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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 am 
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K.Murx wrote:
The "Specifications" Table, Item "weight:
Quote:
870 g, 30.7 lb

Now that's one badass heatsink :lol: [Linux "units" says 870 g => 1.92 lb]

Would love to see a 30.7 lb heatsink review :shock:. Wonder how good the mounting system would need to be for that? Try installing that on your mini-ITX board :wink:.

K.Murx wrote:
Btw, in the conclusion it is argued that the mounting system is significantly more secure than the Xigmatek. Well, the Xigmatek is 385 g or almost one pound lighter than this beast (with fan). So I would argue that the Xigmatek does not need such a mounting system to be securely mounted.

Freedom of orientation for the Xigmatek would be nice, though...

Positive points to Xigmatek for its lower weight and price-to-performance ratio but negative for its lazy oversight (like most heatsink makers) and disregard for AMD users needing to rotate the heatsink for front-to-back airflow. How many times has this point come up in the forums? When will they listen, eh?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Reachable wrote:
Maybe the two fans, since they have essentially the same noise signature, and they're close together, and they're cooperating fully (rather than opposing each other in any way), maybe they're somewhat out of phase so that they cancel each other out (noisewise) a little bit, and maybe the effect is the equivalent of one 11 dB source regardless of the fan speed, so that at higher dB the effect is negligible but at 11dB it cuts the total in half (by 3 dB).

Or maybe the two fans working in tandem reduce turbulence inside the heatsink.

Or maybe that's all just nonsense. :lol:

Did you read my reply to your first post?


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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:21 pm 
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K.Murx wrote:
The "Specifications" Table, Item "weight:
Quote:
870 g, 30.7 lb

Now that's one badass heatsink :lol: [Linux "units" says 870 g => 1.92 lb]

Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/0 ... etail.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:23 pm 
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I think it's supposed to be 30.7 ounces (oz) not pounds.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:38 pm 
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jessekopelman wrote:
Reachable wrote:
Maybe the two fans, since they have essentially the same noise signature, and they're close together, and they're cooperating fully (rather than opposing each other in any way), maybe they're somewhat out of phase so that they cancel each other out (noisewise) a little bit, and maybe the effect is the equivalent of one 11 dB source regardless of the fan speed, so that at higher dB the effect is negligible but at 11dB it cuts the total in half (by 3 dB).

Or maybe the two fans working in tandem reduce turbulence inside the heatsink.

Or maybe that's all just nonsense. :lol:

Did you read my reply to your first post?


Yes, Jesse, I read it several times, but that doesn't account for the fact that the two fans together were objectively measured by the instrument to have practically the same SPL as just one fan alone -- far less of a difference than the 3 dBa one might expect. So there has to be some (mysterious) phenomenon of acoustics at work here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:35 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
re the second fan -- there's no reason it has to be identical. You could just get a Slipstream (or any slow quiet fan) and roughly match the speeds of the two fans by ear or rpm monitoring on the mobo. A simple voltage conotrller would work fine, as would speedfan on many boards.


This would be fairly hard to do if you use the pwm control as the pwm control turns the fan at only 300RPM at full load and 200RPM at idle these speeds were on a E7200 with everything at stock speeds and voltages. However you could control them both by voltage and most likely be able to get very similair speeds.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:37 pm 
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In an electronic circuit (like a mixer) or in a DAW 2 identical 12db signals added together=15db but in the real world this is never the case since the sound sources are not identical nor are they emited from the same location and differ in distance from the listener or microphone.

Phase cancelation and frequency variations would not add up like in the pure mathimatical formula "sine wave+sine wave=sine wave+3db"


And to the point: the Mugen 2 with its superior fin area seems ideal for cooling high TDP CPUs like i7. Nice one, good price too.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... html#sect0

The table at the bottom of this page sais it all. Using same fan Mugen2 and Megahalems score the same when cooling an i7, though I trust Mike C's accoustic testing and subjective opinion more.

EDIT: I am reffering to the table of temps IDLE/LOAD, not the max OC at the very bottom. may also note that the IFX-14 cools 3c better at idle but at 1560 RPM vs 250 RPM on the Mugen2 and Megahalems.

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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:45 pm 
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Shamgar wrote:
Positive points to Xigmatek for its lower weight and price-to-performance ratio but negative for its lazy oversight (like most heatsink makers) and disregard for AMD users needing to rotate the heatsink for front-to-back airflow. How many times has this point come up in the forums? When will they listen, eh?


The Mugen 2 is actually $3 cheaper than the Xigmatek lol


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:07 am 
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ame wrote:
In an electronic circuit (like a mixer) or in a DAW 2 identical 12db signals added together=15db but in the real world this is never the case since the sound sources are not identical nor are they emited from the same location and differ in distance from the listener or microphone.

Phase cancelation and frequency variations would not add up like in the pure mathimatical formula "sine wave+sine wave=sine wave+3db"



Two signals of identical sound pressure level (SPL) will add together to +6dB, two uncorrelated signals with same SPL will add together to + 3dB

AtW


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:21 am 
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Quote:
Two signals of identical sound pressure level (SPL) will add together to +6dB, two uncorrelated signals with same SPL will add together to + 3dB

AtW


Acctually the signals themselvs have to be identical for that to happen.

Take 1 1khz tone at say 20 db add to it a 10 khz tone at 20 db and the total spl will still be 20 db as they dont affect one another. now add a 100 hz tone at 20 db and it still 20 db. this is totally frequency dependant and needs to be phase accurate for it to happen like you said.

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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:45 am 
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Vibrator wrote:
Shamgar wrote:
Positive points to Xigmatek for its lower weight and price-to-performance ratio but negative for its lazy oversight (like most heatsink makers) and disregard for AMD users needing to rotate the heatsink for front-to-back airflow. How many times has this point come up in the forums? When will they listen, eh?


The Mugen 2 is actually $3 cheaper than the Xigmatek lol

Depends on where you live! You cannot interpret the US$ price for what it will sell for elsewhere it in the world. Where I live, Mugen 2 is at least $24 more than Xigmatek HDT-S1283. Must be some sort of a Scythe "tax". Good thing I bought the Slipstreams when they were cheap. When you factor in that Mugen 2 includes a better PWM fan and the backplate mounting hardware is included, you could argue the difference is so minimal that Scythe gets the upper hand when all things are considered.

We have much weaker retail competition here, our exchange rate is relatively weak, we pay a GST, high shipping costs and have a strong minimum wage system so prices tend to be quite higher here than in the northern continents. You guys get cheap PC parts; we have a decent health, welfare and wage system. You can't have it all, can you? But we are an insignificant part of the world anyway, so forget us and everything I've said. Enjoy your Mugen 2s. :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:40 am 
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ame wrote:
Quote:
Two signals of identical sound pressure level (SPL) will add together to +6dB, two uncorrelated signals with same SPL will add together to + 3dB

AtW


Acctually the signals themselvs have to be identical for that to happen.

Take 1 1khz tone at say 20 db add to it a 10 khz tone at 20 db and the total spl will still be 20 db as they dont affect one another. now add a 100 hz tone at 20 db and it still 20 db. this is totally frequency dependant and needs to be phase accurate for it to happen like you said.


Yeah, i meant to say two identical signals in the first sentence, it was a comment about adding to identical 12 dB signals, wich will give a SPL of 18 db, not 15 dB. To get +3dB you dont have to add two identical signals, you get +3dB when you add uncorrelated signals. Two fans are broadband (usually) uncorrelated noise, if both have the same SPL, they should added togheter give +3dB.

AtW


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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:44 am 
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Shamgar wrote:
We have much weaker retail competition here, our exchange rate is relatively weak, we pay a GST, high shipping costs and have a strong minimum wage system so prices tend to be quite higher here than in the northern continents. You guys get cheap PC parts; we have a decent health, welfare and wage system. You can't have it all, can you? But we are an insignificant part of the world anyway, so forget us and everything I've said. Enjoy your Mugen 2s. :(


hey mate, you guys get better surf than we do here in the continential u.s. :-) that's enough reason to move to australia right there!


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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:58 am 
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Vibrator wrote:
The Mugen 2 is actually $3 cheaper than the Xigmatek lol

*checks*
Seems like newegg has been ramping up the prices on the Xigmateks lately - when I bought my 1284EE about 2 months back, it was $5 cheaper. Might be due to exchange rate fluctuations (Xigmatek's taiwanese, right?).


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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:19 am 
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danimal wrote:
hey mate, you guys get better surf than we do here in the continential u.s. :-) that's enough reason to move to australia right there!

I'm a land, trees and rivers person myself; not too fond of the sand and sea. But, whatever takes your fancy :).

K.Murx wrote:
Vibrator wrote:
The Mugen 2 is actually $3 cheaper than the Xigmatek lol

*checks*
Seems like newegg has been ramping up the prices on the Xigmateks lately - when I bought my 1284EE about 2 months back, it was $5 cheaper. Might be due to exchange rate fluctuations (Xigmatek's taiwanese, right?).

I thought all computer parts trade was done in US$ no matter where the country of origin. Would be interesting to know for sure.


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 Post subject: 2 fans vs 1 fan SPL
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:41 am 
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OK, to clarify the 2 fans vs 1 fan SPL measurements and perceived noise, I ran some extended tests this morning on a pair of brand new Yate Loon sleeve bearing 120x25mm fans. These are exactly the same as the Nexus 120, except the top speed is slightly higher than that of the Nexus which is 1000~1100. All the tests were conducted in the anechoic chamber, whose ambient was reading ~11 dBA. The two fans were blowing in the same direction, spaced 2" apart on a piece of foam at the edge of our test table. rpm was set using a calibrated strobe light.

either fan at 1000 rpm: 14 dBA/1m
both fans at 1000 rpm: 18 dBA/1m

This makes sense, more or less. Theory says it should be a 3 dBA difference at 1m, but there are some reflections in the room from the table, other gear, etc...

either fan at 700 rpm: 11 dBA/1m -- 12 dBA/0.5m
both fans at 700 rpm: 12 dBA/1m -- 14 dBA/0.5m

The first reading above -- 11 dBA/1m for the single fan at 700rpm (which is roughly the same speed as 7V w/ the Nexus 120) -- is suspect.

Why? It's the ambient level. This means the fan could be anywhere between 0 and 11 dBA/1m and there's no way to tell, because 11 dBA is the lowest we can measure. The second reading for the same single fan at 700 rpm, of 12 dBA at half a meter tells us that the fan would probably measure 4-6 dBA lower in a 0 dBA chamber, or 6~8 dBA/1m.

So when both fans at 700 rpm measure 12 dBA/1m, it makes sense. Each fan by itself was actually only 6~8 dBA/1m. Why then, does it go up only by 2 dBA with both fans? uh.... I don't quite get the why of it but I can hear it.

To sum up...

Larry measured 12 dBA for 1 Nexus fan or 2 in his original test. I measured 1 dBA difference this morn. Why? The levels are so close to the chamber ambient... we could call the difference within the margin of error.

It could also be that the first Nexus fan was a bit noisier than the second so that when the second quieter fan was turned on, no increase registered. The Yate Loon fans I used are brand new, while the Nexus 120s Larry used have been in use around the lab for quite a while (probably at least a year).

The gist of the matter is that any of these fans at 700rpm is really not audible under any normal circumstance -- ie, in an enclosed computer a meter away. Two are still inaudible in almost any ambient. When you get really close to the fans -- less than a foot -- you can hear when one fan is turned off but you'd really be hard pressed to say it's quieter.

Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 fans vs 1 fan SPL
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:29 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Hopefully, that clarifies things a bit.


Yeah, totally. Each fan by itself at 700 rpm might only increase the ambient by about 25%, even at 0.5m. So with two of 'em, only about 50%. There's your 2 dBA.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Of course, this leads to: I wonder how the other top performers do with a similar set up? :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:21 pm 
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thanks for the detailed test abut 2 fans vs 1.

sorry to plug this review again but is has this test involving 2 fans

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... up_19.html

I think the reason why both IFX 14 and Mugen2 get the best scores with 2 fans has to do with the pull fan being able to pull some cooler air from the gaps in the heat sink (or from between the 2 sinks in the IFX). this seems like it would help bring temps down a notch.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:31 pm 
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ATWindsor wrote:
ame wrote:
In an electronic circuit (like a mixer) or in a DAW 2 identical 12db signals added together=15db but in the real world this is never the case since the sound sources are not identical nor are they emited from the same location and differ in distance from the listener or microphone.

Phase cancelation and frequency variations would not add up like in the pure mathimatical formula "sine wave+sine wave=sine wave+3db"



Two signals of identical sound pressure level (SPL) will add together to +6dB, two uncorrelated signals with same SPL will add together to + 3dB

AtW


Yeah +6db. my bad.


my point was this equasion works in a perfert circuit. In the real world, as Mike just demostrated result vary wildly.
Its perfectly reasonable that 2 very low RPM fans wouldnt register more noise than one.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:27 pm 
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considering the size of the cooler, the location of cpu sockets and the common 120mm fan exhaust on most cases - putting in a 2nd fan may be a bit of a problem, it will end up being very close to the exhaust in alot of situations.

perhaps the exhaust alone will be close enough to give a pretty good performance increase as opposed to a single fan on an open bench?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Hi,

I think all but the hottest CPU's will be fine with one fan or a duct to the rear exhaust (and to the PSU?), and for those that need it a duct and a fan pushing into the heatsink. Two fans with a duct to the rear exhaust fan (3 fans) would be overkill.

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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:49 pm 
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Posts: 94
Location: British Columbia
Shamgar wrote:
Vibrator wrote:
Shamgar wrote:
Positive points to Xigmatek for its lower weight and price-to-performance ratio but negative for its lazy oversight (like most heatsink makers) and disregard for AMD users needing to rotate the heatsink for front-to-back airflow. How many times has this point come up in the forums? When will they listen, eh?


The Mugen 2 is actually $3 cheaper than the Xigmatek lol

Depends on where you live! You cannot interpret the US$ price for what it will sell for elsewhere it in the world. Where I live, Mugen 2 is at least $24 more than Xigmatek HDT-S1283. Must be some sort of a Scythe "tax". Good thing I bought the Slipstreams when they were cheap. When you factor in that Mugen 2 includes a better PWM fan and the backplate mounting hardware is included, you could argue the difference is so minimal that Scythe gets the upper hand when all things are considered.

We have much weaker retail competition here, our exchange rate is relatively weak, we pay a GST, high shipping costs and have a strong minimum wage system so prices tend to be quite higher here than in the northern continents. You guys get cheap PC parts; we have a decent health, welfare and wage system. You can't have it all, can you? But we are an insignificant part of the world anyway, so forget us and everything I've said. Enjoy your Mugen 2s. :(


Canada's prices aren't great either lol

Our selection sucks too

There's like no thermaltake stuff here (Except overpriced V1's @ $100)
No Megahalems
Half the Thermalright stuff isn't available
Can't get half the Xigmatek stuff (Only S1283 and it's variants, D1264's, and S963's are available)
Coolermaster selection sucks
Scythe stuff availablility is patchy at best

..etc


I'm just basing prices off the US because most people are from there
(Yes I'm jealous of them too)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:45 pm 
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marc999 wrote:
How would you connect two of these PWM fans to the single CPU connector on the MOBO...


I have used and would recommend this http://www.akasa.co.uk/update.php?tpl=product/product.detail.tpl&no=181&type=Cables&type_sub=Fan%20Cable%20Adapters&model=AK-CB002 which avoids pulling any fan current through the motherboard completely.


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 Post subject: Re: Slight error
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:30 am 
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Posts: 497
Location: London, UK
MikeC wrote:
K.Murx wrote:
The "Specifications" Table, Item "weight:
Quote:
870 g, 30.7 lb

Now that's one badass heatsink :lol: [Linux "units" says 870 g => 1.92 lb]

Straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/0 ... etail.html
Speaking about units, I think the commata aren't in the right position for the size specifications in inches.
Quote:
130 x 100 x 158 mm
51.2 x 39.4 x 62.2 inch


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:41 pm 
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http://www.scythe-eu.com/forum/mugen-series/

the official scythe forum, for questions regarding fitment issues and such.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:11 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Hi,

I think all but the hottest CPU's will be fine with one fan or a duct to the rear exhaust (and to the PSU?), and for those that need it a duct and a fan pushing into the heatsink. Two fans with a duct to the rear exhaust fan (3 fans) would be overkill.

Given how fat (100mm depth) the the Mugen is compared to most tower heatsinks, other than Ninja, would you even need a duct? Typical tower heatsink depth seems around 60mm, so we are already >1/2" closer to the exhaust just due to the size of this thing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:54 pm 
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jessekopelman wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:
Hi,

I think all but the hottest CPU's will be fine with one fan or a duct to the rear exhaust (and to the PSU?), and for those that need it a duct and a fan pushing into the heatsink. Two fans with a duct to the rear exhaust fan (3 fans) would be overkill.

Given how fat (100mm depth) the the Mugen is compared to most tower heatsinks, other than Ninja, would you even need a duct? Typical tower heatsink depth seems around 60mm, so we are already >1/2" closer to the exhaust just due to the size of this thing.


A duct would help guide airflow


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Thanks lodestar, sweet product. Even found a store on their "where to buy" list that will ship to Canada! Much appreciated!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:32 am 
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MikeC wrote:
The contenders are...

Prolimatech Megahalems
Thermalright U120E
Xigmatek HDT-S1283
Noctua NH-U12P
Zalman CNPS10X Extreme
Thermolab Baram

These have large enough fin surface area and tight fin spacing to make 2-fan push-pull worthwhile. Not the Ninja or HR01.

I nominate the Zerotherm Zen FZ120 for this list. US shoppers can watch Newegg for deals on the Xigmatek & Zerotherm, with each available below $20 at times. Combine one with YL 120(s), and you'll have a top-notch HSF for around $25.


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