CES 2008, Day 1: Antec, Arctic Cooling, CoolIT

[dhanson865]

Anyway once released, it's going to be easily the best matx case on the market. I almost feel bad for buying NSK3400, almost.

Not. So. Fast.

Two major reasons why people typically go mATX:

1) Smaller Size
2) Lower Price

The mini P180:

1) Is huge for an mATX case. In terms of size, the mP180 is to the P180 family what the NSK3840 is to the mP180!

2) Is expected to retail for 160 dollars, nearly twice the cost of the NSK3480.

I'm doing a new build in February and will probably be sticking with the NSK3480. The mP180 looks like it will be a cool, quiet case, but it achieves this in part by going against one of the primary benefits of the mATX form factor: size.

One of the biggest causes of noise in a case that SPCR regulars use is the resonance from drive vibrations. More weight helps fight this and suspension is the final answer.

3480 Net:14.4llb / 6.53kg
SOLO Net: 20.3 lb / 9.2 kg
P180 Net:31.0lb / 14kg
P182 Net:30.9lbs / 14kg
P182SE Net:31lbs / 14kg

Where does the mini P180 fit on that scale?

To me the top 2 choices prior to the mini were the P180 series and the Solo. Did you know that the Solo is wider than the other three cases you compared? Did you know that the Solo is taller than the mini-P180? Did you know the Solo is deeper than the other three cases? A P180/182 is taller than a SOLO but not wider or deeper.

I'm not saying I prefer the mini-P180 but I am saying I literally bought a SOLO over the P180 not realizing the true relationship in sizes between the two. The mini-P180 is literally smaller in all 3 dimensions vs the SOLO. When I see a full review and pricing I might be choosing between a 2nd SOLO and the mini-P180.

Oh, wait I see you say >$100 pricing, well, I'll probably get another Solo then call me cheap if you want. Are we talking over $100 shipped? I see P180 and P182 under $100 before shipping, surely the mini-P180 won't be more expensive than a P182?

SPCR Pricegrabber:
NSK3480 ~$80 shipped
SOLO ~80 shipped
P180 ~$130 shipped
P182 ~$130 shipped
P182SE ~175 shipped

Of course rebates and sales get it cheaper

P182 ~$95 shipped - $50 rebate = ~$45 (FRYs expired Jan/15/08 )
SOLO ~80 shipped - $50 rebate = ~$30 (FRYs expired Nov/08/07)
P180 ~70 shipped no rebate back in Aug/07 (CompUSA)

So my question is not what will the high price for a mini-P180 be but what will a realistic sale price be for those who are willing to wait?

PS, anybody know how to type "8 )" on here without getting instead?

[djkest]

Quiet computers start with quiet components. The case can help, but the wrong components in a P180 are still going to be loud. You could start experimenting w/ different fans and heatsinks now to cut down your noise. Almost any case and any components can be "quietized" at least a little bit.

[thejamppa]

I have to say, I really love the looks of Antec 300. That might be the case to house my crossfire... That or 1200 ^^ but being value point 300 offers excellent cooling and good lookings in my humble opinion.

[dhanson865]

You could start experimenting w/ different fans and heatsinks now to cut down your noise.

I hope that wasn't directed towards me. If you saw how many fans, PSUs, motherboards, cases, etc are piled in my living room and bedroom you'd know that was a misdirected statement...

[=assassin=]

I'm interested in the Antec 300, when would it likely become available?

[thejamppa]

Antec european department estimated perhaps sometimes in march.

[=assassin=]

Thanks

[bendit]

Due to integration, it is Inevitable that the matx form factor is going to be the dominant form factor within a couple of years. that's my opinion. I see this new mini 182 as a forward looking product that has this eventuality in mind.

[xen]

Plus of course the questions of interference and possible health effects of their extra RF.

Exactly. Electronic/wireless devices can already cause or add to e.g. autism in young children, (see naturalnews.com), and these ppl want to add even more high-power air radiation to the home. Insanity. It is a scientific fact that electromagnetic fields can cause cell functions to be activated (that is, any function that is normally activated by a messenger molecule, can also be activated by the right electromagnetic field), so we already place our bodies in numbers of electromagnetic fields that have not been researched for their effects on cell behaviour, and now the future seems to hold that we are going to strengthen those disruptive fields even more.. .

Given the proper research, I am sure we could devise fields that are not harmful to the body, but I'm also dead sure mainstream electronics manufacturors are not into that research.

[jaganath]

Electronic/wireless devices can already cause or add to e.g. autism in young children, (see naturalnews.com), and these ppl want to add even more high-power air radiation to the home. Insanity.

no, the insanity is to believe a theory for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever (ie RF causing autism).

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2007/07 ... s-try.html

At a first glance, this research doesn’t seem to meet scientific criteria, and definitely its findings have nothing to do with the blog publicity it has whipped up. Has any of the bloggers even read it, tried to understand it, or even glanced at what the paper was trying to do?

The paper sets out to demonstrate that spending time in non-EMF environment leads to lower levels in various heavy metals in our body. The hypothesis is that the electro-magnetic fields somehow stop this clearing from happening normally. The authors them make a HUGE leap of faith by saying that if this happens, it also supports the hypothesis that it was EMF that made those heavy metals get locked in the body in the first place. This does not logically follow from the first hypothesis.

I didn’t have time to check the paper in detail, but what strikes me as suspicious is that the authors only try to find corroborating evidence for their claim, not falsify it as would be the normal scientific practice, their references to how this process of heavy metal clearing works and how it or lack thereof is linked to autism are vague, and finally, they only show a couple of trends that are statistically significant at the 0.5 level. And given the number of measurements they do, are probably fluke. And as they have no control data (measurements from people who aren’t in these low-EMF conditions) there is no way to tell if what happens is normal or takes place because of the treatment.

And, even if the non-EMF environment (which they said they verified being so by making measurements, which curiously enough weren’t presented in the paper) has an effect to the concentrations of metals in the body, the link from there to autism remains tenuous, and there definitely are no grounds to suggest that WiFi or any other kind of EMFs cause autism.

Now, I’m sure we don’t fully understand the way in which electronics and wireless communication affects our bodies, but this kind of crap science will not help. It only helps the scaremongers and snake-oil peddlers that seem to be cosy with the good Dr Carlo, although they say at the bottom of this page they have no affiliation.

[xen]

I would agree with the person you quote that this is crap science, but bear in mind that
1) this experiment's only purpose was to see if it is worth the time to do further research
2) I very much doubt this crappiness is the result of malicious intent, but rather caused by bad training combined with the zealous fervor to uncover everything that is bad for your health
3) Given the fact that electromagnitism does in fact influence cells, it seems wise to at least not fill your house to the brim with wifi technology, until good research has been done that can prove that the technology is *not* harmful. If there are claims of harmfulness such as that kid, they can be falsified. I have not much faith in research that fails to find harmful effects based on healthy individuals.

According to Bruce Lipton (maybe he's a fraud as well?) healthy individuals were largely immune to negative influences, and only individuals that were under stress were affected by being exposed to disruptive fields. Perhaps electromagnetic fields can only adversely affect individuals that are already ill or weak.

Thanks for the link.

Edit:

It's a bit of a shame that these 'quackometers' (in the blog) are only trying to disprove and ridiculize these 'quacks' without reflecting on the larger pictures that led these quacks into their present direction, thus not being very helpful in helping readers make up their own mind. They have nothing to add, only to take away.

[Catapult]

Pages for both the MiniP180 and 300 is up.
Mini P180
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=09188
300
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=15300

Thanks Gunbuster for post at: viewtopic.php?t=42231&start=60

[F for Fragging]

I'm disappointed to see that the 300 now has ventilation openings in the side panel like the Antec NSK-series enclosures, the CES 2008 photos show a closed side panel. Not only is it ugly and seemingly unnecessary for cooling - considering that the Solo and P18x enclosures don't have those openings at the side panel - those ventilation holes would probably let through more noise from fans inside the enclosure.

I was waiting for the 300 because it would likely be cheaper than the Solo, and because it had place for two 120mm fans at the front. The Solo has options for two 92mm fans at the front, but I wanted to use two 800 rpm 120mm Scythe Slip Streams, because there are no 92mm fans which are quiet by default with rpm's around 800 (unless I would use undervolting methods, which I don't want to).

Besides that, the PSU being placed at the bottom of the 300 would require PSU's with 120mm fans at the bottom to be placed upside down, so that they would suck air in downwards, which would be inefficient considering that hot air rises. And with a 140mm fan at the top, dust could probably fall in easily via the opening at the top if the PC isn't turned on, and if the 140mm fan isn't going to be silent, silent 140mm fans to replace it are probably hard to find. And one last thing I hate for impracticality is the door at the front for the drive bays, currently with my SLK3700BQE I have to open that annoying plastic door everytime I want to insert a disc in my DVD drive.

I'll think I'll just stick with my choice for buying the Solo then.

[AntecRep]

Putting the power supply in the bottom of a case has one drawback and several benefits. The drawback is when some power supplies have short cables, cable routing can be a challenge. Sometimes an inexpensive extender is required for one of the motherboard power connectors.

With CPU coolers getting heavy, and the ATX form factor, a lot of weight can end up concentrated in the top of a tower. Putting the PSU in the bottom moves a fair amount of weight lower in the case and makes it harder to tip over. You're also able to move drives lower in the case for further weight distribution improvement. I have seen bottom PSU cases bumped, that rocked back and forth before stabilizing themselves instead of tipping. If more weight had been in the top and it had gone over, the shock would probably have been considerably more Gs than a running drive could handle.

With the PSU cooling itself with air from the bottom of the case, it doesn't have to use air that has already been heated by the CPU and other devices, so its fan can run more slowly. Since replacing the PSU fan with a quieter fan would void the warranty, giving it cool air so it can run slower is a simple way to make the PSU fan quieter. With a big fan on the PSU having to push air down into the PSU might better than using a single 80mm pulling straight through, but maybe not. Using a PWM 80mm fan like we do in our soon-to-be-released Signature Series power supplies will definitely allow for extremely low RPMs depending on load and input air temperature.

With the PSU out of the top rear position, ventilation can be VASTLY improved. It is not feasible to put as many fans in the back as you can in the top. The ability to put a big fan, or several fans in the top pulling the air that wants to rise to the top of the case in the direction it already wants to go is perfectly efficient. If your CPU cooler has a fan, and you aim it up into a fan in the top of the case, the CPU heat can be removed by fans running at lower speed than if you are trying to blow it out the back. I put a Pentium D940 in my Nine Hundred case and cooled it with a passive CPU Cooler and the BigBoy fan set to low.

Also, something clever I did for a computer I modified with a top fan in an industrial setting was to give it a dust flap. I took a piece of really thin paper and cut it to about an inch bigger than the fan opening on 3 sides and 2 inches bigger on the fourth side. Then I took a couple small magnets and stuck down the long end of the paper to the top of the case and let it flap down over the fan opening. When the computer wasn't running, the top was somewhat sealed. Wasn't pretty, but it was easy considering I'm lazy about cleaning the inside of my computers at work.

Oh, and what's that about a door on the Three Hundred? The SLK3700BQE (BQE means Black Quiet Edition) has a door. Doors show up on our quieter cases. It keeps down noise from optical drives and internal devices. Cases like the P18X and Sonata series have doors. Notice that the 900, 300 and 1200 are gamer cases, where noise is not as important as cooling and they don't have doors. It's kind of a "having your cake" kind of thing. If you don't want doors, there's a slight penalty to be had in the form of noise.

[MoJo]

Doors can be a bit annoying, but I did a simple mod to make the one on the P182 less bothersome. The P182 has a lock to lock the door, so I replaced it with a switch connected to the power button. Now there is no need to open the door just to turn the machine on. Plus, the switch has it's own LED, so I used the power LED as a drive light.

[F for Fragging]

AntecRep and Mojo, thanks for your replies. Good to see that Antec is reading these forums and listening to their customers. Very informative reply about placing the PSU in the bottom as well, I hadn't thought about it that way.

I thought the 300 has a door because I clearly see some kind of grating at the front of the enclosure in the images on the Antec website, which cover the 5,25/3,5 inch bays. Doesn't that function as a door?

And AntecRep, concerning the ventilation holes at the side panel of the 300, do you happen to know why they were added after the demonstration at the CES, where a 300 "prototype" was demonstrated without those side panel holes?

Just checked out the Signature series PSU's you mentioned as well. Unfortunate that the cheapest PSU delivers 650W and costs $249, could be interesting if cheaper versions with a lower wattage would be available and if they could indeed reach such low rpm's.

[mbetea]

The 300 looks like an interesting case, especially if its price is going to be around $60. I agree with some others though about the side panel vent. Besides the cases that use the large fans (20cm +) I haven't seen side panel vents play a significant part in cooling. But others might feel different. It is nice to see that Antec is keeping larger video cards in mind, even in budget cases, good job.

Lately I have been interested in ditching ATX and going with mATX and was looking forward to the mini-p180. I would be interested to see if the top fan could be used as a single exhaust. I also like the 2 5.25" slots at the bottom, it should work for rigging up a couple suspended HDDs and free up space in the mobo chamber. But $100-$115 would be my limit on such a case. I certainly couldn't see myself spending $160 for it.

[bendit]

The mini-P180 is literally smaller in all 3 dimensions vs the SOLO. When I see a full review and pricing I might be choosing between a 2nd SOLO and the mini-P180.

the mini p180 is Larger in two of three dimensions vs. the SOLO. This according to data at the Antec website.

[AntecRep]

Nice mod Mojo! Pic? I keep a list of links that I send people who might have the same annoyance with a case as someone who fixed it. It's simply impossible to make a case that everybody loves, so I like being able to help people find solutions that fit their taste. That's kinda how I ended up as the new AntecRep.

The front section of the 300 is perforated for ventilation, and has a big filter in front of where the fans go. The side panel that went to CES was not final. We were still deciding if and where a vent would be beneficial in the side. Given that it's aimed at gamers, we couldn't seal up that panel.

The Signature is an absolute departure in the PSU field. People said they wanted quality and were willing to pay extra for it. They wanted the highest quality capacitors. They wanted quiet and weren't willing to give up high efficiency to get there, and that's okay with us because efficiency is a big part of how it's able to be quiet anyway (simply: the less waste heat generated, the less fan effort required to cool it...) Experts wanted a lower component density on the board to allow for larger, and more robust, components. Okay then... we built it!! It's going to be the flagship of our product lines, and I wouldn't overclock with any other PSU. Personally, I hope there is no pressure to lower the cost on this model, as I don't want the bean counters to have any say in the engineering. I hope the people who clamored for this PSU will be able to get it as it has been designed.

For lower wattage and good durability, our EarthWatts are nice and rugged for a lower cost.