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 Post subject: dasman's take on the PSU duct
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:01 pm 
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This project started after an email conversation w/ MikeC when I bought a modded Seasonic PSU from him (great PSU, btw). This system is going into a sunroom and I was concerned about the PSU fan reving up, Mike suggested (of course :wink:) a PSU duct and pointed me to numerous threads here on the subject.

Not wanting to use up a drive bay, I was going to go out the top of the box, but ARM beat me to the punch 8). After reading Bluefront's comment on what would happen if the holes got covered up, I started thinking about going out the side -- not the door, but through the mobo tray. Going through the door would end up with a flimsy duct that would be hard to stabilize -- going through the other side let me attach to the mobo tray and keep everything in place.

Here's the finished product (apologize for the photos, they were taken with our office's poor excuse for a digital camera).

Image
The duct was constructed out of cut up aluminum dryer vent that was pop-rivetd together and sealed with aluminum duct tape.

Here it is close up:
Image

And the backside:
Image

Close up:
Image

Here it is with the door on:
Image

And finally, the hole pattern:
Image

So far, the PSU never revs up above 1000rpm (modded with a panaflo M1A) unless I put the intake side of the duct too close to a wall (I need it about 6" away). It's only gotten up to about 75F in the room so far, it will be interesting to see how it holds up to summer heat (90+ on hot days).

Currently, the only fans are a Papst 4412F/2GL running at about 9v (and a Papst 8412N/2GL (12v) on an SP94. Case temps in the low 30's and CPU in the low 50's at load (F@H). The only intake is through the front fan vent (and PSU duct), everything else is taped up.

As for the rest of the system specs:
3700BQE modded with side panel PSU duct
Seasonic Super Silencer 300 w/ M1BX
Acoustipack all around
Papst 4412F/2GL rear @ 1200rpm (my fan journey, here)
Asus P4T533-c w/ P4 3.06 GHz
Thermalright SP94 w/ Papst 8412N/2GL @ 1450rpm
ATI AIW 8500 w/ Zalman ZM-NB32J heatsink
SB Audigy2 ZS soundcard
Promise Fastrak100 TX4
(4) 120GB Seagate 7200.7 as (2) RAID 0
TDK DVD burner
Floppy

I'm a little concerned about the HD's in this new case -- especially since the promise card won't allow me to monitor drive temps. I'm probably going put together a server out of old parts and put the RAID in it -- down in the basement where it is cooler. Then I think an SP80 in the BQE as the boot drive (on sorobothane -- didn't bother with the 7200.7's since they're moving anyway...).

All in all, the case is quiet -- a marked improvement over the 2600AMB that I had everything in. After I switch the drives, and get through some summer, I might add a front fan (but I don't want too).

Dave

EDIT to get the links working :oops:
EDIT added link to fan thread
EDIT added HD brand


Last edited by dasman on Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:42 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:06 pm 
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No pics Dave :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:13 pm 
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Rusty075 wrote:
No pics Dave :cry:



I know, I know -- I'm working on it :oops: :oops: :oops:


Dave


EDIT never realized the link to the pics would be case sensitive...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:48 pm 
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gotta love UnIx. Because, you know, computers aren't already annoying enough.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:06 pm 
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wumpus wrote:
gotta love UnIx. Because, you know, computers aren't already annoying enough.

Hey, watch it!!!! Would you want your team to lose someone who is folding for you under Linux? :o


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:18 am 
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Interesting setup.....but I would worry about over-heating the hard drives in that configuration.. Without the PSU helping with the exhaust duties, I bet you lost 25% of the airflow over the drives.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:57 am 
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Nice job with the duct. What did you punch that hole pattern with?

Very nice cablgami job too! A very clean setup, too bad about the WD drives. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:27 am 
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Blue,

I too am worried about the HD's -- that's why they will be leaving the case to be replaced by a single drive. This solution is only going to be in the case for about 2-3 more weeks (it's snowing right now, so I don't have to worry about the heat quite yet).

I'm also considering a bottom intake duct and putting the HD down there (ala the cookie jar). Haven't quite gotten that put together in my mind yet.


Ralf,

Did the hole pattern with a drill press -- drew the pattern in CAD, taped it where I wanted it to go and then slowly drilled the holes out. Cleaned it up with a wire brush and did a poor job repainting that area. When I find time, I'm going to try and match the paint a little closer.

WRT the WD drives -- I couldn't get rid of them fast enough. I've got them in a couple of systems at the office and have had complaints so I may just ditch them

Getting cablgami props from you is like a 4th grade art student getting a "good job" from Michelangelo 8) 8) Thanks :D


Dave


EDIT Ralf, those are Seagate's I've got now, I had WDs, but that was before I ever came to SPCR...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:09 am 
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Sweet project dasman. I like your idea much better than running a duct from a drive bay. I'm filing this one under the Use Next Time ideas.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:43 am 
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Mighty pretty is what I say! So nice and shiny too. (or was that just the camera?) And a great job of cabling too!

Good job! :D

But I just have a few comments on the subject of "cablegami". I realize that everything is always posed for the camera, but most of the pics I've seen here 'usually' have a few things in common: Only one HD, only one optical drive, and little or nothing in the PCI slots. (At least dasman left his audio card in place!)

IE: Most everything is taken out that would require connections or PS cabling. What are these computers used for? Bookends or showpeices? Or do they just stick all the extra drives and boards back in after the picture is taken? :shock: Serious!

Back to dasman's HDs. I thought that the reason for the drive tray orientation was to provide easier access? The way he has the HDs mounted backwards one has to virtually dismantle the case to access any of the cabling.

As I said before: great job of cabling, but isn't "cablegami" just a little too much of "the glorification of art over the sacrifice of function"?

I'm not ragging on dasman, just tossing in my 2 cents worth of general observations. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:04 pm 
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Loren, his machine has a video card, sound card, RAID controller, floppy, DVD, and 4 HDD's in it in those pics.

What "extra drives and boards" do you think he took out!?!

I don't see any sacficie of function there.

I think it's beautiful work; not only does it improve airflow, but it actually makes a machine easier to work on.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:38 pm 
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As Russ stated -- everything that normally resides in the system is in the picture -- video, sound, raid -- that's it for the slots. As for the drive bays, 4HDs, floppy and DVD burner. Nothing was taken out.

As for access to the cables -- both side doors on the BQE are operable (that's why I picked it over the 3700amb) -- the cables are all easily accessible. Running the cables to the back side is a much better solution IMO -- running to the front side puts them in the way of mobo connectors, PCI slots, airflow, etc. Running to the back keeps access to the mobo completely open.

BTW, the only "posing" that was done was taking the system out from under the desk (which meant I disconnected all of the external cables) and taking the doors off. I took the pictures, slapped the doors back on and put the system back under the desk, reconnected the externals and powered back up.

Dave


PS My external cables go behind my desk as well, I like them out of the way even if it means I have to crawl under the desk to reconnect :wink:


Last edited by dasman on Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:40 pm 
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Douglas Bailey wrote:
Sweet project dasman. I like your idea much better than running a duct from a drive bay. I'm filing this one under the Use Next Time ideas.


Thanks, I think I'm gonna spray the inside of the duct black though -- I don't like the way it shines through the holes (not that I travel under my desk to see it all that often though). :roll:

Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:15 pm 
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Russ

As I stated: "general. Nothing in particular was aimed at Dave or anyone else. Sorry if you took it that way. I strongly disagree with you on "it actually makes a machine easier to work on". But that doesn't mean your wrong or I'm wrong. Freedom of opinion is still a basic right, isnt it???

Maybe it is just because I have an old out-dated dino of a motherboard, but I have all my IDE (2 HD, 2optical) slots in use and all but two of my AGP/PCI (sound card, modem, sound card, fire-wire) slots taken and they are blocked by additional USB2 extentions (ie: every external slot on the case is in use). And since I have the Audigy platnium, that also puts 2 extra ribbon cables and several extra cables. I need the 2 optical drives so I can copy CDs. What it all boils down to is that there is no way in holy heaven that I could even consider hiding all those cables! I keep those multitude of cables of mine neatly zip-tied though. That was the point I was trying to make! I would even consider installing my HDs that way also IF they made cases a couple of inches wider and had easily removable side panels on BOTH sides. But since they don't, I won't.

Yes, I consider a system running "Only one HD, only one optical drive, and little or nothing in the PCI slots" to be a stripped-down, bare-bones system! That is like the "Gateway Special" before you do all the add-ons for big bucks! One man's opinion!

(PS: Dave, once again I love your work. Very nice!) others please notice

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Loren,

I didn't take your statements to be directed personally at me, I was just trying to make the point that this is not a stripped system in any way and everything can be hidden -- it took me about 30-45 minutes to build the system -- starting with an empty box (not included the duct, of course).

The only difference between the system you describe and mine is that you have a second optical drive, 1 more ribbon cable and a modem. (I had a 2nd optical, but pulled it since I didn't use it that much -- I now use an low profile external USB 2.0 CDRW as my second one - don't have to go under the desk to play a CD :wink: )

I didn't go for the platinum version of the audigy because, again, I don't plan on travelling under the desk to get at connections. I have my AIW brick sitting next to my monitor in case I need to plug something in (RCA in/out, S-vid & firewire) or a USB 2.0 hub on the other side of my monitor.

As for cables in the computer -- they might be hard to see, but there are:
(4) 24" long 80pin ATA cables -- one for each HD
(1) 18" long 40pin IDE cable to the DVD burner
(1) 12" floppy
(2) audio cables (a 2 and 4 pin) from the DVD burner to the sound card
(1) audio cable from the AIW to the sound card
plus all the normal power cables, fan cables, LED cables, etc.

I do have 1 USB 1.1 header on the mobo that isn't connected, but I don't need 2 more ports (I've got 4 USB 2 ports and 2 USB 1.1 ports -- with a total of 4 usb hubs). That's pretty much it, everything else is wired up and ready to go.

I will agree on one thing though, I'd never take the trouble to run the ATA cables to the back side if the other door wasn't removable -- that would be too much of a PITA for me. But again, that's why I went with the BQE over the AMB.

As for a 1HD, 1 optical, AGP slot only system being stripped down/barebones -- I could go that way now and loose little functionality. My mobo has built-in audio, lan, USB, USB2 and firewire. I'd lose a little sound quality and the RAID -- not really all that big a deal considering the size of HD's these days.

Dave

PS -- this pics I love are the ones in the gallery are the couple that don't have a fan installed on the HS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:55 pm 
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Loren

If you weren't talking about "Dave or anyone else", what were you talking about when you said, "most of the pics I've seen here"? If you mis-spoke and are backpedaling, I understand, we all say stupid things now and then. (certainly I couldn't be the one to cast that first stone :wink: ) Without the visible cable clutter it does sometimes appear that cases like Ralf's or Dave's are not fully assembled, even when they are. I still have no idea how Ralf routes some of his cables. My theory: he cuts the connectors off and hot-glue's them back together when he's done. (hey, never said it was a good theory)


I'm not so sure that having fewer occupied PCI slots makes much of a difference, since most components that have gone "on-board" didn't require separate cabling for their cards anyway.

Mostly cablegami comes down to being organized, and thinking ahead. But once you have the cables in place the first time, swapping out things like HSF's, PCI cards and HDD's is easier. Take Dave's HDD's for example: once he pulls the drive out, the molex and IDE cable are waiting right there for when he puts it back in. And if he wanted to swap the fan on his heatsink, he doesn't have to wiggle his way through a wire spaghetti to get to it.

A little more time at the beginning, but its returned in the form of lower temps, and less noise.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:05 pm 
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thanks for the excellent description Dave! I missed the seeing of the audio cables! (and I did look) :oops: Really good hiding job! :)

The Antec P160 case has less than 1/3" clearance in back of the HD bays after the HD is in place. Not enough to be able to attach the power plugs or round IDE cables. Even a flat IDE cable is iffy! :cry: Is there a particular reason you didn't use a round cable from the floppy? Other than having everything be the same?

The USB2 ports are probably a bit of overkill on my part but this MB (MSI K7T266-Pro2RU) doesn't have it built into the rear panel. Much less lan and firewire! :lol: And Platnium is a nice bonus, also (too bad one can't get round cables to connect it to the front I/O). I know that is time for me to get a new MB and get into the 21st century :wink: . And I have to admit I am a chronic toy collector! I also have an external CDRW since I ran out of IDE!

ps: the last time I back-pedaled was on a tricycle in 1958 :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 6:06 pm 
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Loren,

I used a ribbon for the floppy because you can hide ribbons (and get them out of the way) and you can't really hide round cables easily.

Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:04 pm 
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Loren:

Re:P160

I had no serious problems mounting HDDs using rounded cables in my P160. True, it is a little bit finicky, but I found that by inserting the lower drive part way in, then connecting cables, followed by top drive using same technique, then push trays fully in to lock, worked.

Pics

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ahrbru ... .dir=/5e37


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:41 am 
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loren_brothers wrote:
The Antec P160 case has less than 1/3" clearance in back of the HD bays after the HD is in place. Not enough to be able to attach the power plugs or round IDE cables. Even a flat IDE cable is iffy!


Here's a little pic of the P160 that I built for the review. I had no trouble attaching the power and IDE cables to the HDD by accessing them from the right side of the case. It is tight, but it's not too big of a deal.

All wiring in that case is in place and fully functional, including all the wiring from the front I/O panel. That system includes an HFF, FDD and CDrw drive.There's no PCI cards 'cause everything I need is onboard (LAN, USB, etc), and I run an external D/A converter for my sound.

If you look in the General Gallery, and in the case reviews sections, you'll see some of the systems I've put together. All are fully functional with HDD, FDD and optical drives, as well as USB, Fireiwre and NICs. I don't design these as "stripped down" systems that look good. I have no big secret, but as Russ noted "Mostly cablegami comes down to being organized, and thinking ahead" and he's exactly right. That's all I really do, plan ahead. Practice certainly helps too.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:54 pm 
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Ralf and Ahrbruz.

Thanks for the input. The 1st and 4th bays are backed by a support strut which restricts the rear depth and unfortunately that is where I measured with my trusty little plastic ruler. The 2nd and 3rd bays have more depth without the struts interferring. Also by looking at Ahrbruz's pics itseems that the drives are displaced more to the front when reversed.

Well... I'll be darned! :lol: But the proof is in the pudding! Thanks.

When I get the new MB I will try that out and see if I can do that with the SATA cables. :) I still wish I had a couple of extra inches tho. Is there some sort of industry standard for that or do the manufacturers just make them as skinny as possible?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:05 am 
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Hey, I was watching this thread because I freaking LOVE that PSU duct and I am planning on copying it...

And I have a few questions

About the duct, what is a dryer vent? And what did you pop rivet?

Are you worried about dust getting into the PSU? Seems like that would be DISASTROUS.

And about your SP-94, it's mounted to the side, which thermalright says is a big nono. Just wondering if you knew that and decided to go your own way?

And about your cablegami, did you route those bottome IDE cables underneath the bare motherboard?? Because thats what it looks like!

Thanks, and a GREAT JOB!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:25 pm 
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ONEshot,

Thanks -- dryer vent is aluminum ducting that snaps together to form a 4" diameter pipe about 3' long. You attach a bunch together to vent a clothes dryer out of the house. I took one section and cut it up into the pieces I needed to form the PSU duct. You can get dryer vent in Lowes, Home Depot, etc for a couple bucks a section (you only need one).

As for the pop riviting, that's what I did to put the pieces together than I cut out of the dryer vent -- then I sealed everything with aluminum tape (also a Lowes/Home Depot item -- in the HVAC section).

Dust, not really since the box is in a sunroom with tile floors -- if I had carpeting or indoor pets then maybe a little bit. But the intake is rather high on the box, unlike the case it self which is right down in front next to the floor.

For the SP-94, actually in the docuts that come with it, that is listed as acceptable. Pipes up is the best, followed by pipes on the side. Big no-no is pipes down. Realize that your mounting orientation is forced on you by the motherboard (since the HSF bracket is a rectangle). Some mobo's will do up/down while others will be side to side.

Cablegami -- the (4) 24" IDE cables run from the RAID card in slot 1, under the board and over to the drives. I've since moved the RAID into a basement server (since the sunroom gets kinda hot in the summer, I was worried about the drives since the RAID card won't monitor temps). The box now has a Samsung Spinpoint in it along with JosephClemente's excellent CPU duct.

I was going to due a filtered intake duct on the bottom (ala Bluefront's cookie jar), but so far the Samsung runs pretty cool (<40c has been the max so far), so I'm only going to bother if I get hotter.

Dave


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:38 pm 
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Excellent work, it was something I was thinking of doing myself, until I got a new PSU with bottom mounted 120mm fan! :oops:

One suggestion - have you thought of getting out the dremel and opening up the front vents in the PSU a bit (the end connected to the duct)? The slots look rather restrictive to airflow, especially considering your nicely drilled out side vent. And maybe putting a wire grill in if you are worried about exposing the live components to errant fingers!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:41 am 
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I tried to match the area of opening between the slots and the holes as close as possible -- the slots have a little more area but I figure that the holese are less restrictive from a turbulence standpoint

I really haven't thought about dremeling out the slots and probably won't unless the fan starts to rev up due to the summer heat. So far, at about 85F ambient, the fan runs at about 1050 rpm, so I probably won't need to play with the dremel...

Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:49 pm 
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ACK!!! THE PICTURES ARE BROKE!!! FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:06 pm 
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Acckk! You're right -- changed ISP's and forgot about the pics. I'm not even sure if I still have them, I'll have to do some looking...


Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:35 pm 
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??? Anything?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:47 pm 
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ONEshot wrote:
??? Anything?


ONEshot -- found the pics (finally), cleaned them up and relinked.


Dave


PS At some point, I need to update this thread since the system has changed pretty dramatically


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