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 Post subject: Samsung SyncMaster 20XL LED-backlight monitor
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:17 pm 
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Samsung SyncMaster XL20 LED-backlight monitor

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Last edited by MikeC on Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:35 am 
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Very informative review Mike, I had no idea that RGB LED backlighting existed, I had just assumed that all LED backlighting was white. Knowing this the higher color gamut and power consumption make perfect sense.

But with OLED technology finally becoming a reality I can't imagine LED backlighting ever really taking off. It may fill a niche market for the next few years, but OLED is supposed be better in about every way.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:33 am 
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Even considering the RGB LED backlighting, I'm surprised at how much power this consumes. IIRC that's not much less than my old 21" Sony CRT, which I always considered to have better colour accuracy than the LCD displays I've used.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:13 am 
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Sounds excellent, except for the new-tech pricing. But in 2 years, power consumption and price will be 50% of today's.

MikeC wrote:
The SPL at two feet represents the approximate distance between the monitor and a typical seated user. <snip> For SPL at the standard one meter, just add 1 dBA.
How about subtracting with greater distance?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:58 am 
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HammerSandwich wrote:
MikeC wrote:
The SPL at two feet represents the approximate distance between the monitor and a typical seated user. <snip> For SPL at the standard one meter, just add 1 dBA.
How about subtracting with greater distance?

Oops.... corrected.

HammerSandwich wrote:
Sounds excellent, except for the new-tech pricing. But in 2 years, power consumption and price will be 50% of today's.

Probably true, but if you need/want the performance today... Also, the real competition doesn't have any lower power consumption either.

Consider this text from the DVE review of the NEC 2180UX-WG linked in the article:
Quote:
The monitor, a unit that’s capable of swiveling to a portrait configuration if need be, is thicker than most flat panel displays, measuring 5 inches thick (see graphic below). NEC engineers say this thickness is necessary to accommodate the large heatsink that keeps the inside of the monitor cool. Best of all, the heatsink makes it unnecessary to use any cooling fans inside the monitor at all. Earlier prototypes contained three and sometimes even five fans inside to keep all the components cool, but this ready-to-ship prototype had no fans at all, and remained completely silent throughout our testing. This is a huge advantage for all graphic artists. Bravo.

The price is obvious: weight/size -- the NEC weighs 18kg vs 7.6kg for the XL20, and it's front-to-back depth is 125mm vs 89mm. The NEC's max power is cited as 100W; it's 85W for the XL20.

What's interesting is that a 24" variant is now listed on Samsung web sites, but oddly, there's no press release for it, at least not in English -- the only reports about it google found were in European languages. That one has a 100W power rating, so at least for now, the LED efficiency hasn't changed.

btw, Steve_Y, I'd be surprised if 67W was "not much less than your 21" Sony CRT" -- I measured 100~115W on all three 19" CRTs that were here until donated off lasted week.

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Last edited by MikeC on Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:46 am 
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Great review there.

My eyesight isnt the greatest and im always on the lookout for monitors that will reduce eye strain.
I just wish this one wasnt such a strain on the pocketbook.

the noise doesnt sound too bad.. but when compared to my current samsung 970p -- it may get annoying.

now to see if they have software for 64-bit OS's...


Edit: Model number on samsung's site is 'XL20' not '20XL'


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:58 am 
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Interesting review.

I was curious about the calibrator - did you try it with another monitor, to see how much of the improvement in pictures was a question of calibration vs. how much the special monitor?

Also the idea of sticking a suction cup onto an LCD screen seems sort of chancy (soft plastic easily scratched, etc.) Did this monitor have a glass screen, or any impressions about that aspect?

Minor typo:

Quote:
It's energy efficiency that's taken the front seat. Environmentally, LEDs are also superior, as they don't contain mercury like CCFLs, although they are not complete within toxic content (trace amounts of Gallium and Arsenic).


Think that should be "not completely without?"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:15 pm 
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frostedflakes wrote:
But with OLED technology finally becoming a reality I can't imagine LED backlighting ever really taking off. It may fill a niche market for the next few years, but OLED is supposed be better in about every way.

When you say next few years, my reaction is: Aren't all products life cycles about like that these days? Also, it's not so clear the OLEDs have much power advantage right now, and afaik, the only commercial product is Sony's 11" TV, released only for sale in Japan last month for something like $1700. Yeah, prototypes of bigger dusplays have been shown for a couple years, but the price and performance may both take another while to be market ready.

On the other hand, Samsung has a high gamut, super-thin 40" LED LCD rated for 90W...
http://www.i4u.com/article12275.html
Quote:
Samsung will show a 40 inch full HD LCD Panel with a stunning 10mm thick canvas at the FPD International 2007.

This new display, expected to usher in the next wave of large-screen TVs, has the same profile as 10-20 inch LCDs designed for desktop monitors. It's bezel has been reduced from a conventional 30mm to 14.6mm. The panel, using an LED backlight, reproduces 92% of the NTSC standard for color saturation and features a low power consumption of 90 watts or less.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:40 pm 
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scdr wrote:
I was curious about the calibrator - did you try it with another monitor, to see how much of the improvement in pictures was a question of calibration vs. how much the special monitor?

Also the idea of sticking a suction cup onto an LCD screen seems sort of chancy (soft plastic easily scratched, etc.) Did this monitor have a glass screen, or any impressions about that aspect?

Yes, I did try it with 2 other monitors, the BenQ mentioned in the review and another 19" Gateway. The adjustment didn't really improve the color balance of either of those monitors much; my own manual adjustments looked better to me.

There was no damage on any of the CLD screens from using the calibrator; the rubber is very soft.

Thanks for spotting the typo, btw.

This may be of interest; a color control pro sent it to me. It's a post from a Colorsync-users mail list at Apple by someone at x-rite:
Quote:
There certainly has been a lot of speculation on this forum about Huey,
i1Displays, filters, fields of view etc. I don't want to talk about
specific combinations of product with a particular customer. Rather
than get into trouble for something I might say that may violate an NDA,
I will simply correct Graeme Gill's comments when I feel he has made a
mistake. So here goes...actually, there really aren't any corrections
at this moment, but I'm keeping an eye on the guy :) I want to
emphasize that to the best of my knowledge, Graeme has no affiliation
with X-rite. He is a very knowledgeable researcher and while I may
occasionally disagree with him, he is normally right on target.

Led backlit displays are a relatively new technology and one should
expect that there will be a long learning curve in this market. The LED
technologies do not optimally align with the filter sets of the LCD
panels in use today. Changing the filtration in a panel is a rather
monumental, high risk, undertaking, so you are going to see this issue
for a relatively long time. The reason the LED panels are hard to get,
is that they hard to build at any price, and it is nearly impossible to
make money at the price they are selling at.

The increase in Gamut achieved by the LED backlight is found mostly in
the green. Rather than narrowing the bandwidth and increasing the
output, physics has demanded that the dominant wavelength of the LED
shift to a lower dominant wavelength than a filtered CCFL lamp.
(Roughly 550nm -> 520-535). This results in an increase of gamut, but
there are some real problems lurking here. The range of dominant
wavelengths for the LED are a strong function of temperature and
chemistry. For any given LED, the center wavelength and optical
bandwidth of the signal changes with temperature. From cold start to
maximum operating temperature, I have measured an xy chromaticity change
on the order of .013 . (Note, that's one zero beyond the decimal point,
not two.) If you look at the spectrum of the various choices of green
leds you will see that their rising edge crosses the rising edge of the
y-bar CMF and falls squarely in the interaction region between the z,x
and y cmf's . What does this mean? It means that it is very difficult
to measure chromaticities accurately with any instrument at any price.
The difference between two very expensive spectral instruments can
easily be .008 when measuring the same source instantaneously. There is
another issue as well. If you believe that the cmf's are based upon
human visual experiments and represent an "average", one should expect a
rather high degree of observer differences when looking at the same
displayed color. In short, you got your gamut, but it's probably not
the same gamut for the guy sitting next to you. If you have an issue
with inter-instrument agreement now, matters will only get worse with
these new technologies.

Now there have been some comments about issues of choice of bundled
product by region. If you have ever done business on a world wide basis,
you understand that your product sells in the context of a local
currency and your profit is reflected in the currency of the nation of
incorporation. The dollar is extremely low. An importer can buy a US
made product very cheaply, and make a handsome profit by selling it in a
region that has a high currency/dollar ratio. The same is not true for
the US. The US market is killing the display industry. Prices for
displays are falling quicker than the dollar. Keep in mind what Graeme
has said about the performance difference between a Huey and and
i1Display. In a bundled situation, on a high end display with custom
software, there is essentially no difference in performance. It is not
the case that the US is any less critical about color, it is simply a
question of a manufacturer staying alive through this very tough time,
by making intelligent technical decisions that respect the financial
realities.

I hope this answers some questions and I suspect that it will generate
more thoughtful comments as well.

Take care,
Tom Lianza
X-rite corporation.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Loud and power-hungry - perfect for SPCR? Actually, it was very interesting to me as I am considering an LED monitor.

One site I've found informative has been www.behardware.com. They have superior monitor reviews with calibration results. Based on their reviews I bought the LaCie colorimeter (from the Clearance corner on their web site) and adjusted my monitors at home and at work (mostly Dells). To my eye, it has made a significant improvement (in particular, allowing side-by-side monitors to be more consistent). See http://www.behardware.com/articles/626- ... o-100.html. One unpleasant side effect of the recalibration has been more obvious banding in smooth color gradients.

I think SPCR readers may find a second opinion useful. This review contains data comparing the Samsung XL20 with the Dell 2707 - http://www.behardware.com/articles/658- ... nd-27.html.

I note that the newer "HC" Dell monitors match th 92% gamut claimed by the Samsung white LED HD LCD panel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:53 am 
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mcb wrote:
Loud and power-hungry - perfect for SPCR? Actually, it was very interesting to me as I am considering an LED monitor.

One site I've found informative has been www.behardware.com. They have superior monitor reviews with calibration results. Based on their reviews I bought the LaCie colorimeter (from the Clearance corner on their web site) and adjusted my monitors at home and at work (mostly Dells). To my eye, it has made a significant improvement (in particular, allowing side-by-side monitors to be more consistent). See http://www.behardware.com/articles/626- ... o-100.html. One unpleasant side effect of the recalibration has been more obvious banding in smooth color gradients.

I think SPCR readers may find a second opinion useful. This review contains data comparing the Samsung XL20 with the Dell 2707 - http://www.behardware.com/articles/658- ... nd-27.html.

I note that the newer "HC" Dell monitors match th 92% gamut claimed by the Samsung white LED HD LCD panel.

Found the info in the behardware review about the XL20; a little confusing at first because the article title is The Acer and Dell 26" and 27" and there is no mention of XL20 in the drop down index of pages in that comparison review.

Reading the entire review, the Dell seems quite compelling. Its screen brightness is as even as the XL20, it's bigger, higher res, has more features, and Dell is selling it in the US right now for just a grand. But no color calibrator, and narrower color gamut... Rated (in the spec sheet) for 110W max power draw. No mention of fan.... is it safe to assume it has no fan?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:57 am 
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Was wrong about the Dell 2407WFP-HC price (or they just dropped it over the last day??) -- it's really tempting at $699 now in the US & Canada.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:17 am 
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MikeC wrote:
No mention of fan.... is it safe to assume it has no fan?


2407WFP-HC has no fan. And it hasn't LED backlight -- only improved CCFLs.

2407WFP-HC is a high-end home/office monitor while XL20 aimed at color-critical applications (prepress, color correction and retouching, et cetera) and should be compared with NEC MultiSync/SpectraView 2190UXi, NEC SpectraView 2180WG and so on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:03 am 
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I'm quite sure this display uses the original Luxeon I/III/V/K2...

Efficiency has doubled since then :
Cree's XR-E LEDs
Seoul Semiconductor .. P something serie
Luxeon's new Rebel


improved "Wide Gamut" CCFLs are less energy efficient than "regular" ones as well.. (can't find where I got that right now .. sorry)


The Nec LCD2180WG LED uses the original Luxeons but I don't think it has a fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:04 am 
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Super-review :D

I wonder why LED backlight monitors are so expensive.
50pcs of Luxeon Rebel will cost 100$-200$ :roll:
http://www.luxeonstar.com/sub_category. ... k_str=1394
And not forget to extract the price of CCFL


40mm fan :lol:
I don't think that will cool the 16x12 inches array of leds, maybe some undersize radiator from the power source module.


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