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 Post subject: Scythe Top-Down Coolers: Kabuto vs. Zipang 2
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Scythe Top-Down Coolers: Kabuto vs. Zipang 2

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:36 am 
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Results of both top-downers for scythe are very impressive, there's just two things I don't raeally like about them: Push-pins for LGA 775 ( there's no much choice though ) and the fact both cooler's are lying down just on one sets of heat pipes making heatpipes bend. I like Original Zipang because it has two sets of heat pipes giving a lot more rigid nature. Also Noctua C12P is very rigid.

For a top down, just lying on one sets of heatpipes, so that coolers weight it self can bend the heatpipes is something what I am concerning somehow. It probably doesn't matter really at all but still I wish scythe would have supported the main coolering fins somehow just other than with single sets of heat pipes...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:37 am 
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thejamppa wrote:
Results of both top-downers for scythe are very impressive, there's just two things I don't raeally like about them: Push-pins for LGA 775 ( there's no much choice though ) and the fact both cooler's are lying down just on one sets of heat pipes making heatpipes bend. I like Original Zipang because it has two sets of heat pipes giving a lot more rigid nature. Also Noctua C12P is very rigid.


I agree. Good performance but too weak mounting option. I think so many people out there neglect the VRM heat issues associated with tower coolers.

Thanks for the review!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:08 am 
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Nice review, as usual for SPCR.

The article states that the Kabuto does not come with an LGA1366 mounting frame, but the one I bought and installed in a Core i7 system last month did include one...so maybe they've started to include one in the packaging.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:15 am 
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I'm more interested in the Kaze Maru, sounds like it would make an excellent exhaust fan.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:45 am 
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This shows that top-down coolers have their (worthy) place despite the ubiquity and popularity of tower coolers in recent times. For those of us who care about motherboard cooling, products like these are always welcome. Now that some top-downers can match or even outperform towers, there need not be that feeling of opting for a second class product anymore.

It is a real shame, however, that Scythe did not include bolt through mounting mechanisms with these coolers, given their size and weight. Another missed opportunity on their part. What we do have to congratulate Scythe for is their continuation of including quality stock fans with their heatsinks. Something that is usually an afterthought or no thought at all with other heatsink manufacturers. A good differentiation for Scythe and a good value-added for their customers.

I found this statement amusing in the FINAL THOUGHTS on page9:
" (...) except for Scythe's own monstrosity, Orochi, which is so oversized that we've vowed never to review it lest skimming readers interpret the mere existence of the article as our tacit approval (even though we use one in a silent lab PC)."

I wonder what else has been interpreted as SPCR's tacit approval? :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:05 am 
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How come you didn't test the Zipang 2 with the stock Nexus fan?

The fan clips work with 120mm fans too you know.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:41 am 
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That statement about not going to review Orochi because just the act of reviewing (regardless of results) might be misinterpreted as recommending, is just ridiculous. For god's sake, you've reviewed many very noisy fans only because they've been CLAIMED to be quiet by the manufacturer, and proven their claims to be bullshit. Now, you're afraid of trying to disprove Scythe's claim that Orochi is quiet. Is it concern about damaging the test system with too much weight and being able to continue reviewing with identical hardware? Why weren't you scared about damaging it with push-pin mounted tower heatsinks then? Push-pins are designed for low-profile (=>low cantilever force) low-weight (=>even lower cantilever force) stock heatsinks. 700 grams on stock Intel mounting is probably at least as extreme as 1150 gram Orochi with it's proper back plate mounting.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Vibrator wrote:
How come you didn't test the Zipang 2 with the stock Nexus fan?

The fan clips work with 120mm fans too you know.


The Nexus fan would be at a distinct disadvantage because the surface of the Zipang 2 is so large. It's designed to be used with a 140mm fan. It would be like putting a 100mm fan on a 120mm heatsink.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:49 pm 
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whiic --

You could call it arbitrary or unfounded, but we have our reasons. Lots of PR folks believe there's no such thing as bad PR.

facts --

1) Orochi weighs 1.285 kg or 2.84 lb w/ fan -- that's a far cry from any HSF we've tested. Almost anything ~1kg has a proper bolt-through mounting system.

2) w/ a fan it stands 7.8 inches tall. 6.8" w/o. W/ fan it will not fit into a P180 series case. Ditto Solo and most other mid tower cases. The Megahalems & Zalman 10x, which are the tallest towers, are only a little over 6" w/ or w/o fan.

3) The Orochi A we received does not have bolt through mounting for either 775 or AMD. For the latter, it uses clips on the stock HS retension bracket (you know that plastic piece with two nubs for the clip) -- which at least one user has reported as being unusable when the mobo is mounted vertically as in a standard tower case: the clip slips off due the the high stress of the cantilever weight. This could easily break the plastic bracket. For 775, it uses metal hardware recycled from the original Ninja, which turns the 775 socket into a 478 style bracket... with clips that latch on the bracket. I've played with this on both the newer Ninjas and the Orochi and say it's as bad as the AMD clip, maybe worse -- the shape and strength of the clips are not up to it.

4) finally, it's such an excess of material resources that I personally find it appalling. The only reason it's on the silent lab pc is because they sent a sample and it would be a waste to leave it hanging around.

Very few other heatsinks we've reviewed come even close to the excessiveness of the Orochi.

Surely anyone with half a brain can assess the utility of the Orochi w/o a review: It'll probably cool most CPUs passively with just a bit of peripheral airflow, but it won't be great w/ a fan for hot CPUs because of wide fin spacing (low cooling surface density per cubic volume), and the risk during installation and long term stress on the board will be higher than anything else we've ever seen.

Anyway we review what we want to review when we think there's a need/demand.

-----

ps -- I see that Orochi is now in B rev. and comes with what appears to be a real bolt-through kit. If they send one of those, we might reconsider after close examination.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:02 pm 
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MikeC: "You could call it arbitrary or unfounded, but we have our reasons. Lots of PR folks believe there's no such thing as bad PR."

1) Whether "all PR = good PR" applies to everything is something that can be disagreed on. Sure, if you want to get to the tabloids and be a center of attention for the purpose of being center of attention, it is no doubt true. For a product it doesn't necessarily apply. Horrible products are considered a joke and talked about a lot. But do they get extra paying customers because everyone knows they are horrible?

2) Even IF we assumed "all PR = good PR", why the hell did you give AcoustiFan bad PR (= good PR) by including it in 120mm fan round-up? You are being inconsistent in giving justification for leaving something potentially relevant (though also potentially hazardous) un-reviewed.

"Orochi weighs 1.285 kg or 2.84 lb w/ fan -- that's a far cry from any HSF we've tested."

So, 10 years back you probably wouldn't have reviewed stuff like TRUE or Ninja because they were wayyyy heavier than any HSF reviewed so far?

Also, any of the massive heatpipe coolers work well with a fan attached to it. Orochi could be used for passive cooling... so weight of the fan could be reduced from total. After all, the fan doesn't even match the size of Orochi (even though the fan is 140mm, it's still too small in one dimension to use all the fins).

"w/ a fan it stands 7.8 inches tall. 6.8" w/o. W/ fan it will not fit into a P180 series case. Ditto Solo and most other mid tower cases."

But you don't have to put the fan on top of the HS. After all, it needs extra space on the intake side of fan for the fan to work effectively (= quietly compared to achieved performance). If you want a fan, Orochi allow mounting fan on any side. I would use fan to push air toward exhaust fan(s) rather than use it as downward pushing... Pushing air down wouldn't help VRM temperature eather as Orochi has large surface are and needs only low air volume. Low air volume + big distance between fan and VRM = very small airflow around VRM. Also, low airflow speed + large fin size = high temperature of air exiting HSF. I would rather blow it out of the case instead toward VRM... Orochi for top-down is pretty ridiculous, IMO. (Well, it's pretty ridiculous in any configuration, but I guess the only real reason for Orochi is show-off. Many want to show off - knowing if it's also quiet or not would be nice as there are several products that compete in the "Ridiculous" Class of HSFs.)

I, for example, might consider Orochi Rev.B for my future i7 build. I would use a slightly aged Centurion 530 case because of it's low on intake resistance and easy to duct to exhaust (and the lack of top fan present in many other high airflow cases makes ducting even easier and there's no pondering where the HSF should be facing). I would either use exhaust fan on case and duct to HS or push-configuration on HS and duct to exhaust. Also need to mod the side panel with plexiglass so that everyone else can see that I'm totally mad. The case is a bit wider than 19cm so I bet that without a fan on top of Orochi, it would fit into Centurion easily.

I would also probably come up with a solution to partially support the weight of Orochi by use of some rope attached to top of the case. This might improve heat transfer as well as make it less hazardous.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:56 pm 
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whiic -- see, you don't need a review from SPCR to conclude all that. ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:30 pm 
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Mike, at the end of the day, you review what you want to review -- as you stated earlier. The Orochi was one of those peculiar products that had the potential to cause a stir amongst SPCRians and those who visit the site. Had you reviewed it and given it a strong rating in the recommended charts, I can just imagine the bandwagon getting full with people buying up Orochis left, right and centre; later experiencing problems with its excessive weight and mounting mechanisms and directing their fury at SPCR for the "tacit approval" in the first place. Not that they didn't know what they were getting into beforehand...

I'm with you on regarding the Orochi as pure Babylonian style excess. Sure, some processors run very hot and require extreme cooling. Whether such excess is required is up to the user and their particular PC. Some people like myself just avoid heavyweights as much as they can while others find them tempting and the use thereof potentially beneficial in their setups.

Should the Rev.B find itself delivered to your door, it's your call on whether you keep it in the cupboard or bring it to the testbench for review. I'm not fussed either way as I'm not interested in it although the review would be fun to read. Don't lose any sleep over the decision though. :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:25 am 
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MikeC wrote:
whiic --

You could call it arbitrary or unfounded, but we have our reasons. Lots of PR folks believe there's no such thing as bad PR.

facts --

1) Orochi weighs 1.285 kg or 2.84 lb w/ fan -- that's a far cry from any HSF we've tested. Almost anything ~1kg has a proper bolt-through mounting system.

3) The Orochi A we received does not have bolt through mounting for either 775 or AMD. For the latter, it uses clips on the stock HS retension bracket (you know that plastic piece with two nubs for the clip) -- which at least one user has reported as being unusable when the mobo is mounted vertically as in a standard tower case: the clip slips off due the the high stress of the cantilever weight. This could easily break the plastic bracket. For 775, it uses metal hardware recycled from the original Ninja, which turns the 775 socket into a 478 style bracket... with clips that latch on the bracket. I've played with this on both the newer Ninjas and the Orochi and say it's as bad as the AMD clip, maybe worse -- the shape and strength of the clips are not up to it.


Pushpins are fine dude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N99uS5zE8I8


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:39 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
I see that Orochi is now in B rev. and comes with what appears to be a real bolt-through kit. If they send one of those, we might reconsider after close examination.

Speaking as someone who was frightened even by the original Ninja, I have to admit I'd be interested in seeing how the Orochi performed in quasi-fanless mode in a P18x/P19x or a mini-P180, assuming it would fit in each case...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:30 am 
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Vibrator wrote:

Notice that they don't show the board in use after that? Also, while the initial tension of pushpins is usually fine, it does wear down over time and they are prone to breaking after several (un)installations.

The point of the bolt-through method is to both generate even pressure (and more of it) and prevent motherboard flexing due to pins that may be too tight.

While most of my builds use push-pins, I wouldn't do it on a large HS, especially one like the Orochi.

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 Post subject: Orochi review
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:55 am 
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I guess anyone who wants to read a review of the Scythe Orochi can read one at x-bit labs: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... rochi.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:39 pm 
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I was thinking of using one of these in a HTPC case, the antec NSK2480 to be exact.

Hard to find the mini ninja anymore. Do you think that these would do okay with a CROSS blowing fan without the fan on top? I was thinking of using the 2 120mm fans to blow INTO the case across the heatsink.

Let me know what you guys thing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:40 am 
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Mankey wrote:
Do you think that these would do okay with a CROSS blowing fan without the fan on top? I was thinking of using the 2 120mm fans to blow INTO the case across the heatsink.

That's not how they were built. They have way more top surface area than side surface area. Moreover: see those vertical gaps? Those allow air from the top in between the fins. The gaps are useless from the side. Unless of course you blow in parallel to the gaps, but then that's perpendicular to the fins, and the air flow would be pretty nonexisting.

I would only do this if I was certain they'd cool your CPU without any fan.


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