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 Post subject: 80 Plus expands podium for Bronze, Silver & Gold
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:02 pm 
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80 Plus expands podium for Bronze, Silver & Gold

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:06 pm 
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Hi Mike,

I like the trend! Let's hope this is an incentive for makers to take up the challenge.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:20 pm 
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Me likey.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:50 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Let's hope this is an incentive for makers to take up the challenge.

Definitely a challenge! I'm very interested in seeing how the Gold standard will be met. I don't think I've ever seen a PSU that can give 87% at any output, let alone 90%. :o


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:13 pm 
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Considering the only product that is rated at silver is a prototype and even the best today only scrape through the bronze standard, i think it'll be a looong time before we see a sensibly priced commercial grade Gold standard PSU.
But thats a good thing, it'll encourage companies to continue improving efficiency, and i expect the first gold standard PSU will be a big seller around here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Of course there are supplies out there which claim highish efficiency
(for higher loads).

http://www.supermicro.com/newsroom/pres ... 073107.cfm


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:21 pm 
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After further thought, I realized I neglected to mention a quibble about the 80 Plus program that occurred to me the very first time it was presented to me... so this was added:

Quote:
A QUIBBLE ABOUT HEAT

My only quibble with the 80 Plus program is that the qualifying tests are conducted at normal room temperature, typically 25°C. (Thermal conditions during each test are not disclosed in the test reports for public consumption.) This is fine at 20% load, but by 50% load, and certainly at 100% load, the temperature of the actual working environment for any PSU rated higher than about 300W will invariably be hotter than the typical room. Not only does a PSU have to deal with its own internal heat generated during the AC/DC conversion, but also the heat of the components in the computer system it is powering.

As some of the approved models in Bronze are rated for very high output (750W to 1200W), at 50% or 100%, the heat they're generating is prodigious. Even at 82% efficiency, the heat produced with 1000W output comes to 219W, which will invariably cause an increase in the operating temperature of the PSU and its immediate environment inside a computer. Why does this matter? The efficiency and capacity of electronic components such as capacitors decreases as temperature rises. At high loads with real applications inside a real chassis, a PSU gets hot and its efficiency tends to decline. By conducting the qualifying tests in unrealistically cool conditions, many of the higher power models that fare well in the 100% load test get off easy. A more thermally rigorous test would see fewer high power units achieve such high efficiency numbers.

Adding thermal requirements and conditions to 80 Plus could complicate testing. It may also make it more difficult to achieve 80 Plus qualification. Then, there's the question of what to do about the nearly 500 models that 80 Plus has already qualified. Still, from the perspective of realistic testing, the absence of thermal requirements in 80 Plus today seems a deficiency that should be addressed.

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Last edited by MikeC on Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:54 am 
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Excellent point about heat. Thanks for keeping tabs on this!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:57 am 
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I may be missing something but even when testing the PSU open bench at 25° it would have to dissipate its own heat, no?

So the point would be reduced to the fact that the PSU will, in general, have higher temperature at the in take than open bench testing provides it. (This is not insurmountable, AFAIK there are a few cases that provide outside air to the PSU)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:31 am 
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oberbimbo wrote:
I may be missing something but even when testing the PSU open bench at 25° it would have to dissipate its own heat, no?

For sure, but its own heat would be much more easily dissipated when the PSU is sitting in an open room.

oberbimbo wrote:
So the point would be reduced to the fact that the PSU will, in general, have higher temperature at the intake than open bench testing provides it. (This is not insurmountable, AFAIK there are a few cases that provide outside air to the PSU)

OK, you can put it that way. The difference is not small. I believe it would affect 80% of all tested units' efficiency results at 100% load. Some of them only marginally, but others by many percentage points.

One immediate hurdle that any proposed change runs into is the existing 80 Plus database of tested & approved PSUs. If the test parameters change, do those have to be retested? This could prove the biggest stumbling block.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:56 am 
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FartingBob wrote:
Considering the only product that is rated at silver is a prototype and even the best today only scrape through the bronze standard, i think it'll be a looong time before we see a sensibly priced commercial grade Gold standard PSU.
But thats a good thing, it'll encourage companies to continue improving efficiency, and i expect the first gold standard PSU will be a big seller around here.


I just noticed that the Climate Saving Computing initiative targets
seem to correspond to these new levels. They list (equivalent of) Bronze for Jul '08-09, Silver for Jul '09 - '10, and Gold for Jul '10 - '11.
Maybe the future isn't all that far away.

http://www.climatesaverscomputing.org/p ... faq.html#4


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:47 pm 
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I like the fact that gold is currently basically unreachable. Bronze rated supplies are just coming along and maybe we'll see some Silver rated supplies, but that gold level is going to take some real engineering skills to reach.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:06 pm 
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There appears to be one Silver rated PS:
http://80plus.org/manu/psu_80plus/psu_join.php

* June 8, 2008* web address has been modified to:
http://80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_join.aspx


Last edited by alleycat8675309 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:05 pm 
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alleycat8675309 wrote:
There appears to be one Silver rated PS:
http://80plus.org/manu/psu_80plus/psu_join.php

It's a reference design by NXT, which makes IC controller chips for use in switched mode power supplies. They make the parts... and show PS makers how to use them with reference designs such as this. Obviously, they're trying out a very high efficiency part.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:47 am 
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Hello,

And notice the output capacity of the units: 270 and 275 watts. Plenty for almost any system! :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:23 pm 
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C'mon, wanna a gold PSU... Oh my gold! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:43 am 
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I dont see 90% happening anytime soon, unless 1 of 2 things happen:

1. Its running on 220v

or

2. It outputs only a single voltage, probably 12v.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:19 am 
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Aris wrote:
I dont see 90% happening anytime soon, unless 1 of 2 things happen:

1. Its running on 220v

So as long as they aim at the European market, there's no problem. Apart perhaps from the fact that 80plus is a North American initiative...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:22 am 
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mcv wrote:
So as long as they aim at the European market, there's no problem. Apart perhaps from the fact that 80plus is a North American initiative...

Actually, since 80 Plus has become an integral part of the the Energy Star spec for computers, it's international. Plus Climate Savers is supporting it too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:01 pm 
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http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20080418PD217.html

Quote:
90Plus to become new power supply standard in next 3-5 years, says Delta executive Kung-Tien Huang, Taipei; Steve Shen, DIGITIMES [Friday 18 April 2008]


Just to put that in context vs the 80 Plus categories.

Code:
Parameters  Load@ 80 Plus Bronze Silver Gold  90 Plus
             20%    80%    82%    85%    87%    90%
Efficiency   50%    80%    85%    88%    90%    90%
            100%    80%    82%    85%    87%    90%


I'm still surprised that Seasonic/Corsair haven't gotten any of their newer designs certified Bronze yet. I suppose they would have to do a redesign or at least spec different components to meet the 80 Plus Bronze standard. I'm wondering how long it'll be before they respond to Enermax's Pro82+ and Modu82+ lines.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:39 am 
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These days everything is 'ultra' or 'platinum' or 'extreme'... I much rather put 80plus on my psu box than '80plus bronze' .. which sounds inferior!

I'm very surprised at these names, from a marketing POV they suck! :)

Bronze - 80 plus ultra
Silver - 80 plus ultra extreme
gold - 80 plus ultra extreme deluxe hardcore..


Or what is wrong with Enermax.. 82+ ,87+ .. higher number, good marketing..

But i'm just an engineer..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:43 am 
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boo! on the diamond, gold , titanium,bronze, platinum, taluminum, tin...ect.. designation!

It would help educate the computer consumer if it was the efficiency at 50% load ...

80+ %
85+ %
88+ %
90+ %

Consumers would actually learn that cheap power supplies cost more to operate.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:50 am 
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It would be even better if it was efficiency at the load that their machine actually uses. How many people have a 500W PSU that usually runs at 20%, and rarely gets over 40%?

In any case, I think the 20% and 80% efficiency are relevant and shouldn't be ignored.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:09 am 
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not ignoring those loads either...
I just would like to see the main certification label have a number that directly correlates to the PSU's efficiency - not just an Olympic medal standing.

How about listing the efficiency range on the certification's logo?
80/80 with black color label
82/85 with bronze color label
85/88 with silver
87/90 with gold
90/90 with holographic chroma flair rainbow paisley label :lol:


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 Post subject: Um, I see rising prices in the very near future!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:18 pm 
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What better way to drive up the demand, and thus the prices of PSU's by starting the old numbers game...

I mean, look what it's done for the CPU market! :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:01 pm 
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I found a 90Plus PSU here, in french.

Translation.

Probably not even close to go retail, and maybe not even real. The strange thing is that's called 90Plus Gold, that's just confusing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:47 am 
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I'm wondering if that's just marketing double-speak going on. a) There is no such thing as 90plus (that I know of) so in theory, they could just be making it up as it sounds better than 80plus. b) The little label on the window only says "Meet Energy Star 80 plus program criterion". Doesn't say anything about 80plus bronze/silver/gold. c) 800/1100 watts.... Ug.

I'm going to remain skeptical on this one for the moment until there's more info.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:29 am 
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More info, it seems it was fake, just like I thought.
Quote:
The first point that we discussed with him the famous question 90Plus qu'arborait Glacialtech label. Mr Wickes has confirmed that it was false . . .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:52 am 
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I saw that logo at Cebit... wondering why an organization called "80 Plus" would use "90". a closer look revealed it was indeed not very real. marketing gone wrong?

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 Post subject: Odd math
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:27 am 
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Quote:
Even at 82% efficiency, the heat produced with 1000W output comes to 219W,


If the power supply is 82% efficient it shouldn't it produce 180W of heat (1000-820), not 219W of heat?

Inquiring minds want to know :)


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