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Ralf Hutter's P4C Quiet Rig
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6127
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Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:47 am ]
Post subject: 

engseng wrote:
Ralf, about the way you mount 92mm Panaflo fan, from the picture it certainly looks like its sucking rather than blowing.


Sigh....

Don't you remember asking me that question about 3 weeks ago in this very same thread!!

My answer, as it was 3 weeks ago, is that no, I didn't put my fan on backwards, it's facing in the conventional "blowing down on the heatsink" direction.

Author:  engseng [ Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

Relax, Ralf, take a deep breath. :lol:

Yes, I do remember asking you this. I was replying to your answer. Maybe I should rephrase my answers better next time...

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:10 am ]
Post subject: 

engseng wrote:
Relax, Ralf, take a deep breath. :lol:

Yes, I do remember asking you this. I was replying to your answer. Maybe I should rephrase my answers better next time...


I picture's worth a thousand words:
Here's a pic of the 92mm L1BX that's the subject of your question. Note the arrow on the top of the casing that shows the airflow direction. Note that you can see the gray and black Panaflo label on the side that the air is blowing towards:
Image


Here's a pic of the label side of the fan. The air is blowing towards you in this picture:
Image


Here's a pic of the other side of the same fan. The air is blowing away from you in this pic:
Image


Now here's a pic of the fan mounted on the heatsink in the case. Note that the fan is mounted so that the air is blowing away from the viewer and towards the CPU:
Image

Author:  engseng [ Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the info and the excellent pictures, Ralf! The other day I was reading about people who placed their fans so that it sucked, they claimed it actually lower their temperatures even more. And when I saw your pictures, I thought you were doing the same.

Author:  Trip [ Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ralf, one question - do you think much noise is created from the 92mm L1BX vibrating on the heatsink? Ie. a 80mm w/a silicone grommet could be one solution.

oh, and I've got to add this: if you reversed the CPU fan, the fan would not cool as well, but would no longer fight the exhaust fan for air. As a result, the exhaust fan would be quieter, but the CPU fan would have to be run slightly faster and the new system would be noisier overall, correct?

I had to ask after Bluefront made this comment using your setup as an example :lol: . Of course, y'all may be in agreement, only you prefer KISS.

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 

Trip wrote:
Ralf, one question - do you think much noise is created from the 92mm L1BX vibrating on the heatsink? Ie. a 80mm w/a silicone grommet could be one solution.


I put some silicon strips under my L1BX to see if that would help quiet things down at all and could hear absolutely no difference.

Trip wrote:
oh, and I've got to add this: if you reversed the CPU fan, the fan would not cool as well, but would no longer fight the exhaust fan for air. As a result, the exhaust fan would be quieter, but the CPU fan would have to be run slightly faster and the new system would be noisier overall, correct?


When you reverse the CPU fan it cools like absolute shit! I've tried it. Even at 12V it's way lamer than blowing down at 5V and by then the fan is a screamer anyway. No way this is a workable solution for a Thermalright or Swiftech heatsink. I've never tried it with a Zalman 7000 because I don't know how to make the fan turn backwards. Guess I could go to the southern hemisphere and it would go backwards down there, right? ;). Something about the Coriolis Effect, IIRC? :)

Trip wrote:
I had to ask after Bluefront made this comment using your setup as an example :lol: . Of course, y'all may be in agreement, only you prefer KISS.


Unfortunately theory and reality sometimes collide. :)

In my setup, both fans are turning so darn slow that I doubt they're interfering much with each other anyway. My temps are great and my system is quiet enough for me anyway.


Check this out: Last night I went in to turn off my system off before i went to bed but I had already turned it off. This morning when I woke up I went in to turn it back on and when I bent down to push the power button I noticed the power light was on. It was already running! So last night when I though it was already turned off, it was still running but it was so damn quiet I thought it was turned off!! This is no BS! To me that's the ultimate test because I know how quiet this thing is and it still fooled me.

Author:  pangit [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:22 am ]
Post subject: 

Ralf Hutter wrote:
So last night when I though it was already turned off, it was still running but it was so damn quiet I thought it was turned off!! This is no BS! To me that's the ultimate test because I know how quiet this thing is and it still fooled me.


I suppose the spooky thing is....... who turned the computer on in the middle of the night :twisted: Oooooh!

But seriously, was there any ambient noise, or was your house and street dead silent? If so, then fantastic, I think that's a goal we can all aspire to (and anything beyond that is pointless IMHO)

Author:  Trip [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:27 am ]
Post subject: 

Ralf Hutter wrote:

I put some silicon strips under my L1BX to see if that would help quiet things down at all and could hear absolutely no difference.



I didn't think it made any difference either, but after using isolators all over my case it seems like it should. I can't feel any additional vibrations either :? .

Quote:
When you reverse the CPU fan it cools like absolute shit! I've tried it. Even at 12V it's way lamer than blowing down at 5V and by then the fan is a screamer anyway. No way this is a workable solution for a Thermalright or Swiftech heatsink.


Thanks, my system is so low power that I can tell reversing the fan is worse, but I hadn't realised it made that much of a difference.

Quote:
I've never tried it with a Zalman 7000 because I don't know how to make the fan turn backwards. Guess I could go to the southern hemisphere and it would go backwards down there, right? ;). Something about the Coriolis Effect, IIRC? :)
:lol: , y'know on a related topic I'll bet a fan turning in the same direction as that effect would turn slightly easier. I just checked my toilet flush though and we're cool, counter-clockwise, the same as the fans in front of me turn facing downwards.

Quote:


In my setup, both fans are turning so darn slow that I doubt they're interfering much with each other anyway.
that makes sense. His focus was the 120mm PSU fan and 120mm case fan competing along with the CPU fan. I'm sure there's a point where the competing really starts to make a difference. Another effect is that cold air coming in from the bottom and sides of the heatsink instead of the top that messes everything up. I knew it made a big difference, but hadn't realised it was that big.
Quote:
Check this out: Last night I went in to turn off my system off before i went to bed but I had already turned it off. This morning when I woke up I went in to turn it back on and when I bent down to push the power button I noticed the power light was on. It was already running! So last night when I though it was already turned off, it was still running but it was so damn quiet I thought it was turned off!! This is no BS! To me that's the ultimate test because I know how quiet this thing is and it still fooled me.


Haha, it's a great feeling isn't it?

How long did it take you to cut that grill out? how much skill does that require?

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:40 am ]
Post subject: 

pangit wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:
So last night when I though it was already turned off, it was still running but it was so damn quiet I thought it was turned off!! This is no BS! To me that's the ultimate test because I know how quiet this thing is and it still fooled me.


But seriously, was there any ambient noise, or was your house and street dead silent?


I don't think there was much ambient noise. It was about 9:30PM, the TV was off and nothing else was making any particular noise that I can remember. I keep my monitor turned off when I'm not using the system (I hadn't been in there for a few hours) and the power light on my 3700BQE is very dim. I guess I was sleepy enough to miss it.

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:43 am ]
Post subject: 

Trip wrote:
How long did it take you to cut that grill out? how much skill does that require?


About 20 minutes. I did it with one of those $8 "nibblers" from Compusa. I'd never done it before but it was real easy. I just followed the existing outline and went slow.

Author:  ashtray_head [ Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

Very nice case man, tidy and clean. Is it still dust free?

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:36 am ]
Post subject: 

ashtray_head wrote:
Very nice case man, tidy and clean. Is it still dust free?


Yeah. I open it up every few weeks and blow out the bit of dust that's in it.

Author:  sthayashi [ Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ralf,

One question that you might be able to answer for me (or maybe someone else can). I purchased the 120 mm version of the L1A thinking it had the same magical powers (the fan on the right in the picture on the 1st page).

Is there a noise or airflow difference between the two fans? I'm using the FAN ONLY connector on my TP-550, but when I get enough cash, I'll probably get a fan controller and a Seasonic Super Silencer.

Thanks.

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:44 am ]
Post subject: 

sthayashi wrote:
Ralf,

One question that you might be able to answer for me (or maybe someone else can). I purchased the 120 mm version of the L1A thinking it had the same magical powers (the fan on the right in the picture on the 1st page).

Is there a noise or airflow difference between the two fans? I'm using the FAN ONLY connector on my TP-550, but when I get enough cash, I'll probably get a fan controller and a Seasonic Super Silencer.

Thanks.


Yes, the OEM version (the one on the left in that picture) is definitely quieter. I tested four of these against four regular L1As at 5, 7 and 12V. It was about a toss-up at 12V but at 5 and 7 volts the OEMs are noticeably quieter. They have less "clickyness" and less air noise.

Author:  MikeK [ Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

Trip wrote:
Ralf, one question - do you think much noise is created from the 92mm L1BX vibrating on the heatsink? Ie. a 80mm w/a silicone grommet could be one solution.

oh, and I've got to add this: if you reversed the CPU fan, the fan would not cool as well, but would no longer fight the exhaust fan for air. As a result, the exhaust fan would be quieter, but the CPU fan would have to be run slightly faster and the new system would be noisier overall, correct?


Actually, won't the fans run easier like that? If they are "fighting" each other for air then that means they are in lower pressure and will run faster. It would be an easy job for a fan to spin in a vacuum. If you want to test vibrations of the fan against the heatsink you can just hold the fan with your fingers and notice any change in noise. I'm sure he already did that. Just my physics lesson for today :)

Author:  Trip [ Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

It seems to me that the lower pressure would make it difficult for the fans if high pressure was on the other side of the fans (and the direction they were blowing towards) The fan would partially be in lower pressure, but it would be "fighting" the pressure - air is struggling to fill the low pressure area.

Bluefront had a good example, take two fans blowing opposite from each other and bring them close together. They become noisier as they approach each other.

Does that makes sense or am I missing something?

You're certainly right that a fan will blow easier in a low pressure area than a high pressure area.

As for the vibrations, I COULD check that myself (and I did), but it's more reassuring to check with my prof.

Author:  Schlotkins [ Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:01 am ]
Post subject:  nibbler

Ralf-

Is this what you used to cut the case?

http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... pfp=BROWSE

Thanks,
Chris

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: nibbler

Schlotkins wrote:
Ralf-

Is this what you used to cut the case?

http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... pfp=BROWSE

Thanks,
Chris


Yes, that's the exact same one. I even bought it at CompUSSR although it was a dollar cheaper back then. :)

Author:  Schlotkins [ Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Excellent

Great, I'll pick one of those up. I'm pretty much using your setup except for a ATI 9600 non-pro and the 7000Cu CPU fan. Any idea where to get some elastomer fan mounts online? Couldn't find any at SVC... need to get some of the cable wrapping as well.

Also, I don't see this explained any where else in the thread, but how exactly did you apply rubber molding clean up edges on the cut out? Did that have any noise implications or was it just to keep things neat?

Sorry for all the questions... I can't wait to get this PC quieted down. I can hear it EASILY from over 40 feet.

Chris

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Excellent

Schlotkins wrote:
Any idea where to get some elastomer fan mounts online?


Mcmaster-Carr. See this post for part numbers and other info.

Schlotkins wrote:
need to get some of the cable wrapping as well.


SVC carries the cable wrap.

Schlotkins wrote:
Also, I don't see this explained any where else in the thread, but how exactly did you apply rubber molding clean up edges on the cut out? Did that have any noise implications or was it just to keep things neat?


I just pressed it into place. I cut it about 3/16' longer than I needed ( x=piR² :) ) and utilized the extra bit of length to sort of wedge it into position. I guess you could use a little Super Glue too, if you wanted.

Author:  HammerSandwich [ Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Excellent

Ralf Hutter wrote:
I cut it about 3/16' longer than I needed ( x=piR² :) )
Somehow, I doubt a 120mm fan hole needs 118cm² of molding. Maybe George Clinton's being a bad influence on you? Try x=piD.

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Excellent

HammerSandwich wrote:
Try x=piD.


Uhh..yeah, that's it. I was just running a test to see if anyone was paying attention. :)

Author:  Schlotkins [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  PS

Ralf-

It looks like from the pics you just mounted the PS with standard case screws. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Chris

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PS

Schlotkins wrote:
Ralf-

It looks like from the pics you just mounted the PS with standard case screws. Is that correct?

Thanks,
Chris


Yep.

Author:  Schlotkins [ Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  another question

It appears you cut between the two fan holes mounts because the original holes don't fit... is that correct? Jig saw?

Thanks again!
Chris

Author:  Gxcad [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:04 am ]
Post subject: 

I wonder if that nibbler would be able to cut 1mm thick SECC steel? (basically, thats japanese steeel used in my Lite On FS020 case). I saw this nibbler at jab-tech and considered getting it to save on shipping but I didn't, damn! now I have to pay tax when I go down to compUSSR next time.

-Ken

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: another question

Schlotkins wrote:
It appears you cut between the two fan holes mounts because the original holes don't fit... is that correct?



Yes, that's correct. The case comes with those silly plasic fan holders that mount to the case with that non-standard hole pattern. I marked where I needed to drill new holes by using a 120mm fan grill as a template.


Schlotkins wrote:
Jig saw?



Nope, the holes were drilled with a 3/16" drill.

Author:  Ralf Hutter [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:21 am ]
Post subject: 

Gxcad wrote:
I wonder if that nibbler would be able to cut 1mm thick SECC steel? (basically, thats japanese steeel used in my Lite On FS020 case). I saw this nibbler at jab-tech and considered getting it to save on shipping but I didn't, damn! now I have to pay tax when I go down to compUSSR next time.

-Ken


I don't see why it wouldn't work on a 1mm thick case, it was pretty easy to cut this .8mm case with it. It probably tells you on the package what's the maximum material thickness that you can cut with it.

Author:  DraGoNsLaYeR [ Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

lenny wrote:
OK I bought a box of 40 (there's still more). If anyone's interested, I'd be glad to sell them to you at cost + postage - I only need 5 for myself. If you live in the SF Bay Area feel free to arrange to pick it up from me.

If MikeC wants one for testing I'd be glad to donate one.

If no one takes up this offer, I guess I'll use it to cool my garage :)

I like donations too!

Author:  DraGoNsLaYeR [ Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ralf Hutter wrote:
Trip wrote:
Ralf, one question - do you think much noise is created from the 92mm L1BX vibrating on the heatsink? Ie. a 80mm w/a silicone grommet could be one solution.


I put some silicon strips under my L1BX to see if that would help quiet things down at all and could hear absolutely no difference.

Trip wrote:
oh, and I've got to add this: if you reversed the CPU fan, the fan would not cool as well, but would no longer fight the exhaust fan for air. As a result, the exhaust fan would be quieter, but the CPU fan would have to be run slightly faster and the new system would be noisier overall, correct?


When you reverse the CPU fan it cools like absolute shit! I've tried it. Even at 12V it's way lamer than blowing down at 5V and by then the fan is a screamer anyway. No way this is a workable solution for a Thermalright or Swiftech heatsink. I've never tried it with a Zalman 7000 because I don't know how to make the fan turn backwards. Guess I could go to the southern hemisphere and it would go backwards down there, right? ;). Something about the Coriolis Effect, IIRC? :)

Trip wrote:
I had to ask after Bluefront made this comment using your setup as an example :lol: . Of course, y'all may be in agreement, only you prefer KISS.


Unfortunately theory and reality sometimes collide. :)

In my setup, both fans are turning so darn slow that I doubt they're interfering much with each other anyway. My temps are great and my system is quiet enough for me anyway.


Check this out: Last night I went in to turn off my system off before i went to bed but I had already turned it off. This morning when I woke up I went in to turn it back on and when I bent down to push the power button I noticed the power light was on. It was already running! So last night when I though it was already turned off, it was still running but it was so damn quiet I thought it was turned off!! This is no BS! To me that's the ultimate test because I know how quiet this thing is and it still fooled me.

The Coriolis Effect would not change the direction of the fan. The Coriolis Effect alters the intended path of projectiles flying North and South but only for a long distance. It won't affect a paper airplane but it would affect an inter-continental missle.

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