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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:04 pm 
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daba wrote:
I'm interested to see the back of this case. How do the rear grilles look?


You can get a peek at the back at the PCMag link. Just click on the Sonata Picture and check the case behind it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:17 pm 
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MikeC wrote:

In a nutshell, BTX is Intel's answer to the thermal problems created by their own runaway heat Prescott, and it doesn't really address adequate cooling for other components nor does it address noise well. A CPU cooling fan at the very front of the case??

We already know Prescott will not go past P4-3.8, which was released a few months ago, and new dual-core processors based on the P-M core will likely take center stage this year.

With all the innovations we're seeing in cases of late, I think ATX will be alive and kicking for a long time, and BTX adoption will be much slower than the transition from AT to ATX. Just my opin, of course...


Unfortunately intels dual core is now rumoured to be prescott based rather than P-M based. Early rumours were certain that it would be P-M based on its heat output and awesome performance. There is still a laptop P-M based dual core chip however. I hope intel goes down the tubes for this one. Prescott made me an AMD fanboy although HT is nice. In any case, ATX will be around for at least 2 years. After that, unless AMD manages a miracle with its A64 based dual core *crosses fingers* and refuses to go BTX, ATX will probably die.
EDIT : xbitlabs link added
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/pr ... -core.html
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/sh ... spx?i=2252

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Last edited by tay on Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:18 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
In a nutshell, BTX is Intel's answer to the thermal problems created by their own runaway heat Prescott, and it doesn't really address adequate cooling for other components nor does it address noise well. A CPU cooling fan at the very front of the case??

We already know Prescott will not go past P4-3.8, which was released a few months ago, and new dual-core processors based on the P-M core will likely take center stage this year.

With all the innovations we're seeing in cases of late, I think ATX will be alive and kicking for a long time, and BTX adoption will be much slower than the transition from AT to ATX. Just my opin, of course...


And thanks for the opinion ...

Ah, I guess my mistake was in assuming that a more efficient cooling design would also be a quieter design. But as you point out a fan at the front makes that doubtful.

Certainly didn't mean to diss the case. It is great to see mainstream companies like Antec adressing the quiet market. As a happy owner of a 3700 and a Sonata, I appreciate that there are easily available retail products that non-modders like me can buy and get a reasonable level of quiet.

A product such as this obiviously represents a considerable investment in design, marketing, and production. I thought the market was moving towards BTX and this product seemed to contradict this, hence my question. After reading your and tay's responses, I'm realizing that was a false assumption. I realize BTX is an Intel creation, but I thought AMD would come along for the ride because better cooling is good for them as well (even if they don't need it as desperately as Intel). Silly me.

Silly me, I was hoping for an even cooler (and quieter) A64 in a BTX box.

Oh well, I look forward to the review.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:50 pm 
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I'm thinking we will begin to see BTX motherboards this summer, more Intel than AMD though. And I agree BTX is going to have a slow adoption, it's going to be expensive to begin with, and there's really very little improvement over ATX in a lot of people's opinions. They could have simply revised ATX keeping some backwards compatibility and gotten practically the same results imo.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:05 pm 
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For whoever was asking... pics of the front with the door wide open and the back panel have been posted -- alongside the original images in the news piece on the front page.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:11 pm 
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I can see my first mode on the p180 already even before release. The drive cages look like they use key rings to actually pull the cage out. This will be anything from quiet. The ring is close enough to the metal so you can bet its going to "tap" "tap" "riiiiiing" depending on how many hard drives are loaded into the cages causing vibrations or just vibration from anywhere else in the case.

so the first mode will be to either take off those 2 rings and use a string instead or to tape them down so they dont rattle against the cage.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:27 pm 
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silverback wrote:
I can see my first mode on the p180 ..... so the first mode will be to either take off those 2 rings and use a string instead or to tape them down so they dont rattle against the cage.

They're ahead of you: The rings clip down in place very securely. No shaky shake there. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:57 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
DavidG wrote:
Promising case but how relevant is it with BTX around the corner.

But who cares? Really. :lol:

In a nutshell, BTX is Intel's answer to the thermal problems created by their own runaway heat Prescott, and it doesn't really address adequate cooling for other components nor does it address noise well. A CPU cooling fan at the very front of the case??

We already know Prescott will not go past P4-3.8, which was released a few months ago, and new dual-core processors based on the P-M core will likely take center stage this year.

With all the innovations we're seeing in cases of late, I think ATX will be alive and kicking for a long time, and BTX adoption will be much slower than the transition from AT to ATX. Just my opin, of course...


According to my meeting with Antec, they will build BTX products alongside their ATX offerings, side by side, and that BTX cannot replace ATX. My impression is that his implied reason for this being the obvious; BTX is a poorer solution than ATX in the first place.

As a matter of fact the only BTX product they even had for us to see is a new microBTX minitower; no BTX PSUs, and all the new cases other than that one are ATX.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:33 am 
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This case looks really interesting, now I'm kinda glad that my new system got delayed a bit due to lack of mobo (A8N-SLI) and videocard availability (6800GT PCI-e). I really can't wait for the review of this one. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:01 am 
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Well I don't know....The pictures look nice and it could be a good seller. But. The design (remember I have a DIY version running right now) has several problems.

With heated air coming out the bottom, you have to be certain none of this heated/rising air gets sucked back into the case through a rear intake. Antec solved this problem (apparently) by designing the rear openings as all exhaust ports, with the only intake area in the front of the case.

In my design which is taller, I have the only intake at the top rear of the case, almost two feet away from the exhaust, and not really affected by the heated air.. The air enters there, is sucked down toward the front of the case, over the hard drives, then is blown out the bottom rear through the duct which runs the length of the bottom of the case. My only exhaust fan is in the center of this duct....I used an Antec TruePower 330 PSU (with the fans removed). It is cooled by the duct fan's airflow (one of the first fanless PSUs :) ).

Antec with this P180 gets all the intake from the front of the case. That works ok, but there's one big problem. All the intake noise is up front...plus if you have this case on the floor, next to your desk, the intake openings will be facing your ears. This doesn't make for "the ultimate quiet computer"......not by a long shot.

From what I can see in the initial photos, I'm not impressed with the airflow, neither am I impressed with the potential of Antec's version of my design (which I called "New Form Factor"), to be a really quiet setup without modification. Sorry Antec....try again. :lol:

Here's a link to the bottom duct I built almost two years ago, which the Antec design imitates...just not as quietly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:55 am 
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Could it be that the Antec P180 might be suffering from the same illness like the Silverstone TJ06 when it comes to PSUs and the length of the main ATX and especially the 4-pin 12V cable?

- The TJ06 has the PSU on top but mobo is upside down, the main ATX connector isn't a problem on most mainboards but the 4-pin 12V connector is often at the very bottom of the case > most 4-pin 12V cables are to short to reach there.

- the P180 has the PSU on the bottom but the mobo rightside up, so the main ATX might not be a problem but the 4-pin 12V connector on many mainboards would be near the very top of the case > most 4-pin 12V cables might be too short again?

This is certainly not a minor issue for me since it is impossible to find 4-pin 12V cable extensions here in Germany, best I could find was a Molex > 4-pin 12V cable adapter.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:04 am 
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DocSilly....if the length of the four-wire connector is your only problem with this case, don't be too concerned. If you cannot find a pre-made extension, that cable can be spliced to a longer length in a few minutes. No big deal....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:44 am 
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Welp, I'd only hate to lose the warranty of my PSU when I have to extend the cables myself via splicing ... otherwise I wouldn't mind, my first computer modifications were on an Amiga 500 many many years ago ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:25 am 
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MikeC

Thanks for the added photos. Looks like the PSU can mount right side up or upside down, judging by the six screw holes around the opening.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:29 am 
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Yeah, thanks for the extra pics Mike. I'm starting to feel really torn now as I much prefer how this case looks to the 3000B and I'd really like to get the right case. Trouble isn't so much the budget as I could stretch to that; rather, it's the wait. I've waited months for this upgrade.

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 Post subject: Fans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:43 am 
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Four fans fitted with the option of two more and you call this silent??? The only silent fan is one that is broken or stationary.

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 Post subject: Re: Fans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:57 am 
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supastar wrote:
Four fans fitted with the option of two more and you call this silent??? The only silent fan is one that is broken or stationary.

Who says you have to use them all? There's fans and then there's fans. And then there's fans run at min speed. I have some systems with 3/4 fans that measure 22~23 dBA/1m. The number of fans provided has nothing to do with low noise levels possible in a case, imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Fans
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:20 am 
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supastar wrote:
Four fans fitted with the option of two more and you call this silent??? The only silent fan is one that is broken or stationary.


Another argument over symantics, I see... :roll:

If your definition of silent is what we consider, "dead silent," or 0dB, then you may be write to deny the case the title of silent, but our definition for silent is inaudible or below ambient. 0dB and inaudible are, practically speaking, no different. If you believe a system can't be built with a couple undervolted 120mm fans that's inaudible or below ambient noise level (low ambient environment, not a metal concert) then you are sorely mistaken.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:53 am 
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I can't speak for supastar.....but my thinking follows the same lines. With this design you'll need a PSU with a fan, the 120mm fan in the bottom duct, a CPU fan with no visible method to duct it, a rear case fan to remove the CPU heat from the case, and maybe a hard drive fan. That's five fans. Maybe you could eliminate one or two, but at the cost of running the others faster.

Five fans even running slow, means five sets of fan bearings, no matter how slow the fans are running. And it also means a fan controller(s) that can handle that many.

We'll have to see one in action I guess, for more definative info about this thing. :?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:05 am 
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DocSilly wrote:
This case looks really interesting, now I'm kinda glad that my new system got delayed a bit due to lack of mobo (A8N-SLI) and videocard availability (6800GT PCI-e). I really can't wait for the review of this one. :D


Heh. That's my problem too. That's the exact setup I'm shooting for. However, since I haven't begun building my uber-gaming-box yet, I'll think I'll hold back a bit and wait for this P180 and a Seasonic S12 power supply.

Very nice job, Antec.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:16 am 
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Bluefront wrote:
I can't speak for supastar.....but my thinking follows the same lines. With this design you'll need a PSU with a fan, the 120mm fan in the bottom duct, a CPU fan with no visible method to duct it, a rear case fan to remove the CPU heat from the case, and maybe a hard drive fan. That's five fans. ...We'll have to see one in action I guess, for more definative info about this thing. :?

I'd use it this way:

1) 1 fan in the PSU channel -- either in the PSU or the 120mm fan supplied. I know from experience that a single 80L Panaflo at 5V is enough to keep 2 cuda' IV + PSU cool enough in a channel. (At least with my 20~28C ambient)
2) 1 or 2 fans on the back/top of the main case

No CPU fan, with any of the top reasonably open fin HS. (Thermalright, Zalman, Scythe, etc). No need for any intake fans. I wouldn't use the HDD cage in the main chamber; I never have a need for more than 2 drives anyway.

A setup not too dissimilar to this works fine for me in a highly modded case running an A64-3800+.

That's 2-3 fans, no more than what I usually use. And if the 120mm 3-speed fan in our SLK3000 sample is any indication, the supplied fans are pretty dang quiet at the min setting -- very similar to a Nexus 120 at 12v, but maybe with higher air -- have to test this still.

Bottom line: How noise/quiet will depend on what you do with it, as usual, but the options here are... plentiful. And that, combined with the various noise damping / heat separating functions, really is point of this case.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:48 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Bottom line: How noise/quiet will depend on what you do with it, as usual, but the options here are... plentiful. And that, combined with the various noise damping / heat separating functions, really is point of this case.


Here here. Well said. Negative nellies obsessing over fan counts need to acknowledge the cases other strengths, such as the extensive use of damping materials at contact points, multi-layered panels, huge airflow potential, lack of built-in PSU, generous size, etc. This thing is amazing!

Bluefront, regarding this case design matching up with some of your own previous ideas, wouldn't the G5 be a more likely inspiration?

Image

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 Post subject: all fans set back in apple design
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:28 pm 
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I find it interesting that the fans in the apple design are all set back from the front and rear surfaces similar to the diy project at overclockers.com that was mentioned here a few days ago. In the p180 the lower compartment uses this idea, but no where else. Then theres the power supply located flush to the rear panel. The real advantage to the case may be the composite panels, additional fan locations, and other construction details, and not so much the bottom compartment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:37 pm 
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My only concern with this case is did Antec allow enough room for the insertion of any of the many oversized PSU's that are on the market now? I realize this community's primary concern is with making your computer as quiet and efficient as possible (as is mine). I see this case as also being an answer for many of the power users and quiet PC enthusiasts out there who want SLI which even in it's early stages is severely stressing many of the supposed "power house' PSUs.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:58 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
silverback wrote:
I can see my first mode on the p180 ..... so the first mode will be to either take off those 2 rings and use a string instead or to tape them down so they dont rattle against the cage.

They're ahead of you: The rings clip down in place very securely. No shaky shake there. 8)


:P 8) great!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:17 pm 
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The PowerMac G5 is certainly a great design that also looks great. But it's my impression the focus was more on performance than cooling, deeper fan placement or not. It's really curious to note that there's no offical noise spec from Apple -- at least not in any of the tech docs / specs that I've found on the Apple site. (I've looked a few times). I also read around the time of its relase that the typical noise level was something like 36 dBA/1m (??). (Anyone have any confirmation / comment on the PMG5 noise?)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Everyone ever heard an apple g5. um I understand they have great airflow design but in no way what so ever would I want my computer to sound like a g5. They are freakin loud.

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 Post subject: G5 design
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:26 pm 
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I looked around and could only find a Steve Jobs assertion that the noise level was 35dba/??. This apparently is 2x less noisy than the G4 which was known as somewhat noisy. The G5 generates a lot more heat than the G4 and uses 9 fans compared to the single fan G4. The G5 also employs 21 sensors to adjust the fans and keep the temperature down. The G5 case is larger and yet has one less pci slot and room for only one optical drive. The motherboard is difficult to access parts on, so a lot of concessions where made to design a case that would cool the G5 processors and remain quiet. The latest and greatest G5s have heat pipe cpu coolers which apple refers to as water cooling. Its interesting to see what apple can do with the option of designing a system from the ground up including new motherboard configurations, power supplies, etc..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:26 pm 
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The german C'T magazine reviewed the G5s including noise measurements.


Power Mac G5 1600:
39,3 dBA/2,8 Sone Betrieb (idle)
50,3 dBA/7,0 Sone Kopie CD/HD (copy cd/hdd) ... the old G4 even managed 14,06 Sone :shock:

Power Mac G5 Dual 2000:
32,7 dBA/1,3 Sone Betrieb (idle)
40,4 dBA/3,2 Sone Kopie CD/HD (copy cd/hdd)
40,1 dBD/2,5 Sone Last (load)

Power Mac G5 Dual 2500:
42,2 dBA/3,8 Sone Betrieb (idle)
46,2 dBA/5,2 Sone Kopie CD/HD (copy cd/hdd)
46,7 dBA/5,1 Sone Last (load)

The testroom is a silenced room with 4 mics taking measurements from all 4 directions at a distance of 50cm, so you have to subtract 6dB to compare with 1m standard measurements.
I really like their Sone measurements since they're easier to compare and more natural to the human ear ... they're linear so 2 Sone is twice as loud as 1 Sone and 4 Sone twice as loud as 2 Sone. Here an example:

24 dBA 1KHz note = 0.3 Sone = rustling leaves
40 dBA 1KHz note = 1 Sone = ambient noise with A/C
50 dBA 1KHz note = 2 Sone = a conversation
60 dBA 1KHz note = 4 Sone = TV at normal volume
70 dBA 1KHz note = 8 Sone = a typewriter

That's a reference for 1KHz only, it would vary for other frequencies.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 3:45 pm 
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How do the 3.5" drives mount in the lower chamber of the P180?

I see the spring-clips in the upper one but no holes or clips in the lower.


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