep the great articles and reviews coming!

Matt


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