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 Post subject: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:30 pm 
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http://www.silentpcreview.com/Be_Quiet_Dark_Rock_2


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Jeez. They need to take this one out of the market quick to save their brand.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:07 pm 
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I was always skeptical about be quiet! branded stuff partly because they hardly ever come up as reviews in spcr. This is despite the glowing reviews of their products in other websites. My initial prediction was that this product was going to be just "ok", but seeing this review gives a sense of disappointment. The quality of the product is perhaps too poor for the asking price.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:40 pm 
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To be fair, they don't come up much on the US review sites because they primarily operate in Europe. But I'll agree they're not making a good impression with this one :-/.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:32 am 
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And this is why we need the SPCR level of testing, thanks for the heads-up. "What's in a name" indeed.

Been a long time since a PSU from them got reviewed, maybe that's coming sometime further down the line.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:03 am 
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Looks like bequiet! opted to go to far "low end" by saving in the wrong places. Presumably their beating the OEMs ceo by now.

They might come up with the "factory produced a bad charge-joker" but the damage to bequiet!'s reputation is done.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Just from this picture I knew it wasn't going to be very good. A lot of the airflow must flow out of the top and sides looking at that, with a bulk of the heatsink sitting there with dead air (no airflow through the middle). As for the price, you can get a Thermalright HR-02 Macho for £40 so it's like they shouldn't even bother trying to compete. Oh and I like how they send another sample that performs 5*C worse. Great quality control lol.


I'd also like to quote tweaktown.com for the lolz...
Quote:
Once 12 V is pushed through the fan, there isn't much of an increase at all to the level of sound coming from the CPU cooler. With it registering at 42 dB, this cooler needs you to be very close to it to be able to hear it at all and I mean like your whole head in the case close.

My god, it's like everyone outside of the SPCR land has severe hearing damage.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Quote:
My god, it's like everyone outside of the SPCR land has severe hearing damage.


Not just that, their sound measuring equipment is just plain shit, and its not like you can even use the Db numbers in their reviews for comparison as they are so skewed as to be worthless. This BTW is not a dig at "tweaktown", this is true to every other review site out there.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Utter manure. Be-Quiet should be ashamed of releasing such overpriced rubbish.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:19 am 
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BeQuiet! is on my personal short list of manufacturers I avoid. I used to have a PSU made by them, which died in a cloud of smoke and they refused to honor the warranty. From what I've seen in this review, their quality control is still a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:15 am 
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This is just one product; I wouldn't write off or judge the entire brand based on this review. I have in hand a couple of very promising Seasonic-made gold & platinum 80+ PSUs from bequiet!that I'll be tackling soon.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:25 am 
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Sounds good Mike! Looking forward to it. I do hope one of the units will try for mainstream instead of premium pricing.

I think Bequiet! getting the stick is well deserved here (choosing that company name, then delivering this, this... product :lol: ), but it is indeed just one product. Their PSU received a positive review in the past, so I feel a deja vu coming on: Nexus Skivetek coolers were rather crap in the past, but it turned out their fans and PSUs were good performers and good value.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:52 am 
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MikeC wrote:
This is just one product; I wouldn't write off or judge the entire brand based on this review. I have in hand a couple of very promising Seasonic-made gold & platinum 80+ PSUs from bequiet!that I'll be tackling soon.

As far as the brands range of PSU's go I've never had any bad experiences, at all. I'm currently using a Dark Power Pro which I'm very happy with.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Das_Saunamies wrote:
Sounds good Mike! Looking forward to it. I do hope one of the units will try for mainstream instead of premium pricing.

I think Bequiet! getting the stick is well deserved here (choosing that company name, then delivering this, this... product :lol: ), but it is indeed just one product. Their PSU received a positive review in the past, so I feel a deja vu coming on: Nexus Skivetek coolers were rather crap in the past, but it turned out their fans and PSUs were good performers and good value.


Judging from reviews all over the web: Other cpu cooler made by bequiet! are giving the expected results, supplying cool cpu temps while creating really acceptable noise levels. If "acceptable noise level" do live up to spcr standards cannot be told.

Personal experience with bequiet! psu: All i have used were mostly quiet, and those few that needed rma were handled/changed by bequiet!, covered by their warranty. They even send me a replacement psu before i returned the one i wanted to rma!


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Wow, surprised by this review. A lot of German websites had given Be Quiet quite stellar reviews, and I was tempted to test them out and order them from over the Atlantic.

Are the fans the same as the famed silent wings 2?


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:29 am 
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MikeC wrote:
This is just one product; I wouldn't write off or judge the entire brand based on this review. I have in hand a couple of very promising Seasonic-made gold & platinum 80+ PSUs from bequiet!that I'll be tackling soon.


Well, I had a very bad experience with their PSU (they weren't always made by Seasonic), and I've read an unfavourable SPCR review about their HSF. I guess I'm not going to try their fans, as there are decent and cheaper brands :)

I'm looking forward to the review though :)

Pappnaas wrote:
Personal experience with bequiet! psu: All i have used were mostly quiet, and those few that needed rma were handled/changed by bequiet!, covered by their warranty. They even send me a replacement psu before i returned the one i wanted to rma!


Well, it's a German brand, so no wonder their warranty service is so good in Germany. Things don't look as nice east of Oder ;)

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:30 am 
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Pappnaas wrote:
Das_Saunamies wrote:
I think Bequiet! getting the stick is well deserved here (choosing that company name, then delivering this, this... product :lol: ), but it is indeed just one product. Their PSU received a positive review in the past, so I feel a deja vu coming on: Nexus Skivetek coolers were rather crap in the past, but it turned out their fans and PSUs were good performers and good value.

Judging from reviews all over the web: Other cpu cooler made by bequiet! are giving the expected results, supplying cool cpu temps while creating really acceptable noise levels. If "acceptable noise level" do live up to spcr standards cannot be told.

You're quite right. Even the Skivetek coolers got okay reviews, as memory serves, but they were rather horrible when compared to the Good Stuff. And those were even the days when Zalman still passed for Good Stuff.

Most other sites have such low-standards measuring and review processes they're not of any real value or use beyond regular word-of-mouth. Not to mention the suspicion already mentioned that their staff may have some degree of hearing loss. It's probably just the attitude they have though, perhaps stemming from only ever having used, configured and cared for loud components and setups.

At least some places test consistently and with actual measuring equipment, so if you have a known reference point in their chart, you can take a guess at what the sound level is for a given product (but nothing more).

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:06 am 
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Hi together, I think a statement from our side might be good in this case.

While we have the greatest respect for both SPCR and their testing methodology, they have, for some inexplicable reason, had problems with this cooler which have not occurred elsewhere . We have pasted below the links to 3 other reviews of the Dark Rock 2, all from internationally respected sites. You can see that every other test is completely at odds with the SPCR result which makes it a true outlier. While we won’t argue with SPCR or the result that they have achieved and quite fairly re-tested to confirm, fair-minded readers should know that other review sites have drawn completely different conclusions about both the performance and the quietness of this product.

PC Games Hardware
TweakTown
KitGuru

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Having read the reviews here, and at both Tweaktown and Kitguru, I find that while the SPCR review gives even better reviews of the sound level(stock fan), 24dba vs 29 and 42(!) in the other reviews, the big difference is in the temperatures observed.

While the Kitguru Temperatures are significantly lower, they are also conducted in a case, with an exhaust fan. And the Tweaktown review, the temperatures are largely similar under load.

So...it's not that the SPCR review is an outlier, it's that the reviews all say about the same thing.

The difference is mostly in the criteria for judging the merits of a HSF.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Appreciate the manufacturer response, always nice to see makers take an interest!

I have been wondering if there was an installation error or transportation damage, but the first would surely result in even higher temperatures, and the latter happening to three samples is not likely. Jotting it down to bad samples wouldn't look so good either. The TIM print is pretty telling already, and the cooling results are lower-end but not unrealistic - especially when they are consistent across three fans and you consider the TDP, and the fact that other coolers have cleared the exact same setup (see opinion on consistency in the linked reviews).

As I tried to access the linked reviews, the first link to PC Games Hardware requires some sort of login, and there is no way to register for one that I can see.

In Tweaktown's chart the Dark Rock 2 is at the low end, within a few degrees of the Noctua NH-L12 - a 120 mm blowdown cooler nearly half DR2's weight and with only four heatpipes to the DR2's six - even in the OC'd load test, where a bigger cooler would be expected to do better, but where in fact the Noctua closes the gap by 1 °C (but that might as well be normal variation). TTown's gaps are strangely linear in this fashion, as the Silver Arrow, a remarkable double-fan behemoth, only gains the same one degree of lead. This makes me think something is amiss with the procedure used. TT's tester seems to have been changing their kit around, as they apologise for the results not being comparable, so I don't really know what conclusions can be drawn from the review. All I know is the TTown result figures are above and below the SPCR figures, corresponding to presumed TDP ratings (overclocking is unpredictable) and differences in testing procedure (stress-test software and its settings, physical setup). The TTown acoustic testing procedure is basically not explained at all, uses overly simplistic, arbitrary variables and produces suspicious results to say the least.

The Kitguru test mentions the same "previous results not comparable" caveat, so again not sure what to make of it. Good thing the chart is by and far inconsequential, as there are only three coolers and no good reference points ("known good model"). The other coolers are also double-fan models, as mentioned in the review, and thus the acoustic results heavily skewed - not to mention the test was only done at maximum fan speed, which is ludicrous if we are to be concerned with noise levels. The whole point of multi-fan coolers, for example, is to provide more airflow with less RPM. It is impressive, however, how poorly the double-fan models manage against the Dark Rock 2 in cooling power - but that is saying more about them than DR2, here.

So these reviews, to me, say nothing to suggest SPCR's appraisal of DR2's performance was flawed. The product works, but has issues, and the value seems questionable, as I could find the Top 4 Noctua NH-U12P for £48 on first go.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Sorry about the PCGH link, I attached some pages of it now, hope the resolution is still alright to actually read it. It's in German but we techies can read the important parts, right?

Anyway, just to complete the story. Thanks.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Chris@bequiet! wrote:
While we won’t argue with SPCR or the result that they have achieved and quite fairly re-tested to confirm, fair-minded readers should know that other review sites have drawn completely different conclusions about both the performance and the quietness of this product.


Unfortunately that doesn't explain / solve the bad performance in SPCR testing.

Glad to hear SPCR is reviewing some Be Quiet PSUs though. Straight Power E9 is included I assume?


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:10 pm 
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While there hasn't been any overt criticism about SPCR's heatsink testing method, the simple statement that other reviewers have reached different conclusions casts covert aspersions.

In all honesty, I think those other reviews are badly flawed.

Anyway, to clear the air, I ran another couple of tests, with higher mounting pressure, and then with another heatsink. This is in an addendum to the original review: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1277-page8.html

I think you'll agree with me that the non-flat/concave profile of the Dark Pro 2 is clearly at the root of its mediocre performance, at least on our test platform -- ie, that 1366 i7 CPU and that motherboard.

Granted, if the integrated CPU heatspreader was flatter or convex, the Dark Pro 2 would/should perform much better. BUT, over the many years that heatspreaders have been in use on CPUs, through a hundred such CPU samples, I have yet to come across a single one which has a convex top surface -- the perimeter is almost always slightly and clearly raised compared to the center. At best, integrated CPU heatspreaders are nearly flat; at worst, they are clearly concave.

We can only guess whether those other reviewers received samples with flatter bases, ... but even their more positive results don't show the Dark Pro 2 in a truly positive light, despite the poor consistency of their testing/comparison methods.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Page 8 really says it all. This is perhaps the most conclusive review ive read from spcr for a long while - mike chin nailing the specific issues and fundamentally showing where to improve. Bequiet needs to sort their critical error asap. The heatsink itself looks like a lot of potential, so maybe we can expect a significant improvement with dark rock 3. It may appear that some of their other coolers carry a similar flaw and if so, this improvement can travel to other lines easily.

I also don't quite ring well with the other review sites for reasons already specified. Spcr is still my no.1 review site for noise, if not for pc hardware in general.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:31 pm 
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Thanks for posting the missing review. My German's gotten a bit rusty over the years, but it's easy enough to get the gist of it. Won't be doing any analysis based on a text I barely understand, though.

Thanks to Mike for the frank response and a final test. This is rather conclusive for this chapter overall.

As I have no authority beyond that of any enthusiast, I felt it was not my place to fully condemn the testing of other sites (many of which I use) or defend SPCR's honour. Suffice it to say this is, for me, ultimately about facts and exact science, not preference or pride. Hence I questioned even SPCR in this, but through review of the facts and verification of methods came to the conclusion theirs was a correct result.

I'm glad this was handled in a rather civil manner. The testing provided by SPCR, from planning to execution to review, is on a whole another level compared to most places on the internet and even long-time publications. The research and technical expertise that goes into the SPCR process has been meticulous and the approach and documentation scientific - most regular reviewers seem to take more of an artistic approach often labeled as "practical", but it is in fact simply hastily planned, half-hearted even, when considering the accuracy of documentation and consistency of method and results. There is also often noticeable bias, most evident in the conclusions provided and the wording thereof - this is fine in the context of dialogue, but should not be considered on par with professional statements. The word "freeform" comes to mind.

At best, if consistency is actually maintained, the data charts from these "practical" reviews can be consulted for relations of data points gathered but rarely if ever for absolute figures.

I'm sure SPCR is in no hurry to return to the subject, but would you figure lapping could correct the issue? The more I've thought about this, the more it makes sense that the first red flag was perhaps the most important one.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:36 am 
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Quote:
I'm sure SPCR is in no hurry to return to the subject, but would you figure lapping could correct the issue?

Probably, but that's asking a lot when lots of other cheaper products work better off the shelf.

I expect this HS will still not be a top performer, even with an ideal base, because the fin spacing is too tight for a moderate speed fan that likely doesn't have high enough pressure to push the air all the way through the thick fin stack. What happens in tight fin stacks which are also thick (ie, distance between fan side and opposite side of fin stack) is that the air flows out the sides, which offer less resistance. Hence, a large portion of the center and side of the fin stack opposite the fan won't get much airflow.

Pull out half a dozen fins and space the rest more widely.... or make the fins more narrowly rectangular (to reduce the distance between fan and opposite side of fin stack)... or use a higher pressure, higher speed fan -- these are viable options to try and make this a champ cooler -- after the base issue is corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:29 am 
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MikeC wrote:
I expect this HS will still not be a top performer, even with an ideal base, because the fin spacing is too tight for a moderate speed fan that likely doesn't have high enough pressure to push the air all the way through the thick fin stack.
The Mugen is a fairly large and square heatsink.

1. The Dark Rock 2 has fin spacing of 2.22 mm
2. The Mugen has fin spacing of 1.89 mm
3. The Mugen's Slipstream isn't the world's best performer in high impedance situations.
4. Yet the Mugen is a top performer, with an SPCR rating of 9.

Thermalright HR-02 Macho has fin spacing of 3.12 mm, yet the Mugen with its 1.89 mm (approximately 60% of the Macho) does not seem to be hobbled in the least by this in performance comparison to the Macho, using SPCR test results. See:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1279-page6.html
and
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1138-page6.html

With a fin spacing that is 0.33 mm (about 15%) less than the Dark Rock, why does the Mugen not suffer from the same fin spacing problem as the Dark Rock?

I understand the fin spacing theory. It makes much sense to me. But what elements of the Mugen design permit this heat sink bumble bee to fly just fine thank you? And other than the surface mount problem of the Black Rock, which of these elements is the Black Rock missing?

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"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:05 am 
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Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
The Mugen does not have a monolithic fin stack; it has 5 fin stacks separated by air gaps of 3~4 mm between them. That makes it very different, the airflow resistance is far lower than a single fin stack of the same overall size.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:58 am
Posts: 197
Location: UK
Chris@bequiet! wrote:
While we have the greatest respect for both SPCR and their testing methodology, they have, for some inexplicable reason, had problems with this cooler which have not occurred elsewhere.

Lol wut. Did you read the review? It's spelled out for you. Bad quality control. You even sent another sample that performed 5*C worse! Such large variances in quality is enough of a reason to avoid this HSF, never mind the completely lacklustre performance at best.


Chris@bequiet! wrote:
We have pasted below the links to 3 other reviews of the Dark Rock 2, all from internationally respected sites.

Oh really? Well they are not very respected around here. In fact, they are pretty much a joke. Seriously, "this cooler needs you to be very close to it to be able to hear it at all and I mean like your whole head in the case close" - Tweaktown. Wow, such detailed and well written review. Their temperature measurements are equally worthless at best. A complete mess of results with every entry seemingly using a different fan and/or fan speed, and different ambient temperature (which is not accounted for), and different thermal load!


kitguru is even more of a joke if that's possible. They think it's important enough to talk about how "The cooler ships with a protective cover on the core" (the core??), but they don't think it necessary to mention the quality of the base... "This is not a direct contact base, but there are six thick heatpipes running into the block on either side, leading into the racks of aluminum fins." You don't say! When they get to the testing, they only seem to compare the HSF to 2 others! And even in the conclusion they criticise the retail price. Oh and take a look at their application of thermal paste. *facepalm*


Chris@bequiet! wrote:
You can see that every other test is completely at odds with the SPCR result which makes it a true outlier.

Well you can't cross compare the results from different sites. Or you are trying to say that only SPCR gave a bad review, therefore implying that only SPCR is wrong? Well you should focus on attacking the SPCR testing methodology instead if you want to go down this route. Why other sites fail so hard is not for SPCR to investigate or care about.


Chris@bequiet! wrote:
other review sites have drawn completely different conclusions about both the performance and the quietness of this product.

True. Then again, most other review sites are only worth reading in order to gauge their inadequacy.


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 Post subject: Re: be quiet! Dark Rock 2 Tower Heatsink
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
DAve_M wrote:
Seriously, "this cooler needs you to be very close to it to be able to hear it at all and I mean like your whole head in the case close"... Wow, such detailed and well written review.

They think it's important enough to talk about how "The cooler ships with a protective cover on the core" (the core??), but they don't think it necessary to mention the quality of the base... "This is not a direct contact base, but there are six thick heatpipes running into the block on either side, leading into the racks of aluminum fins." You don't say!

When they get to the testing, they only seem to compare the HSF to 2 others! And even in the conclusion they criticise the retail price. Oh and take a look at their application of thermal paste. *facepalm*
:lol:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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