It is currently Tue May 05, 2015 3:40 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
My previous PC was an i7 (3rd gen), with GTX660 and semi-passive Seasonic PSU. It was pretty good, the nvidia 660 especially was rather gentle on the ear and I was satisfied with the horse-power-per-silence ratio.

Until now :)

I was finally able to build an (almost) semi-passive rig and the first time I turned it on I couldn't understand if it was really running!

This is the build log

Image

- Case: BitFenix Phenom
- CPU: i7-4790
- RAM: 16.0GB Kingston HyperX Savage
- Motherboard: Gigabyte Z97MX-Gaming 5
- GPU: MSI GTX 970
- Storage: Samsung SSD 850 PRO 512gb
- PSU: Fractal Design Newton 3 600w
- CPU cooler: Scythe Kotetsu
- Fans: 2x Noiseblocker

I was not a big fan of the Phenom, but I got it for free so I gave it a shot. At the end it's not bad but it has its share of issues imho.

Image

The integrated fans are surprisingly not bad but I replaced them nonetheless with a pair of noiseblocker. What the case really lacks is any kind of dust filter. Fortunately I had one of those magnetic filters that I placed on the bottom of the case.

Image

The case inside is pretty spacious but cable management is a mess. You basically have no way to place some wires beneath the left side panel and all cable management happens in a small spot back to the PSU.

Image

Also the front-panel USB and power button are actually on the right-panel. That is a really bad spot imho, so I basically switched the left panel with the right panel. Fortunately that is possible even though you end up with up-side-down writings :)

Image

The kotetsu is a great cooler and it comes with a decent fan (even though I would probably switch that as well). It's not a horribly big cooler but good enough for my setup (no overclocking). I'm pretty sure I could turn off the CPU fan in idle and standard PC usage. While I'm writing this the CPU is at 26C with a 24C ambient :shock:

I believe I could add some noise dampeners to the top/left/right panels, but honestly the PC is so quiet that I don't know if I will.

Image

The FractalDesign PSU is passive up to 260-300W, which means that in my case it is completely passive.

In idle the PC draws 30-32W, in standard office/internet usage 50-55W, under full throttle the maximum I've seen is 230W. Maybe I would have liked the PSU to kick off the fan at 200-220W... just to be safe, but hey not here to ague :)

Image

There are many places where you can put the drives, but I don't like any of them. At the end I was able to screw the SSD on the bottom. That spot is not meant for 2.5" HDD but 2 over 4 screw holes line up with the fan grid... so I was able to place it there, which is a perfect spot imho.

The end result is very polished and the PC is the quietest I had to date.

The GPU is passive until you run serious games. In standard usage it stays around 38C (24C ambient). Even under heavy usage the fans are incredibly silent. I'd say that the gtx970 fans at medium speed are as noisy as the gtx660 in idle.

If you have any question don't hesitate to ask.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 2146
Location: Guatemala
Congrats on a very nice build.

Wondering more about the MSI GTX970, some users on youtube have reported a couple of issues that are not present on all cards,
1) When the fan starts one of the fans don't start and makes the other one spin at 100%, if you help the none spinning fan starts the 100% speed fan regultates to low rpms again.
2) Very few users have reported coil whining, but most don't, just wondering if you notice anything?

_________________
GameMiv2 >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Prolimatech Ultra Sleek Vortex 14 | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | 2x ASUS GTX970 STRIX | ACER B326HK 32'' 4K IPS | Samsung 840pro 512GB | WD RED 3TB | Silverstone FT05 + 2x Silverstone AP182 | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
Abula wrote:
1) When the fan starts one of the fans don't start and makes the other one spin at 100%, if you help the none spinning fan starts the 100% speed fan regultates to low rpms again.
2) Very few users have reported coil whining, but most don't, just wondering if you notice anything?


Thanks, Abula.

Re your questions:

1) The fans are indeed independent one another, but the threshold where just one of the two spins is really small: basically in "medium duty". In all the tests I've done the fans were either both on or both off. Please consider that I do not install any of the MSI software (afterburner etc...) and leave all settings to stock values.

2) No, my card is dead silent. If it weren't for the side LED (which I kinda dislike) I would have thought it was broken :) I'm pretty sure my sample comes from a second batch (not the very first when the card came out), not sure if that makes any difference. Even if those reports were true I would say it's just a matter of breaking in the GPU for a while, maybe by running the Unigine for an hour or so. But, again, personally I don't have this issue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 46
A perfect blend of power, quiet, and compact. In the future if you decide to go passive and silent all you have to give up the compact. Can you give a description of the distance away from the box to noise profile of your build?

_________________
My passive 4790K with a silent 280x build thread


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
useful_idiot wrote:
A perfect blend of power, quiet, and compact. In the future if you decide to go passive and silent all you have to give up the compact. Can you give a description of the distance away from the box to noise profile of your build?


PC is at approx 50cm (19") from the floor and 80cm (31") from my ear. All fans are set to minimum, they normally spin at 600-800rpm. The GPU is passive I'd say up to 40C (it usually stays around 34-38C). At minimum speed the chassis fans are "louder" than the GPU fans, so the GPU is not really an issue. PSU is passive up to 300w, so I will never hear it.

My previous rig was already pretty silent but I could slightly hear the GTX660. This new rig is incredibly silent, I can hear a soft "whoom" when there's very little ambient noise, such as Sunday early morning, but normally it's inaudible.

Compact cases are not that bad imho. If the case is too big you need more air pressure. If the case is too small of course air flow (and cable management) becomes a problem. This phenom is a bit at the limit of the comfort zone. Probably the Silvestone TJ08 is the best compromise. Also the CoolerMaster Silencio 352 seems fine and still quite compact.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:26 am
Posts: 63
Location: Denmark
Matt3o wrote:
The kotetsu is a great cooler and it comes with a decent fan (even though I would probably switch that as well).

I'm looking at the same cooler for my build - what's left to be desired from the fan in your opinion?

Matt3o wrote:
The FractalDesign PSU is passive up to 260-300W, which means that in my case it is completely passive.
In idle the PC draws 30-32W, in standard office/internet usage 50-55W, under full throttle the maximum I've seen is 230W. Maybe I would have liked the PSU to kick off the fan at 200-220W... just to be safe, but hey not here to ague :)

From a PSU cooling perspective your case seems to be upside down.
The way I see it, if the PSU fan was to kick in it would blow hot air downwards - this hot air would be sucked back into PSU by the PSU fan and into the case by the bottom intake fan.
So you probably ought to be happy that the PSU fan remains off.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
sn1009 wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
The kotetsu is a great cooler and it comes with a decent fan (even though I would probably switch that as well).

I'm looking at the same cooler for my build - what's left to be desired from the fan in your opinion?


In my opinion for a silent not-overclocked system the kotetsu is fantastic. In standard usage the CPU stays just few degrees over ambient temperature. I also have a prolimatech megahalems which is bigger and in standard usage doesn't perform any better.

If you need overclocking or you use the PC mainly for gaming (ie: when the PC is on the CPU is always at full power) then I'd go for the thermalright macho.

I didn't take a bigger cooler on purpose, simply because I don't feel I need it. I need a snappy PC for 3D modeling softwares and few games.

The kotetsu also looks really nice. If I have to find it a defect... maybe the fan holding clips... the fan itself is above average but not as good as a noiseblocker or an apache.

sn1009 wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
The FractalDesign PSU is passive up to 260-300W, which means that in my case it is completely passive.
In idle the PC draws 30-32W, in standard office/internet usage 50-55W, under full throttle the maximum I've seen is 230W. Maybe I would have liked the PSU to kick off the fan at 200-220W... just to be safe, but hey not here to ague :)

From a PSU cooling perspective your case seems to be upside down.
The way I see it, if the PSU fan was to kick in it would blow hot air downwards - this hot air would be sucked back into PSU by the PSU fan and into the case by the bottom intake fan.
So you probably ought to be happy that the PSU fan remains off.


Probably you are right. I'm not 100% sold about the case yet. The PSU throws a lot of heat over the GPU, I might end up trying something different.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
First of all, congrats for that very nice and clean build.


Matt3o wrote:
If you need overclocking or you use the PC mainly for gaming (ie: when the PC is on the CPU is always at full power) then I'd go for the thermalright macho.

Have you done some test about oc'ing? In case, would you mind to share (SPCR reviews said rather different things)?


Matt3o wrote:
the fan itself is above average but not as good as a noiseblocker or an apache.

The Glidestream is actually a cheap fan, but comparatively I wouldn't call the Akasa Apache as "good", at least noise-wise.


Matt3o wrote:
The PSU throws a lot of heat over the GPU

Have you done some "smoke test" with that rig? Actually it shouldn't be so.

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
quest_for_silence wrote:
First of all, congrats for that very nice and clean build.


thanks!


quest_for_silence wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
If you need overclocking or you use the PC mainly for gaming (ie: when the PC is on the CPU is always at full power) then I'd go for the thermalright macho.

Have you done some test about oc'ing? In case, would you mind to share (SPCR reviews said rather different things)?


no, I haven't experienced that myself, I'm just guessing looking at online reviews. The kotetsu received very little love from the media, due to problem in the distribution I believe. I like it a lot, it's a relatively "small" cooler which performs incredibly well.

quest_for_silence wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
the fan itself is above average but not as good as a noiseblocker or an apache.

The Glidestream is actually a cheap fan, but comparatively I wouldn't call the Akasa Apache as "good", at least noise-wise.


Like I said, the fan is decent noise-wise, but you can definitely do better.

quest_for_silence wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
The PSU throws a lot of heat over the GPU

Have you done some "smoke test" with that rig? Actually it shouldn't be so.


I ran the unigine island for about 20 minutes. The fan on the PSU doesn't start (at 220W power consumption) so the heat from the PSU goes naturally up towards the GPU.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 am
Posts: 712
Location: Germany
Matt3o wrote:
The fan on the PSU doesn't start (at 220W power consumption) so the heat from the PSU goes naturally up towards the GPU.


If you block the inner openings of the PSU, all generated heat should leave through the front mesh/fan opening and wouldn't influence case temps. Of course, blocking those openings creates the risk of some heat hotspots within the psu.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
I ran the unigine island for about 20 minutes. The fan on the PSU doesn't start (at 220W power consumption) so the heat from the PSU goes naturally up towards the GPU.

Providing the reading at the wall were reliable, you are talking of just around 15W of heat (moreover without any confirming test with smoke or similar gimmicks to visualize airflow, you can't even be sure that it will be entirely exhausted through just the slim front inlet, as it's actually impeded by the front PCB). I mean, definitely not that much heat for the GPU.

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
I'm sure it's not a big deal, but definitely not an optimized setup. The PSU seems to heat quite a bit at 200-230w (just touching it), but my tests so far are empirical. I may try a different case and see what the temperature difference would be (if any). I'll post my findings if there's interest.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
I'm sure it's not a big deal, but definitely not an optimized setup. The PSU seems to heat quite a bit at 200-230w (just touching it), but my tests so far are empirical. I may try a different case and see what the temperature difference would be (if any). I'll post my findings if there's interest.

Yes, there's definitely interest: broadly speaking, at first glance the case design doesn't seem thought for the best cooling, but the Phenom M is quite a different case with reference to the Phenom (mITX) reviewed by SPCR.

Said that, given that you're satisfied by the overall noise scenario, I don't understand your concerns about the possibility that the PSU may heat up the GPU (do you have some nasty temps?).

By the way, even without a different case in handy, a relatively quick test you might do, it's try to route the PSU outside the case, providing the cables are enough long: whether it were possible, that should mostly solve any hypothethical heating of the GPU.

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
quest_for_silence wrote:
Said that, given that you're satisfied by the overall noise scenario, I don't understand your concerns about the possibility that the PSU may heat up the GPU (do you have some nasty temps?).


just for science (and curiosity). what's wrong with that?

quest_for_silence wrote:
By the way, even without a different case in handy, a relatively quick test you might do, it's try to route the PSU outside the case, providing the cables are enough long: whether it were possible, that should mostly solve any hypothethical heating of the GPU.


I have a silverstone tj08 at hand. I'll make a test with that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
just for science (and curiosity). what's wrong with that?

I think maybe you've misunderstood the meaning of my remark: I've just pointed out that nothing in your previous posts let me think there's a possible issue with the PSU placement, so I'm wondering about something untold.

Said that, you can do anything you want just for fun, and share your findings will be always appreciated.


Matt3o wrote:
I have a silverstone tj08 at hand. I'll make a test with that.

Indeed it will be interesting, but (mostly given the massive AP181) that won't tell you that much, about whether the PSU heats up the GPU, or not.

Anyway, have a nice time!

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
there's another test I can try with the phenom. I can try to put an intake fan to the top and have some fresh air over the GPU and PSU.

The problem might be that hot air would flow down to the CPU.

I'll keep you posted, Sunday is perfect for experimenting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 46
Matt3o wrote:
I can try to put an intake fan to the top and have some fresh air over the GPU and PSU. The problem might be that hot air would flow down to the CPU.


Try this, take the bottom and side fans and position them on the top vent to exhaust the rising warm air. I too ran into these problems with my old case and solved it by switching to the Coolermaster HAF EVO. In doing so i was able to remove all my case fans, have room for my passive cpu cooler, and the large top vent provides an escape for the warm air while gaming.

_________________
My passive 4790K with a silent 280x build thread


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
there's another test I can try with the phenom. I can try to put an intake fan to the top and have some fresh air over the GPU and PSU.

Or just put the Phenom on side and see what changes (temp & noise wise).

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
useful_idiot wrote:
Matt3o wrote:
I can try to put an intake fan to the top and have some fresh air over the GPU and PSU. The problem might be that hot air would flow down to the CPU.


Try this, take the bottom and side fans and position them on the top vent to exhaust the rising warm air. I too ran into these problems with my old case and solved it by switching to the Coolermaster HAF EVO. In doing so i was able to remove all my case fans, have room for my passive cpu cooler, and the large top vent provides an escape for the warm air while gaming.


don't you create a weird air pressure between the GPU (blowing down) and the chassis fans (blowing up)?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 46
Matt3o wrote:
don't you create a weird air pressure between the GPU (blowing down) and the chassis fans (blowing up)?


Depends on the distance between the two sets of fans. I would hope that the top fans exhaust enough hot air to have new fresh air drawn in through the sides so the GPU isnt bathing itself constantly in warm which then turns to hot air because it has nowhere to go. This is just an experiment, you can always revert if the results do not improve anything.

_________________
My passive 4790K with a silent 280x build thread


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:26 am
Posts: 63
Location: Denmark
Matt3o wrote:
The PSU throws a lot of heat over the GPU, I might end up trying something different.

If you're up for modding your PSU (and ruining your warranty) I would flip the PSU fan and connect it to a fan header on the mobo or 5V from the PSU.
Run it at it's lowest possible RPM.

Or for startes, install a fan on the side of the PSU (zip-ties or tape) fan that sucks the hot air out of the PSU.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
So I tried to put one intake to the top (and remove the one on the bottom).

Image

The difference is pretty amazing. The GPU in idle went from 38C to 28C (!!!). After 20 minutes of Unigine Heaven the GPU is at 66C and the CPU at 40C (with the previous fan config was GPU 68C, CPU 40C).

It seems the CPU doesn't suffer at all of the reduced airflow from the bottom, but the GPU is clearly very happy. Unfortunately I can't say if the PSU is getting any benefit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:35 am
Posts: 34
Location: Earth
Hello! What temps are you getting with that cooler? Could you post a screenshot running Prime95 with the CPU at stock speed?
Thank you and have a nice day!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
Not sure what's the correct procedure to test with Prime95 (should I disable the fan?). I left it running for about 10 minutes, this is what I got (with fan on)

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
Not sure what's the correct procedure to test with Prime95 (should I disable the fan?). I left it running for about 10 minutes, this is what I got (with fan on)

You can't safely cool a Core i7 passively under Prime and the likes, so the fan have to stay on: however, you should finely regulate its spinning (with an appropriate software, I don't know how Gigabyte MX works in this respect) in order to obtain the best sound signature even under load, and with reference to that, ideally you should stay around 500-700rpm, to have a very quiet CPU heatsink (staying under 800-900rpm would be still acceptable for quietness obsessed people). With oc'ing, YMMV.

About Prime, either SmallFFT or LargeFFT are the options to run for a thermal test (torture), the duration should be of around the same magnitude of a real-life task (gaming, rendering, folding, whatever), if you are not testing stability you can disable error'n'rounding checks, but at any rate 10 minutes seem a bit on the lowish side in order to evaluate the overall heat build up due to CPU load.

Currently I prefer linpack to burn a CPU, Intel Burn Test v2 to load CPU and max ram, and temp checked with Real Temp, but that's just a side note.

The reported temps look pretty good for a Devil's Canyon, but without the relevant rotational speed they don't mean that much, noise-wise.

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
fans are set to "silent" via bios. I've never seen them spinning over 800RPM.

Anyway I'll run the test for a longer time. thanks for the info


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am
Posts: 22
I did the test as requested. It ran for more than 30 minutes in smallFFT mode.

This is the result (you can see both temperatures and fan speed)

Image

as you can see the smallFFT test is much more stressful than the one I ran before. The fan goes at 1000-1100RPM and it is clearly audible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Semi-passive rig
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3601
Location: ITALY
Matt3o wrote:
as you can see the smallFFT test is much more stressful than the one I ran before. The fan goes at 1000-1100RPM and it is clearly audible.

Indeed: I haven't any Devil's Canyon CPU so I can't compare directly, your temps would look a bit high (of course about 12-14°C higher than a short test done on a previous Core i7, as you can see there) but at first glance compatible with what's to be expected from Haswell (and more probably that not which is in part due to the Phenom M relatively low airflow).

Thanks for sharing!

_________________
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group