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 Post subject: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:52 pm 
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http://www.silentpcreview.com/Quiet_ATX ... R5_Version -- This is a refresh of last week's Quiet ATX Gaming build guide, with the new Fractal Design Define R5 in place of the R4.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Thanks for the review, the R5 is definitely a winner.

There's a typo in the second paragraph:
Quote:
In the middle of our work on that system, we took delivery of a sample of the new Fractal Design Define R5, the next generation of the R4 which will be in the stores in December. A 10-minute examination was enough to convince us: It is a better case than the R5.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Great to see the incremental improvements on a really nice case. Even has fans that don't need to be replaced :D

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Thanks Mike for the review, really like the following

Quote:
Now this is a gaming system we can definitely live with!
Damn, you making have second thoughs.... R5 or FT05... ill wait for the SLI setup review =)

One thing that saddens me, is the Antec True Quiet 140s getting discontinued, imo they are among the best for quiet computing and specially for the price, really tough to beat.

Btw mike did you find any coil whine on the Asus GTX980 STRIX?

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Abula wrote:
Thanks Mike for the review, really like the following

Quote:
Now this is a gaming system we can definitely live with!
Damn, you making have second thoughs.... R5 or FT05... ill wait for the SLI setup review =)

One thing that saddens me, is the Antec True Quiet 140s getting discontinued, imo they are among the best for quiet computing and specially for the price, really tough to beat.

Btw mike did you find any coil whine on the Asus GTX980 STRIX?

FT05 SLI -- we want to build a quiet dual-card modern gamer in this case but we're not having any luck getting hold of 2 quiet GTX970s or similar. We have a couple Zotac plain jane 970s but the cooler just isn't good enough to keep its fans from automatically ramping up when the GPU hits 90C, and it's hard to keep it below 90C without a fair bit of airflow, which means the baseline case fan noise is way over 20 dBA. Still on the hunt for appropriate components for the review. Meanwhile, case reviews take so much time that they're on hold right now, as the gaming build guides get more attention --- and they're more interesting for us, too.

Didn't know that about the TQ140s. I'll have to hoard what I have left!

No audible electronic whine in our Strix 980 -- and I've been working right next to it for a couple weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:00 pm 
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Thanks for the review :)

Page 4 of 5:
Quote:
The first trial was with one of the fans from the R4 mounted on the floor vent directly below the VGA card, to blow fresh air up to it. The fan speed was kept at the same 500 RPM as the other two fans. The result was puzzling: There was perhaps a half dBA rise in noise at idle and no change at maximum load, and only a tiny reduction in GPU and PCH temperature, just a couple degrees,
I'm trying to understand the bolded parts. If it was only a couple degrees with the R4 fan bottom mounted, why does the GPU Temp under the 3 case fan scenario (middle column) indicate 81°C vs 87°C with 2 fans? I think 6°C is a nice improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:13 pm 
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yakuman wrote:
Thanks for the review :)

Page 4 of 5:
Quote:
The first trial was.....
I'm trying to understand the bolded parts. If it was only a couple degrees with the R4 fan bottom mounted, why does the GPU Temp under the 3 case fan scenario (middle column) indicate 81°C vs 87°C with 2 fans? I think 6°C is a nice improvement.

There were 2 tries, the second with the extra fan in front. That's what gave the improved temps -- and allowed a slightly slower GPU fan speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:44 am 
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MikeC wrote:
There were 2 tries, the second with the extra fan in front. That's what gave the improved temps -- and allowed a slightly slower GPU fan speed.

You know what might be good in a silent gaming rig: a Cryorig R1 Ultimate. If only we had a SPCR review of this 8)
Hurry MikeC, c'mon :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:58 am 
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Mike,
Would you mind checking the minimum fan % (or RPM) in DC mode in BIOS on one of the CHA fan headers on the Asus Z97-Pro?
I'm planning to use the TQ140 in my build so if possible please use that fan for the test.
Thanks.

Great review by the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:03 am 
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Mrc112 wrote:
MikeC wrote:
There were 2 tries, the second with the extra fan in front. That's what gave the improved temps -- and allowed a slightly slower GPU fan speed.

You know what might be good in a silent gaming rig: a Cryorig R1 Ultimate. If only we had a SPCR review of this 8)
Hurry MikeC, c'mon :mrgreen:

It's coming soon, all the testing has been done for both Ultimate and Universal -- but cooling the CPU is hardly ever the problem if you have a biggish case. The graphics card is always the bigger challenge.

sn1009 -- It hardly matters. The TQ140 is equipped with a 500/800rpm switch. Put it on the low speed and you'll never hear it. But check our 2nd 140mm fan roundup for details of the TQ140; it should all be there. http://www.silentpcreview.com/140mm_Fan_Roundup2

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:10 am 
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Great article, Mike! It has convinced me even more to sell my R4 and pick up a R5.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:25 am 
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Great article! SPCR is one of the few serious hardware sites I still trust.

MikeC wrote:
We have a couple Zotac plain jane 970s but the cooler just isn't good enough to keep its fans from automatically ramping up when the GPU hits 90C, and it's hard to keep it below 90C without a fair bit of airflow, which means the baseline case fan noise is way over 20 dBA.


What about the Asus Strix and/or MSI Gaming OC? I just got the later and it's amazing how it stays cool inside my Solo II at idle (less than 20C delta) with the fans turned off.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:58 am 
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Xyvotha wrote:
What about the Asus Strix and/or MSI Gaming OC? I just got the later and it's amazing how it stays cool inside my Solo II at idle (less than 20C delta) with the fans turned off.

SPCR is not on either brand's top reviewer list -- we don't have enough gaming traffic for that -- and virtually no reviewers on the 2nd tier have had much luck getting 970 samples because market demand is high and chip supply from nVidia is apparently low.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:28 am 
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Thanks for your review !
Indeed this is much reflecting system I had in my mind :D

As part time owner of STIX 970 I can say it is subject to an outstanding noise as well as other 970 Cards.
Here is my sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMXotF33mU

Returned it waiting for an exchange with fingers crossed.

Can I also ask if sometime later we can hope to see beQuiet Silent Base 800 review ?


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:53 am 
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Sader wrote:
As part time owner of STIX 970 I can say it is subject to an outstanding noise as well as other 970 Cards.
Here is my sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMXotF33mU

Returned it waiting for an exchange with fingers crossed.

I've had buzzing components before, but that is so piercing it physically hurts. Even if it was muffled by a case, which it apparently was not, it might bounce back at you via a wall or the floor (I'm looking at you, RMA'd S12II). Hope you get a proper one in return.

Your video description reminded me of the countless times vertical synchronization was suggested as a fix for high-FPS whine: it is not a fix, it's a handicap. Who would buy a GTX 970 to play at a 60 FPS maximum (and at 120 Hz you're stuck with buzz and whine again). This is a defect, not a feature. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:51 am 
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Sader wrote:
Can I also ask if sometime later we can hope to see beQuiet Silent Base 800 review ?

A sample is supposedly coming our way soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:38 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
FT05 SLI -- we want to build a quiet dual-card modern gamer in this case but we're not having any luck getting hold of 2 quiet GTX970s or similar. We have a couple Zotac plain jane 970s but the cooler just isn't good enough to keep its fans from automatically ramping up when the GPU hits 90C, and it's hard to keep it below 90C without a fair bit of airflow, which means the baseline case fan noise is way over 20 dBA. Still on the hunt for appropriate components for the review. Meanwhile, case reviews take so much time that they're on hold right now, as the gaming build guides get more attention --- and they're more interesting for us, too.


MikeC, how would the hardware of this article work inside a FT05 instead of the Define R5? I don't need any optical or 3.5" drives at all and am trying to choose between those for a 980 strix build.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:42 pm 
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lm wrote:
MikeC, how would the hardware of this article work inside a FT05 instead of the Define R5? I don't need any optical or 3.5" drives at all and am trying to choose between those for a 980 strix build.

I think it would work great, maybe let the GTX run cooler -- depending on speed of bottom fans. The R5 might have a very slight advantage in that it blocks noise a bit better simply because the top is closed and it has damping on 3 sides. ymmv, there's so much in the details.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:52 pm 
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lm wrote:
how would the hardware of this article work inside a FT05 instead of the Define R5? I don't need any optical or 3.5" drives at all and am trying to choose between those for a 980 strix build.
The FT05 should win in cooling, but at the same time the AP181 are not a bad fan but to get it to quiet levels, you have to undervolt it below 500rpms, more so around 400rpms (and not all ap181 drop there), but probably on the FT05 might be less noticeble compared to what i experience on the TJ08-E. Now if you have lots of money to throw it at, you can get AP182 that can be undervolted to 200rpms or so, but these are $30-45 fans.... kinda would tripple the price of the R5. Personally i think the R5 with 3 fans on front and 1 on the back should have sufficient cooling for a high end gpu, where it might struggle is a SLI setup.... this is where i think the ft05 might be worth its premium price and trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Fractal Design has another winner here.

How well do the stock rubber grommets on the drive caddies handle HDD vibration noise?

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:56 pm 
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Zenphic wrote:
Fractal Design has another winner here.

How well do the stock rubber grommets on the drive caddies handle HDD vibration noise?

Not great. They're too hard and bouncy. iirc, the best in any case were from the Antec P180 series when quite thick clear silicone rubber was used. Still too bouncy*, but they're about the best I've come across.
---------------------------
*A simple test for viscoelastic damping materials such as these is the bounce test. Drop it on a hard floor and watch what happens. If it bounces up high, the internal damping isn't very good, and its vibration damping qualities will not be great. The best will plop on the floor, a bit like a damp sponge, maybe even stick. A ball of Sorbothane (though I've never seen it in a ball form) might bounce a bit; this is great stuff for vibration damping. Search the forums for Sorbothane or Ultra-Soft Polyurethane & you'll find posts from years ago by one of SPCR's important early contributors, who goes by the handle of Ralf Hutter, about getting 3/8~1/2" thick sheets of the stuff from McMaster-Carr for HDD damping. He generously sent me some and I still have a few square inches left. I last used a few 1cm square pieces under my PVR, which has a noisy high vibration HDD. Didn't want to rip into it & void the warranty. It worked like a charm, the PVR is generally inaudible now.

Blu-tac also has great damping qualities, though it might be harder to use in this kind of application.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:43 am 
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In defense of harder grommets: they don't bleed as much if at all and won't squeeze out.

The P180's grommets were a messy bunch and made me nervous as they slipped (lost shape) even with minimal tightening applied. Seemed to be a feature of the material and not a defect. The Define Mini's grommets at least work well enough with acoustically benign drives: I've sampled a WD Blue AAKS, Green EARS and Red EFRX in my Define Mini, and the first two also in my former P180. The only difference I discovered was the louder seeks of the AAKS, but that was more than likely down to it not being isolated in a separate chamber anymore - with a smaller case, all sounds have become more immediate in nature.

With just the Green in the Mini, I can't hear anything, and there definitely is no amplification or hum from resonance (the main reason for decoupling, I would think).

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:36 am 
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Xyvotha wrote:
I just got the later (MSI GTX970 Gaming 4G) and it's amazing how it stays cool inside my Solo II at idle (less than 20C delta) with the fans turned off.


Just rounding up the statement (for anyone considering these cards), while gaming temp goes around 50C delta and fans get pretty loud (no precise measures here, but it's definitely louder than my old Gigabyte GTX680 Windforce). I'm sure it would do better if I increase case airflow as the Solo II is somewhat restrictive, oh well...


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:02 am 
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Xyvotha wrote:
Xyvotha wrote:
I just got the later (MSI GTX970 Gaming 4G) and it's amazing how it stays cool inside my Solo II at idle (less than 20C delta) with the fans turned off.

Just rounding up the statement (for anyone considering these cards), while gaming temp goes around 50C delta and fans get pretty loud (no precise measures here, but it's definitely louder than my old Gigabyte GTX680 Windforce). I'm sure it would do better if I increase case airflow as the Solo II is somewhat restrictive, oh well...
Did you try creating a custom fan behavior profile? Is that possible w/ MSI control apps? If no, you can always try loading the Asus GPU Tweak -- it works on a non-ASUS 970 for us here in the lab. I think most or all of these 970/980 cards have a built-in safety feature of the fans going to 100% when 90C GPU temp is exceeded. You need to tweak fan speed & case airflow/temp to keep it under 90C. The usual balancing act for optimal quiet/cooling.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:10 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Did you try creating a custom fan behavior profile? Is that possible w/ MSI control apps? If no, you can always try loading the Asus GPU Tweak -- it works on a non-ASUS 970 for us here in the lab. I think most or all of these 970/980 cards have a built-in safety feature of the fans going to 100% when 90C GPU temp is exceeded. You need to tweak fan speed & case airflow/temp to keep it under 90C. The usual balancing act for optimal quiet/cooling.


I'm using the default profile, it tops at 73C with fans at around 1400RPM. I guess I got spoiled by Windforce's sound profile :)
Thanks for the advice! I think I'll work in case airflow first :)


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:58 pm 
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Any word on if the R5 changes are going to be brought to an equivalent refresh of the Mini?


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:07 pm 
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Nice Marmot wrote:
Any word on if the R5 changes are going to be brought to an equivalent refresh of the Mini?

No such word from Fractal at this point, but keep making noise, they do seem quite responsive to consumer opinion/suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet ATX Gamer, R5 Version
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:00 am 
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Nice Marmot wrote:
Any word on if the R5 changes are going to be brought to an equivalent refresh of the Mini?

I was going to ask the exact same question, in almost the exact same way.


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