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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:32 am 
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forgieboy wrote:
Just a quick check on StaticIce reveals some rough estimates:

Your X2 3800 PC:
$150 Seagate 250GB
$1350 Dell 2405fpw
$435 3800 X2 CPU
$70 LG DVD burner
$60 512MB DDR2 533 RAM
$100 Logitech Desktop set
$150 Motherboard
$140 Decent case

TOTAL: $2455

20" Core Duo iMac:

TOTAL: $2649 ($2350 with edu discount)

Now those two have the same amount of RAM and HD space. Obviously the PC has a 24" monitor, not a 20" one. There's many other differences, but my point is that there isn't a HUGE discrepancy between macs and PCs.

This seems like a really desperate attempt to create a level playing field by dynamiting through any obstacles such as objectivity. Those prices are way way off. With a 20” screen the above configuration would be just about half the price of the iMac.
Ironically, there are a lot more reasonably priced Macs at the low and mid range price points these days. It seems to be at the top end that prices leap dramatically ahead of PCs.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:54 am 
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To do a price comparison between this particular iMac and a conventional PC is kind of silly. Core Duo is a very unique processor that has no real desktop PC equivalent (not unlike the G5 that preceded it). In addition, part of the price includes the OSX experience, which inseparable for better or for worse.

The article gives a noise perspective and overall experience from a silent PC user, and this is important for a site like this one, where users have learned to distrust other site's noise analysis/comparisons.

One question that arises from time to time on this site is the availability of an all-in-one quiet or silent solution. It seems to me that the Core Duo iMac is one such solution. This site tries to avoid talking about "the best" because no single product will always fit the needs of all users. This product illustrates that point in the fullest.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:27 am 
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smilingcrow wrote:
forgieboy wrote:
Now those two have the same amount of RAM and HD space. Obviously the PC has a 24" monitor, not a 20" one. There's many other differences, but my point is that there isn't a HUGE discrepancy between macs and PCs.

This seems like a really desperate attempt to create a level playing field by dynamiting through any obstacles such as objectivity. Those prices are way way off. With a 20” screen the above configuration would be just about half the price of the iMac.

.... as I said, there's many differences, it wasn't meant to be accurate etc. I was just countering someone elses claim. It would appear that I'm not going to able to make any claims about OSX/Mac prices without someone responding with "BUT WHAT ABOUT...."!

All those prices were in Australian, for a start, since I was responding to a post by another Australian mentioning Australian prices. I shouldn't have to justify and disclaim every god damn statement that I make just because I'm on a forum that's predominantly PC users.

Just to re-iterate. I know it's not a fair comparison. I know that there's many pros to the PC I spec'd and many for the iMac as well. I was just countering other peoples posts.

Being a mac user, I have to put up with both pro-mac pedants and anti-mac pedants whenever I talk about computers. I'm sick to death of it.



Lets get back on topic. The thermal envelope on a Yonah (Core Duo) is 30W. What's the predicted thermal env on a Merom? If the iMac becomes a Merom, I'd like to wait before I get one. If it becomes a Conroe, I'd rather get the last Yonah model, since it'll be cooler and quieter.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:53 am 
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smilingcrow wrote:
I wish the article had focussed purely on the acoustic properties of the Apple computer; at least then there would have been a chance that this thread wouldn’t turn into a playground brawl.


I agree that the article pretty much opened up the floodgates to Mac vs PC by discussing inherent advantages to the software platform that have nothing to do with the acoustics or packaging. The editorial disclaimer does not change that, people will respond to claims based on the text of the article.

I'm not sure I would have rejected the article myself though. Regardless of the relative merits of the platform, apple does provide a capable PC in a small package that is effectively silent in an average room. This is more than most PC makers (laptops not included) have done.

It will be interesting to see if the increasing focus on heat/platform issues by OEM's and chip makers, combined with the popularity of SFF and the lack of reasons for faster computers for non-gamers will start to level the field. Right now, Apple is pretty much walking away with this one, not because their OS is superior (IMO) but because they are the only ones doing it. Will this change as mobile and desktop platforms for PC's start to converge?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:28 am 
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sthayashi wrote:
To do a price comparison between this particular iMac and a conventional PC is kind of silly. Core Duo is a very unique processor that has no real desktop PC equivalent

Intel has released a chipset specifically to support Core Duo on the desktop, so it is not such a strange comparison to make. http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/945gt/index.htm
With Intel releasing the Viiv platform, it is likely that more motherboards supporting Core Duo will appear than happened with Pentium M. Core Duo would be excellent for a SFF Viiv machine.

Apple’s unusual form factor is another story though and not many PC companies seem to want to go down that road. Aopen seem likely candidates though as they aren’t afraid to amble down similar roads to Apple. In some ways Apple’s form factors seem more innovative than anything else that they do. No disrespect to OSX, which sounds like a good OS from what I’ve read and experienced.

forgieboy wrote:
.... as I said, there's many differences, it wasn't meant to be accurate etc All those prices were in Australian, for a start, since I was responding to a post by another Australian mentioning Australian prices. I shouldn't have to justify and disclaim every god damn statement that I make just because I'm on a forum that's predominantly PC users.
Oops, I missed the fact that you were quoting Aussie dollars, sorry about that, as that certainly changes things.
I don’t think anyone is asking you to justify anything; I for one was merely pointing out that your comparison seemed off; comparing a 20” iMac to a PC with a 24” screen makes you look possibly biased or stupid in my eyes. And when you say that it wasn’t intended to be accurate, I just have to wonder, what the point was!

forgieboy wrote:
The thermal envelope on a Yonah (Core Duo) is 30W. What's the predicted thermal env on a Merom? If the iMac becomes a Merom, I'd like to wait before I get one. If it becomes a Conroe, I'd rather get the last Yonah model, since it'll be cooler and quieter.
Merom and Yonah will have very similar power requirements and are reportedly pin compatible. It would make sense for Apple to continue using Core Duo in SFF Macs, particularly if they get a good price from Intel.

mrzed wrote:
I'm not sure I would have rejected the article myself though. Regardless of the relative merits of the platform, apple does provide a capable PC in a small package that is effectively silent in an average room. This is more than most PC makers (laptops not included) have done.

It will be interesting to see if the increasing focus on heat/platform issues by OEM's and chip makers, combined with the popularity of SFF and the lack of reasons for faster computers for non-gamers will start to level the field. Right now, Apple is pretty much walking away with this one, not because their OS is superior (IMO) but because they are the only ones doing it. Will this change as mobile and desktop platforms for PC's start to converge?
I would like to see a full SPCR review on the new iMacs, as the recent article was purely subjective and I didn’t come away from that with any confident conclusion as to how much noise they produce.
I agree with your statement and it does seem strange that no one is aiming for that market. I imagine that there must be a market for people who would pay a premium for a pre-built very SFF PC running Windows! Maybe the rush to low power chips, Viiv and increasing interest in HTPCs will jump start this trend at last.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:39 am 
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Quote:
comparing a 20” iMac to a PC with a 24” screen makes you look possibly biased or stupid in my eyes.


I don't see how a 4" inch difference in screen size makes his comparison look "stupid". There are much more pertinent aspects of a PC than visible screen size.

Quote:
And when you say that it wasn’t intended to be accurate, I just have to wonder, what the point was!


The comparison was meant to be a broad brush one; the caveat that it wasn't meant to be accurate was to ward off pedants and nitpickers.


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 Post subject: Windows Booting on Macintosh
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:58 am 
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Windows Booting on Macintosh!
Now Almost Official.


http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/15/xp-o ... the-movie/

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nzH6OFpXgzI

http://www.winxponmac.com/


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:58 am 
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jaganath wrote:
I don't see how a 4" inch difference in screen size makes his comparison look "stupid". There are much more pertinent aspects of a PC than visible screen size……
The comparison was meant to be a broad brush one; the caveat that it wasn't meant to be accurate was to ward off pedants and nitpickers.
Since the comparison was purely based on price, to compare a US $1700 20” iMac against a PC with a 24” screen that costs an extra $500 seems at best pointless to me. Dell 20” ~ $500 versus 24” ~ $1,000. If pointing out a difference of $500 on a $1700 system seems pedantic to you, I suggest that you look here for a definition of pedant:

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/pedant?view=uk


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:14 pm 
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The price difference between 20" and 24" TFT's in the UK is not as large as it apparently is in the US, I see now how it falsifies the comparison.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:37 pm 
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Let's start the Toyota vs Honda again, or whatever you want to call it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:08 pm 
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Comparing Mac’s to PCs purely based on pricing doesn’t seem a particularly productive exercise to me. My experience of Dell’s 20” widescreen TFT was that it was very poor and I returned it immediately; it suffered from very poor backlighting spillage. I doubt that Apple would release such a poor screen.

jaganath wrote:
The price difference between 20" and 24" TFT's in the UK is not as large as it apparently is in the US, I see now how it falsifies the comparison.
The prices quoted were purely based on the Dell model that the original poster mentioned. UK prices for Dell actually show a much larger disparity between the two models in question. Good quality 24” TFTs are very expensive compared to a 20” model.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:48 pm 
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I think the point brought up about it's merit as a front page article is valid - a link to a users review in the forum would have been more suitable. As has already been said, it came across more as someone justifying why they bought a Mac (not interested) than an objective report on noise, both volume and character (very interested). For someone who a) has 3 L1As at 7v, b) 2 unsuspended high capacity HDDs (even 7200.7s) and c) a standard Antec PSU (let alone whatever HSF is on the CPU) to say something is quiet isn't alot of use.

Considering the criticisms of other sites on here that rush reviews to be the first at the expense of quality, it's a shame to see the same here. Now if one of the SPCR reviewers got their hands on one and gave it the full shake down, I'd be very interested in hearing the results (and hopefully minus the XP is so shit, OSX is so great distraction).


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:07 pm 
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Stop with the overreacting, guys! The article was presented exactly as I perceived it: A USER's Review! And that's what it is.

No one complained when a user's review of a quiet Dell system got posted here a couple years ago. This suggests that at least some of the reaction here is Wintrenched kneejerk to the author's comments about the Mac OS. Sure, disagree, but those comments should not undermine the author's perceptions (as a noise-sensitive user) of the product's acoustic properties.

Yes, there is a place in the forums for user reviews, but I judged the topicality of this product and its relevance to silent computing in general to warrant a link on the front page. The front page of SPCR is not some sanctimonious hall, btw -- it keeps moving, with many different kinds of items posted at various times.

I personally requested Apple folks for a short term review loan, but I have no response whatsoever. We're interested enough in doing a review in our lab that we may even buy one. But if someone in Vancouver is willing to give his/hers up for testing for a day or two, we promise a guided tour of the lab. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:21 pm 
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fair enough, hey it's your site afterall. It's just that, given the high quality (and objectiveness) of all the other non-news articles, this stands out for all the wrong reasons. As it focuses more on the OS side of things than noise (and the noise description isn't particularly informative) it doesn't really seem to add much to the site other than "it's not noisy".

But again, it's your site and this is just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:26 pm 
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To MikeC:

Do you think the ISO 9296 noise data typically is a good indicator of the noise emissions of computers? Is it necessary to do an SPCR review if the ISO 9296 noise data is published?

Apple, Dell and probably other manufacturers publish noise data (at least for certain models). I'm wondering how well this published ISO data corresponds to levels measured in your lab.

Avi


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:19 pm 
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aviavi wrote:
To MikeC:

Do you think the ISO 9296 noise data typically is a good indicator of the noise emissions of computers? Is it necessary to do an SPCR review if the ISO 9296 noise data is published?

Apple, Dell and probably other manufacturers publish noise data (at least for certain models). I'm wondering how well this published ISO data corresponds to levels measured in your lab.

Avi

Yes, it is pretty good, but unless the level is very low, that data is not enough. There's no way to get any idea of the quality of the noise from these numbers, and if you have read any of our "official" reviews, you know that we go through a lot of effort to describe it and record it (and present it as MP3 files) to capture this.

Having just looked through the 20" iMac enviro specs, I found...

SPL at Operator Position (per ISO 9262) specified as 22 dBA w/HDD idle or accessing.

This is very quiet, as the ISO 9262 O.P. puts the mic roughly 60cm away from the PC, not 1m as we do in the SPCR lab. Our equivalent would be ~20 dBA@1m. I'd be interested to know what HDD they're using and how it's mounted, because this is lower than just about any HDD we know of if it is mounted normally. The fact that they say idle/seek noises are the same suggests it is a Samsung and/or the drive is softmounted.

Anyway, maybe you're right, we should just leave it here; 20 dBA@1m is as good any just about any PC we've measured... Just accept the mfg at face value -- and trust that Randy's unit is typical.

As for Dell machines, it's my impression that the acoustic data only pertains to the slowest (ie -- coolest running) model in any line. Not every model/config is tested. I have also not tried to correlate their data with real sample measurements and listening.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:19 pm 
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smilingcrow wrote:
sthayashi wrote:
To do a price comparison between this particular iMac and a conventional PC is kind of silly. Core Duo is a very unique processor that has no real desktop PC equivalent

Intel has released a chipset specifically to support Core Duo on the desktop, so it is not such a strange comparison to make. http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/945gt/index.htm
With Intel releasing the Viiv platform, it is likely that more motherboards supporting Core Duo will appear than happened with Pentium M. Core Duo would be excellent for a SFF Viiv machine.

And once a motherboard becomes available with that chipset, feel free to make all the price comparisons you want. Until then though, price comparisons to anything else on the market is meaningless since there are no products out that are even close to the Core Duo.

MikeC wrote:
No one complained when a user's review of a quiet Dell system got posted here a couple years ago. This suggests that at least some of the reaction here is Wintrenched kneejerk to the author's comments about the Mac OS. Sure, disagree, but those comments should not undermine the author's perceptions (as a noise-sensitive user) of the product's acoustic properties.

To be fair, this site wasn't as refined then as it is now.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:30 am 
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sthayashi wrote:
smilingcrow wrote:
sthayashi wrote:
To do a price comparison between this particular iMac and a conventional PC is kind of silly. Core Duo is a very unique processor that has no real desktop PC equivalent

Intel has released a chipset specifically to support Core Duo on the desktop, so it is not such a strange comparison to make. http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/945gt/index.htm

And once a motherboard becomes available with that chipset, feel free to make all the price comparisons you want. Until then though, price comparisons to anything else on the market is meaningless, since there are no products out that are even close to the Core Duo.


There is a review of an Aopen motherboard that supports Core Duo here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/03/07/ ... e_desktop/
Pricing can be found here: http://www.geizhals.at/eu/a188040.html
Availability may be another story though!

MikeC wrote:
Stop with the overreacting, guys! The article was presented exactly as I perceived it: a User’s Review! And that's what it is.
Yes of course, it’s just that I think that many of us felt that it was a distinctly poor review.

MikeC wrote:
No one complained when a user's review of a quiet Dell system got posted here a couple years ago. This suggests that at least some of the reaction here is Wintrenched kneejerk to the author's comments about the Mac OS. Sure, disagree, but those comments should not undermine the author's perceptions (as a noise-sensitive user) of the product's acoustic properties.
If the Dell reviewer had seemed just as interested in talking about themselves than the hardware and also in denigrating say OS/2 against Windows 2000, then I would have found it equally banal.
I don’t have a beef with Macs which is why I was interested to read the review. But, I prefer to keep out of the way of journalism tainted by McAssholeism (or other equivalents) if possible. You guys have set the bar so high on this site that in comparison such paltry efforts stand out like a turd on the floor of the Vatican. Maybe bringing religion into this isn’t such a good idea, although maybe appropriate…


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:18 am 
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Quote:
I think that many of us felt that it was a distinctly poor review.


Let's get one thing straight: this was not an official SPCR review; it is a user review. As such, judging it by the standards of a proper official review is a straw man argument. Whether a user review merited a position on the front page is an entirely different argument.

Quote:
You guys have set the bar so high on this site that in comparison such paltry efforts stand out like a turd on the floor of the Vatican.


Really, this thread has come to a natural conclusion. You don't like the review, don't think it's good enough to be on this site; fine. The raison d'etre of this site is to guide people and help people to find quiet components and computers; I think this article does that. End of story.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:51 am 
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kogi wrote:
I'd love a mac. But price would be a sticking point for me.

In Australian Dollars
20" imac, 2 gig ram, 500 gig hd = $3,568.99

My current x2 3800, same specs, w/dell 2405 screen, didn't cost nearly as much.

kogi

Obviously some people are still wondering why I posted my 'comparison'. Please read the above quote. Please read the thread. Do you get it now?

...

...

(throws hand in air in despair)

Sorry to sound impatient, it's just that everytime I say anything about macs on a non-mac dominant forum, there's a bunch of people pedantically ripping through everything I say and 'questioning my motives'. People, please move along and on to something more constructive.


I'm wondering if the new Conroe (or Merom) chips will use the same socket and/or chipset as the current Core Duo... if so, would that make a current model iMac Core Duo upgradeable to a Conroe/Merom? If it is theoretically possible, that's all the more reason for me to just get an iMac now, rather then waiting to see if Apple go with Conroe or Merom for the next gen of iMacs.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:40 am 
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forgieboy wrote:
I'm wondering if the new Conroe (or Merom) chips will use the same socket and/or chipset as the current Core Duo... if so, would that make a current model iMac Core Duo upgradeable to a Conroe/Merom? If it is theoretically possible, that's all the more reason for me to just get an iMac now, rather then waiting to see if Apple go with Conroe or Merom for the next gen of iMacs.
Conroe is to be LGA775, whereas Yonah & Merom are S479. Yonah and Merom are reported to be pin compatible, and my understanding is that it will be possible to upgrade PROVIDED your system vendor makes a necessary BIOS update available. Whether you can physically replace the chips easily is of course down to whether you have easy access to the socket; mileage will vary here, which probably equates to the usual crap shoot.

forgieboy wrote:
Sorry to sound impatient, it's just that everytime I say anything about macs on a non-mac dominant forum, there's a bunch of people pedantically ripping through everything I say and 'questioning my motives'. People, please move along and on to something more constructive.
If people point out to you what they perceive to be anomalies in your postings, it doesn’t necessarily have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the posting is about Macs. An error is an error; are we supposed to just ignore errors that involve Mac postings, in case we trigger latent paranoia in the sensitive little Mac user? I picked up on a price comparison because I thought it was absurd and it would have been just as absurd if it had been between an AMD versus Intel system, regardless of the operating system used.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:21 am 
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smilingcrow wrote:
I picked up on a price comparison because I thought it was absurd and it would have been just as absurd if it had been between an AMD versus Intel system, regardless of the operating system used.


I agree. That comparison makes PCs look good for sure by comparing All-In-One system to one which is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Hardware Monitoring....
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:42 pm 
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I found the review reasonable for several reasons.

1st) As many Windows users are familiar with, to many times installing another program causes problems and the reviewer pointed this out as one of the reasons for finally throwing in the towel in regards to windows

2nd) Although he does indicate the ease of use in regards to OS-X, the comparison was unneeded as the only thing we're interested in is the quality of the noise produced.

3rd) Although I'm a fairly intense system user (avg. cpu load is 50% on an XP1800 with 1 gig), I'm also interested in alternative posibilities not only in regards to noise but overall exterior dimensions. From my standpoint, the pictures comparing the new iMac against the mid-tower ATX case are very informative as to how much desktop will I be loosing?

4th) I've decided to investigate the form factor of the iMac in greater depth in regards to it's suitability for my office system. Personally I don't care if it's the fastest gaming rig on the planet as it's only reason for even being purchased is a business tool. That's right it's a tool and I will use it as such, to help me earn more money and perform repetitive tasks easier.

So why not ignore the ranting of another frustrated windows user and focus on the specifics that are important, such as how loud and the percieved quality of the sound. Isn't that what's important to us? OTOH: I'm not a widoze user nor am I a Mac user, instead I'm a computer user that's willing to use what ever tool does the damn job, including a rock instead of a gun to shut some idiot up when necessary.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:27 pm 
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smilingcrow wrote:
An error is an error; are we supposed to just ignore errors that involve Mac postings, in case we trigger latent paranoia in the sensitive little Mac user? I picked up on a price comparison because I thought it was absurd and it would have been just as absurd if it had been between an AMD versus Intel system, regardless of the operating system used.

Did you even read my above post? One guy said he'd like a mac, but it would cost him more then his current rig. I gave a price check on his rig, and compared it to the price for the Core Duo iMac. They were very similar. I wasn't trying to compare them academically, I was comparing them to contest his claim that his rig was way cheaper then a mac. This was all in Australian prices.

What exactly was the "error" that you couldn't ignore?

I don't want people to ignore "errors" in mac related posts, you just have to understand that people like me get sick of bigots, and when someone makes a post that completely misses the point and context of my post, it makes you look like an anti-mac bigot, and when you still don't get what I was trying to say after I've pointed out the context, well I think that speaks for itself. I think this thread has had the life strangled out of it for now. I'm not saying you're an anti-mac bigot, I'm just saying that you all took my post out of context making it seem absurd, then kept repeating that even after I'd given you the correct context.

Enjoy your computers people, be they Mac, PC, Atari or C64.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:56 pm 
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Forgieboy:

I have to say it was a futile effort to begin with while also helping to hijack the thread away from the primary element of discussion. That being the user percieved noise of the system. Everything else is a distraction in that regards to this thread.

Everyone Please forgot the DAMN Mac vs PC war and concentrate on the purpose of this Site; NOISY or How Quiet a Solution is.[/b]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:15 pm 
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fastturtle wrote:
Everyone Please forgot the DAMN Mac vs PC war and concentrate on the purpose of this Site; NOISY or How Quiet a Solution is.[/b]

Totally agreed. Any other posts that focus on Mac vs Windows will be deleted. Period.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Mike C says it's a user review...I mean come on now, give the man a break but yeah...

I can see why people say they're annoyed at how the article doesn't discuss noise enough and instead focuses on what the author doesn't like about Windows but I'm glad that he gave his opinion...

it is an opinion after-all and for someone like me that doesn't know anything about buildin' a computer from scratch, the Mac seems like a very viable alternative to findin' someone to build a computer for me and it's so quiet...I'm glad it was on the front page otherwise I would've probably never realized how quiet and small Mac's are.

With all that said, I'll still end up buyin' a PC probably just for the better gamin' options...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:11 am 
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Yup. When the author parts with his machine long enough for SPCR to do a true review, then complain about the lack of detail (which of course will not be there ;)).


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:17 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Totally agreed. Any other posts that focus on Mac vs Windows will be deleted. Period.


Great decision. Mac vs. PC arguments lead to no fruits and make people angry for some reason.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:49 am 
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forgieboy wrote:
What exactly was the "error" that you couldn't ignore?

Oops, (raises white flag), it turns out to have been MY ERROR; I completely missed the context of your original post. I apologise for coming on so heavy, I was out of order; even if my initial understanding had been correct, my response was still off kilter. It’s been an exceptionally difficult fortnight and the stress just got to me and leaked out sideways so to speak and onto this forum. Apologies all round.

randyharris wrote:
I push XP hard, and it breaks too often. I don't think I should have to reinstall XP every so often to get it running properly……

I absolutely think that Windows is too fragile of an OS, and I also hope that Windows Vista improves overall stability.
If you continue to use Windows and encounter similar problems I would recommend using Ghost or a similar program to create an image of your system drive on DVD-R that you can restore from. This seems an essential step to secure an installation as you can also restore it to a new drive if your system drive physically dies.

Getting back on topic: I was impressed by how quiet the G5s were for an off the shelf dual processor solution, back in the day. Still too noisy for my tastes, but it showed that Apple was ahead of the most of the pack in this area, so it’s no surprise to see that the new iMacs look promising. I used a friend’s iMac recently which was a mark 1 model I think and I was surprised by how noisy it was compared to a G5. Comparing a desktop to a floor standing computer is not always a fruitful execrcise.

Yours humbly.


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