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 Post subject: Define Mini DAW (2014 update: NH-U14S)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:55 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Hi, today I finally built my new work computer (DAW) and it's pretty amazing, so here you go.

Components:
i7 3770
P8Z77-M
32GB Corsair DDR3 XMS3 RAM
Samsung 830 120GB
Corsair Force 3 120GB
WD Scorpio Blue 500GB
Corsair HX450W with Scythe Kama PWM

Cooling:
HR-02 (passive)
Scythe Slipstream PWM (exhaust)

I'm using AI Suite (Fan Xpert+) to calibrate all the fans. Fan 2 is PWM fan in PSU, 100% controlled by motherboard. PSU doesn't get even warm under load.

Image Idle Image Full load


Image

Image

Tight fit between side panel and HR-02 :)

Image

I love this cooler!!

Image

Image

That little hard drive is spinning literally without any vibrations, so I screwed it right on HDD bay, without any rubber grommets and I have never had any problems with vibrations

I'm very happy with resaults, you can hear the hard drive spinning platters from less than 50cm from the case (QuietDrive could eliminate that), but from my working position, I can't say if this computer is running or not. And that's what was the point of the whole build.


Last edited by axee on Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:32 pm, edited 27 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 709
Location: Denmark
Very nice. Can the passive cooler cope with the CPU? And what would you say was the noisiest component?

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Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
HR-02 have no problem dealing with that CPU, fan stays at 430-ish RPM and temperatures never exceed 65°C.

Currently I have problem with hard drive, for the last few years I've been using Scythe QuietDrive and that 1TB hard drive was impossible to hear next two 400RPM slipstreams, but now I use only one 380RPM fan (at idle) and hard drive noise is just killing me. Also, anti-vibration "legs" are just too hard, so I used them from my previous case (P182) to cut down all vibrations.

But since Define Mini is such a beautiful case, I must first try to find aestheticly pleasing solution to mound my QuietDrive..

Tomorrow I will post some pics, it's really great little machine. Next to my old P182 it looks so tiny :D


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (PICS ADDED!)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:19 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 104
Location: London UK
Looks likes an interesting build - thanks for taking the time to post.
I have a similar set up in my DAW with an HR02 and exhaust fan in a P182. I have my drives ( Samsung ecogreen and Hitachi 7k1000.D) suspended and seek noise is only a minor irritation with the door closed.

Questions:
1. The scythe quiet drive is in the 5.25, could you suspend it if you remove the lower 3.5 drive cages or are you a bit tight for space?

2a. Bit OT but by DAW I'm assuming you're using it for audio recording? I've read that correctly what is your preferred audio input device - I can't work out what's in the light blue PCI slot.

2b.Have you had any latency/performance issues recording audio with the P8Z77 if you're using the PCI slot for the audio card?

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (PICS ADDED!)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
1. I could remove hard drive cages and put Quiet Drive on the floor, but I admit I like how that case looks right now.. I'm thinking of using 2,5' hard drive in 3,5' Quiet Drive, but I'm not sure yet.. Since this case is such a pleasure to work with and rig looks super cool and tidy, I might actually prefer having smaller drive in hdd cage, just because it looks good. In my previous rig in P182, QuietDrive was lying on some soft foam that did the trick.

2. I'm using it for audio recording and also electronic production. In the PCI slot, there's a Firewire card (with Texas Instruments chipset). I'm using Focusrite interface. It's using only FW400, like 99,99% of other audio interfaces, so bandwidth or latency is not an issue even on old PCI slot.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (update: PWM PSU Fan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 709
Location: Denmark
Another option, if your budget allows you to: A 2.5" inch drive in a 2.5" Scythe QuietDrive. This enclosure (which has the same dimensions as a regular 3.5" drive) can be suspended by an aftermarket suspension system sthat can be seen at the front page of this website:

http://noisemagic.de/

If you have problems understanding the language, then Google Translate is your friend.

_________________
Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (update: PWM PSU Fan)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Yup that's what I ment by QuietDrive 3,5, the size of the box is 3,5', the larger SQD is 5,25 :)

I don't know what to do next, but smal SQD in some sort of suspension system would be awesome, that would complete this silent rig..


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini passive i7 DAW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:33 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Sorry, I didn't understand your question..


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini passive i7 DAW
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:33 am
Posts: 8636
Location: Sunny SoCal
axee wrote:
Sorry, I didn't understand your question..


It means he's probably a spammer, working on getting his required minimum post count. But we're watching him!

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Main Box: Intel i3-3225, Intel DH77EB, 16GB Corsair RAM, 256GB Samsung 830, SS360GP PSU, CM PS07 case.
Music Server: Intel DH77EB + i3-3220, 2xSamsung 2TB F4, Pico PSU, Fractal Define Mini, 2xScythe Fans @250 rpm.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini passive i7 DAW
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:37 pm
Posts: 1
Looks like a nice quiet system.

axee wrote:
Image

Tight fit between side panel and HR-02 :)

Doesn't this worry you? You have to push the side panel on and then slide it into place. Doesn't that put undue stress on the cooler?


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini passive i7 DAW
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
No, not at all. Moduvent (that thing that covers fan hole) is basicly thin hard plate with VERY soft foam on it. I think that foam is unnecessary touch, I'm sure that 12x12cm soft foam in the middle of the side panel won't do any dampening.

You can put side panel on very easily, you can't even feel that foam is pressed on heatpipes. It's really that soft (and unnecessary, IMHO).



Update 1: added Slipstream on HR-02

First build had only one Slipstream exhaust fan, using AI Suite for temperature readings and fan calibration.It was fine, but under heavy load, fan was spinning too loud in hot summer days (first testing was in january).

So I added one more Slipstream on heatsink, results @ prime95 :

Image

Under typical load, fans doesn't spin faster than 400 RPM, so I am satisfied. Only really high loads push fans to audible 550 RPM.


Last edited by axee on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 1: new fans)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Update 2: 2 x Noctua NF-S12A

Unfortunately exhaust fan started rattling and ticking few days ago, so I had to buy new fan and after testing I chose replace both fans with NF-S12A:

Image

Image
(both fans on CPU fan header, AUX fan is in PSU)

I can run them at faster speeds than Slipstream without hearing them, they push more air and I have better CPU temperatures!

The difference is not in fan motor noise, but airflow turbolent "woosh", when the fan is placed next to a grill or heatsink. With Slipstreams, my limit was between 450-500 RPM, with Noctuas is between 550-600 RPM.

My PC is inaudible in my environment for the first time even during full load (prime95). Lower CPU temps are nice too :D

I'm not sure how there could be such a difference, but I'm really impressed with this fan! :mrgreen:


Last edited by axee on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE: new fans)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 5
did you think of just running everything off of an SSD, and just using external drives for after-session backups?

I haven't really seen an analysis that says putting your audio files or samples on a regualr hard drive is any better than having everything on the SDD, given the SSDs r/w speed and throughput.

See my DAW solo II build from this week. I'm using a FW400 card to a mackie onyx satellite. Still tracking down 64 bit plugins, so the software can run 64 and make use of the memory.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE: new fans)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Running everything off SSD would be very nice and speedy, but I have about 400GB of sound libraries and vst data (Spectrasonics, Native instrumets ecc for orchestral trance madness), and I currently cannot justify buying huge SSD just for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE: new fans)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Guatemala
Why did you removed the brown rubber edges? shouldnt they help with vibration on the heatsink and case?

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE: new fans)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Well, I doubt that there's any vibration produced by fans and it was almost impossible to mount fans with them and I didn't bother at all.

Well, one day after my OCD kicked in and I put those grommets back :D I almost tore the last grommet, putting last fan clip on.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE: new fans)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:25 am
Posts: 5
axee wrote:
Running everything off SSD would be very nice and speedy, but I have about 400GB of sound libraries and vst data (Spectrasonics, Native instrumets ecc for orchestral trance madness), and I currently cannot justify buying huge SSD just for that.


Ah. I am much smaller scale.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 1: new fans)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:07 am
Posts: 120
Location: Vienna - Austria
axee wrote:
Image
(both fans on CPU fan header, AUX fan is in PSU)


Hi Axee,
Are those temps at full load of your i7?

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 2: new Noctua fans)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Yes, these are full load temperatures, running prime95 for at least 30 minutes or until temperatures stabilize. Quite an improvement from Slipstream fans.

In the next month, I'm planning on adding MSI GTX 760 Twin Frozr & another NF-S12A on the bottom of the case for additional GPU cooling. I just hope the new GPU wn't be too loud at idle. Based on reviews, it should be inaudiable in idle, very quiet on load.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 2: new Noctua fans)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 1832
Location: Northern New Jersey
Will the GPU clear the CPU heatsink? Sounds like something I would do...

I like your clean build, must be a dream to work with. I just upgraded to a SSD last week, and not having a Raptor clicking away anymore is a strange new thing. No more upgrades for a while for me though...too expensive.

What audio software do you typically run?

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FartingBob wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 2: new Noctua fans)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:06 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Ableton Live for almost everything, Studio One as more traditional DAW for vocal comping, from time to time.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 2: new Noctua fans)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:36 am 
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Location: Slovenia
Update 3: 3 fans compared on HR-02

So I decided to test few fans at my disposal on the heatsink (HR-02 Macho rev.A). There are two NF-S12A on the bottom and rear position. When testing CPU temperatures, they run at fixed 400 RPM. There are no other moving parts in the system.

These are very subjective statements, since a certain fan can be louder, but less noticeable sound character can mask with ambient noise. I know tests are really not that scientific. Temperatures at the same RPM can be combined with subjective noise ratings, so everybody can draw their own conclusions.


Scyhe Slipstream PWM

Audible at: 500-550 RPM
Sound character: typical Slipstream low pitched whooshing airflow sound, not much tonality or motor noise
CPU temperature at fixed 500 RPM: 58°C

I like Slipstream fans, but I never liked how much airflow whoosh they make on low RPM.

Noctua NF-S12A PWM
audible at: 650 RPM
sound character: much less airflow noise, more mid-pitched, hardly noticeable and VERY smooth sound character, even when running on higher RPM's
prime95 CPU temperature at fixed 500 RPM: 56°C

Noctuas offer great improvement, both in terms of temperatures and noise, but with a big price tag.

Fractal Design Silent Series R2
audible at: 550-600 RPM
sound character: small amount of ticking, not audible from more than a meter, airflow noise is somewhere in between Noctua and Scythe, hard to pinpoint, low-mid pitched
prime95 CPU temperature at fixed 500 RPM: 58°C

Fractal silent series really surprised me, they can stand up to Slipstream's airflow, but with better sound quality. Unfortunately they cannot be run at ultra low speeds, so I wouldn't use them as a case fans, as the airflow noise would be much more noticeable. Slipstreams are still better sounding at high RPM's.

I want my fan control to be software independent, so I decided to run 3x NF-S12A PWM (in, heatsink, out) from one CPU fan header. PWM control can fortunately be set low enough in BIOS. Better option would be 140mm fan on heatsink, but that would block GPU.


Prime95 testing under normal room temperatures:

Image

I think cooling CPU silently won't be a problem even with high-end GPU in the system.

Next upgrade: MSI GTX 760 Twin Frozr and Corsair RM550 :D :mrgreen: :)


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 3: 3 fans compared on HR-02)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
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Location: Slovenia
I found better, more P182-like fan position. There is 1-2 mm clearance with normal fans, but NF-S12A fits perfectly with it's rubber edges.

Acoustics are much better, at the bottom there was a lot of turbolent noise, due to the fan grill.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (UPDATE 2: new Noctua fans)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 2031
Location: Guatemala
axee wrote:
Better option would be 140mm fan on heatsink, but that would block GPU.
I don't think it will block it, here is a picture of an HR02 + Noctua NF-A15 PWM given the fan is slightly (very little) wider than than the HR02, the fan is almost a perfect matach and when you are mounting it you can move it some mm to the right or left, the clips do allow it, and in my case the fan clips never even get near the gpu, so at the end if the HR02 clears to the PCIe slot a 140mm fan like TY140/141/147 or Noctua NF-A15 PWM shouldn't have any issues clearing the GPU.

Image

I have also installed a HR02 Macho on a PS07 with the PCie right next to the cpu cooler, and used the included TY141 fan 140mm (almost the same frame as the NF-A15 PWM), its very close but it still clears fine.

Image

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 4: HDD cage fan mount)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:44 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
I tried with stock fan (TR-147) and some old video card and fan sticked about 3 mm out of heatsink, preventing GPU to be installed.. it can also be seen in your first picture.

It's really a tight fit, will post some pictures when new GPU arrives.


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 5: Corsair RM650 & MSI GTX 760)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Image

I was planning on using one intake and one exhaust fan, but I had to run fans at >700RPM to cool CPU down, so I used top fan hole and rotated HR-02. Temperatures improved dramatically!

P95+furmark:

CPU 68°C (I added 15cm fan later)
GPU 81°C

Fans:
idle 300 RPM
full load 650 RPM
real world load 450-500 RPM

Full system load is 300W, so I chose RM650, total overkill, but for good reason.PSU fan doesn't spin up at all, except when testing with prime95 and Furmark, and even than, it's drowned out by GPU and case fans, so I can't tell how loud it is, but it's running very slow. VERY impressed!

GPU fan speeds at idle are too fast (1050RPM), I'm a bit disappointed. I'm surprised that TechPowerUp was so impressed with it, since it's loudest part in my system. When putting PC behind desk, HDD spinning noise becomes somewhat inaudible, but I can still hear gentle whooshing noise from GPU fans.

On full load, GPU stays surprisingly quiet at 1400RPM.


Last edited by axee on Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 5: Corsair RM650 & MSI GTX 760)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
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Location: ITALY
axee wrote:
GPU fan speeds at idle are WAY too fast (1050RPM), I'm quite disappointed.


ASUS DirectCU coolers usually run about 100rpm below that threshold: if you can still swap that card, maybe it can be worthwhile.

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 5: Corsair RM650 & MSI GTX 760)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:14 am
Posts: 10
Is there anything you can do about the idle fan speed on the GPU? Surely that rpm isn't anywhere near necessary.

Edit: Something along these lines: http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm

Nice build though btw!


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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 5: Corsair RM650 & MSI GTX 760)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:37 am 
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Posts: 3232
Location: ITALY
fuugu wrote:
Is there anything you can do about the idle fan speed on the GPU?


Almost surely, no (as it's a Kepler, Afterburner/Rivatuner can't help).

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 Post subject: Re: Define Mini DAW (Update 5: Corsair RM650 & MSI GTX 760)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Slovenia
Just to be clear, GPU is extremely quiet, it's hard to tell if it's turned on or not from 2 meters away (!!), and I understand that this means inaudible for most people. It's just that I have very quiet room/studio and I don't live in the city, so it gets VERY quiet at night when I usually work.

Fortunately, GPU fans seem to be very good sounding (no tonality), it's just air whoosh that you get. For example, it can be compared to air whoosh when you put 600 RPM Slipstream next to honeycomb fan grill. It's hard to pinpoint, but when it stops, you can definitely hear the difference.

It would be nice to put fans under 34% (limit in Afterburner, or probably in card's bios), but I won't stress about it. It's amazing how quiet this PC is!

If, however, anyone knows how to overcome 34% fan speed limit, please report!


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