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 Post subject: Shuttle Cases
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:34 pm 
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Tom's hardware has done a review on two shuttle barebone systems. The one is the Intel variety that has been around for a while SB51G. The other is a new AMD version SB41G2. THG specifically mentions the noise these systems make.

Anyone have any experience with them?

TIA
Peter

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030131/index.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030131/index.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:42 pm 
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I've been thinking of getting one of the SN41G2's (the AMD one). Odd, from most of the reviews I've read so far they haven't mentioned that the fans were exceptionally loud, and some of them were in perspective that the system could be used as a Home Theater PC (HTPC) so I'm sure they considered the fans to be quiet.

There are some discussions about the SN42G2 over a Sudhian SFF forum worth looking into. http://forums.sudhian.com/categories.cfm?catid=33


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:44 pm 
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I have one comment, I found them to be very noisy especially the PS. Which is also hard to do any mods because of the small form factor and small fan used inside the PS.

I would avoid them, unless you love the design..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:16 am 
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It can be made decently quiet.
1) PSU fan can be changed (adda, etc)
2) 80mm fan can be changed.
3) Noise damping can be applied.
4) Cutting the grill has profound effect on sound on these (wire instead of stamped)
5) slow down the graphics fan.
Air flow seems quite decent.
I've had it for about 2 months (ss51g) and ran out of expansion slots... thus my current CoolerMaster.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:53 pm 
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Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
jinu-

What fan do you use to replace the PSU fan? What retailers can they be bought from?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:08 pm 
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jinu117 wrote:
It can be made decently quiet.
1) PSU fan can be changed (adda, etc)
2) 80mm fan can be changed.
3) Noise damping can be applied.
4) Cutting the grill has profound effect on sound on these (wire instead of stamped)
5) slow down the graphics fan.
Air flow seems quite decent.
I've had it for about 2 months (ss51g) and ran out of expansion slots... thus my current CoolerMaster.


Hi,

I am also very interested in a similar setup. I would be running a Radeon 9500 with an SN41G2 case and would like to have a very quiet system.

Does anyone know what the actual noise ratings are for such a system with a Radeon9x card (either w/Zalman cooler or stock fan) at high and low system fan speeds? I am thinking of using my adjustable YS-Tech fan instead of the standard case fan for this application as it can be manually varied from 10.2-48.7cfm (800-3300rpm), with sound rated from 18-39.5dB.

I too would like to know what fan can be purchased that can replace the stock one used in the Shuttle 200W PSU. I would like to have an extremely quiet, but cool, XPC with good airflow... I'm thinking about cutting a couple of wire-grilled blowholes near the rear and using low rpm, low noise (NMB?) fans with some sort of ducting setup with one blowing hot air out of the case and the other ducted straigt through to the heatpipe's radiator as another alternative to keep it both cool and quiet.

Any thoughts? :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:42 pm 
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Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
I have built a couple of SK41G systems (for AMD). One needs to keep in mind that with Soyo's Autoguardian turned on, the mobo will change the speed of the case/cpu fan depending on CPU temperature. There are three speeds - app 80%, app 90% and 100% of top fan speed. The temperature at which the mobo goes to the middle speed is selectable in the bios. It can be varied between 40C and 52C in 4 degree increments. The mobo goes to high speed when the CPU hits 56C.

Choosing an optimal fan was a matter of trial and error for me. There are some devilish tradeoffs here. A smaller fan may be quieter at first, but if it is so small that the CPU temperature hits the Autoguardian switch-up temperature during casual use, then it may not be quieter than a larger fan that keeps the CPU below the switch-up temperature during normal use..

I tested the fans by shutting off Autoguardian, which causes the fans to rotate at full speed. I then ran my usual stress tests to see what the CPU temperature was. If the CPU temp was where I would expect it to be with a fixed speed CPU cooling solution, then I deemed the fan adequate.

As to the question about noise with a Radeon 9500, this is also difficult to answer. The power draw of the Radeon while gaming will cause the PS to speed up its fan. The heat from the card during game play may push the CPU temperature up high enough to hit the swich-up temperature. And so on. My advice would be to shoot for a system that is quiet while not under stress and accept some increase in noise while gaming. After all, you will probably have the speakers on high enough to cover any increased noise.

I do not think that there is enough space between the video card and the case cover to use a Zalman cooler. Finding a place to put a blow hole is going to be problemattic as the box is packed and space is very tight. Moving the optical device cable out of the way, you might be able to put one just in front of the case/CPU fan. It might also end up making the system louder.

And don't forget to leave some headroom for those hot summer days and nights. Even if your house is air conditioned, the LAN party might not be.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:31 am 
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
Afrika1, your major issue will be quieting the PSU. Until you do that, you won't even be able to hear the graphics card. Changing the PSU fan seems to work, but I'm too chicken to open mine up.

SmalQuietComputing is right that the Zalman cooler will not fit in the case. As for the case fan, I just used a Panaflo L1A. Even running at full speed, I still can't hear it over the PSU and temps are lower than when trying to control the stock fan using Speedfan.


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 Post subject: source for adda fans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:49 am 
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jinu mentioned replacing the psu fan with an adda. found them on the web at www.addausa.com retail source www.mouser.com if they can convince me the adda is quieter I'm going to go ahead and rip open the psu, replace the fan with an adda and I'll let you guys know

Thank you jinu and everyone else working on this problem


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:05 am 
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p.694 of mouser.com catalog talks about adda fans. new "hypro" bearing design, less friction, they say the fans run cooler, not much about noise but one would assume less friction less noise. can anyone help me nail the exact size or spec of the psu fan to be replaced?

thanks

joe


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 Post subject: Re: source for adda fans
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:14 pm 
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joe1992 wrote:
jinu mentioned replacing the psu fan with an adda. found them on the web at www.addausa.com retail source www.mouser.com if they can convince me the adda is quieter I'm going to go ahead and rip open the psu, replace the fan with an adda and I'll let you guys know

Thank you jinu and everyone else working on this problem


The adda fan I mentioned flows less air than stock sunon. About 60% of it only I think. However, if you cut grills, your temp gets better than stock sunon.
I really had hard time finding the adda fan so what I did was to get chipset cooler kit from CompUSA (it will have some wierd name on it on display side but on the other side it says adda where heatsink is attached) and use the fan. (about $10-12 if I remember correctly)
The one I used to use is AD0412LS-G40 rated at 14db. (size 40x40x10) Anything with higher airflow will suffice.
Once you do that, you will start hearing the GPU fan sounds which is horrible in SFF box due to fan's location. 7v drowns some of it but not all. Maybe some aftermarket cooling unit might do it better (such as ocsystem one possibly). Too bad Zalman won't fit in there.
Once you quiet the GPU and PSU as well as main fan down, immediate noise is HDD. After that, the case's restrictive air inlet will be most disturbing if you already case matted it with paxmate or dynamet will be the wheezing airflow sound in through that tiny holes on side.
(at which point I moved on to current case and it is even quieter than my previous rig with 2-3 times the number of fan)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:32 pm 
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Location: Albany, NY
Cool... I'll have to hit CompUSA this week and find that. For 10-12 it's worth it since the shipping would be that much anyways.

I have a SB51G that i'm working on right now for my mother. The panflow M & L1a's are on their way ( will choose whichever works best ). I have a Cuda IV 80GB and so far it's fairly quiet, but not where I would like it to be. Between the panflow and the adda replacement fans + cutouts I should be in good shape. Now if shuttle would only allow voltage control.

Cheers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:34 am 
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Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
If you order from mouser.com, there is a USPS Priority Mail with tracking option for shipping. This will cost no more than UPS shipping and will get it to you faster. Scroll through the long list of shipping options and you will find it. They also carry 40mm fan grills.

The stock fan (on at least the SK41G and SB51G) is a Sunon KD1204PFB1-8, 7400RPM, 7.3CFM 31DBA - 40x40x10mm. The Adda 40X10 fans spec out as follows:

AD0412LX-??? - 4.7 CFM, 14DBA (CFM=64% of stock fan)
AD0412MX-??? - 5.7 CFM, 20DBA (CFM=78% of stock fan)
AD0412HX-??? - 6.7 CFM, 25DBA (CFM=92% of stock fan)

With the stamped grill removed, the high speed Adda probably yields an air flow equivalent to the stock fan with the stamped grill in place. Bear in mind that this is not a Seasonic PSU in a tower case. There is likely much less headroom in terms of the fan and air flow through the PSU.

I am running the mid flow Adda in my SK41G with the stamped grill removed and the power supply definitely runs considerably hotter (XP1700 and MX440 DDR fanless video card). I guess the good news is that the whine from the Panaflo L1A is now the dominant noise from the machine (tried two different ones, both whine a bit, fan is isolated from cage using 8 rubber washers and cage is partially isolated from case using 4 washers).

CPU temperature at idle in a 68F room went up two degrees to 42C. CPU temperature under stress went up one degree to 46C.

Just to be on the safe side, I lowered the AutoGuardian switch-over temperature from 52C to 48C. I figured that this would help keep the PSU a bit cooler on hot days. Besides which, the L1A at 90% with the mid flow Adda is quieter than the L1a at 80% with the stock PSU fan or even the high flow Adda.

This got me to thinking about adding ventilation holes to the PSU to allow the case fan to better help keep the PSU cool. Some other time perhaps.

In a loaded system (faster CPU, say an ATI 9700), the PSU would be working much harder and hotter. Caveat emptor - you may be reducing the lifespan of the PSU and you may end up with a rude surprise on a hot summer day. Has anyone stressed a loaded system with the mid flow Adda on a hot day?

And while were are at it, does anyone know the manufacturer and the part number of the fan connector used in the new Enhance power supply? If we could find out, it would be possible to do solderless fan replacements on the power supply.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:08 pm 
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I just put together a SK41G system with an AMD 1700+ OC to 1900+. They are not quiet! Once the autoguardian kicks in, bring out the ear plugs.

I think there are several ways to reduce the noise thus reducing noice. First, CUT the grill. About half the area of both exhause fan is cover by the grill. What were they thinking? They did so much to improve air flow in the case, but they decide to block half of the fan's exhaust! Second, you can change the 80 mm fan. It's a Sunon, so its not to bad. It might be better to find a way to isolate it. Third, drill some hole on the side where the power supply is so it can get some air. Most of the air vents in the power supply is covered by the case cover so only the back of it is getting any air. These third steps should reduce a lot of the noise. Of coarse, your HD has a lot to do with it also.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:24 am 
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The fan isolating do wonder on 80mm fan on these SFF. One thing to keep in mind...
Rubber grommet will make the original screwless fan mounting knobs to be too short for its application (unless you tighten it down quite a bit which destroys the whole purpose). Might want to get something a little longer for those 4.
I forgot to mention one thing about my set up which had no CD/DVD in it. (externally housed dvd burner at the time) which no doubt helped air flow). SS51G and DVR-104 decided not to play nice for me (thus external housing it)
The one thing that is really missing in this case is the intake air... which comes through passive holes (thus straining exhaust fans even more). If you can mount a fan on side panel that draws air in next to the PSU, I bet you will see temp difference of 4-5c easily.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:49 pm 
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Location: Albany, NY
I was thinking of getting some semi-elastic cording ( ~2mm wide ) Tying a knot in one end and string ing it through the fan assembly with some sort of rubber spacers. Then all you need to do is achor the other end and you are done... I'll try it out and post pictures if it works.

I was also seriously consitering mounting the fan on the outside of the case as it's very cramped on the inside right there with the cd-rom cord and all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:20 pm 
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jinu117 wrote:
The fan isolating do wonder on 80mm fan on these SFF. One thing to keep in mind...
Rubber grommet will make the original screwless fan mounting knobs to be too short for its application (unless you tighten it down quite a bit which destroys the whole purpose). Might want to get something a little longer for those 4.
.
.
.
The one thing that is really missing in this case is the intake air... which comes through passive holes (thus straining exhaust fans even more). If you can mount a fan on side panel that draws air in next to the PSU, I bet you will see temp difference of 4-5c easily.


I am only using a rubber washer between the case and the fan cage. I find the knobs are then long enough. The fan is isoloated from its cage by eight rubber washers.

I am taking my SK41G on a visit to a friend with a very nice drill press. I am thinking of adding ventilation holes in the case by the end of the PSU (the end away from the PSU's fan). I am hoping that this will keep the speed of the PSU fan from revving up as much while under stress or in hot weather. I am trying to avoid adding more fans to the system.


Last edited by SmallQuietComputing on Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:24 pm 
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Location: Albany, NY
As a ( seemingly ) easier fix for the PS ventilation problem I'm going to add some plastic guides for the airflow on the PS side of the case.

The guides will extend off the powersuply down and over to the edges of the case. This was more of the ventiation from that side of the case should go right to the PS. If it makes any difference in cooling power I'll report it back.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:03 am 
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I made a board to control all the fans in my SV25. It keeps the box quiet most of the time, but protects against overheating. I can sleep at night because it does not rely on software to keep it running.

I've also replaced the PS fan & cut grills. That was huge. Now my drive is the most annoying part.

There's a web site that attemps to describe it. Click the goofy 'www' button at the bottom of this post. I've posted some other stuff in the 'fans & control' forum, too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:40 am 
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From my subjective observation on shuttle case, the most heat generated on these machines are 1) PSU, 2)CPU.
The locations of each components doesn't help much in cooling if you notice how there are some possible heat pockets created right on top of PSU. Negative pressure has its benefits but best cooling I've noticed has been when its optimized pressure level with good airflow. In front of PSU right around HDD would be nice place to put it if possible as it will keep HDD cooler and give about half of cool air to PSU.
(never got around doing that as I finally figured SFF isn't for me with my tendency to keep adding stuff)

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 Post subject: Experiences with SS51G
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:47 pm 
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First thing I did was ditch the stock CPU fan. I replaced it with a Pabst 8412 n/2gml. Airflow is ~26cfm at 19dBA. At least that's the rating. Given the stock fan is rated at 39.5 cfm at ~34dBA it seems ok. The stock fan normally did ~2/3 max speed so it's in the right ballpark.

I mounted this by knotting elastics through the holes and wrapping an elastit around the frame. This isolates it effectively. The stock mounting method makes contact with the CPU heatsink/radiator. Not good for noise. I also used rubber grommets to isolate the actual fan cage from the case. You will need longer screws for this. I cut out the stamped grill and used the stock fan wire grill on the outside of the case. Very quiet when done.

I tried using a Zalman HP80a on a Ti 4200 card. It works, but cannot fit inside the case. I eventually used a Thermaltake GF4 cooling kit. I wired 2 100 Ohm 1/2 watt resisters in parallel and used the video card's fan header. This drops the fan speed to a tolerable level and allows me to close the case. As with the PSU fan below, I connected the fan's header to the motherboard with only the yellow wire connected.

The PSU is the biggest source of heat. I ended up replacing the fan inside it with an external fan ( sunon kd1204pkb1 ). I chose this one as it pushes more air than the stock PSU fan and is quieter. ~24 dBA if I remember correctly. It's thicker than the stock fan so it won't fit inside. I mounted it on the end inside the case, just under the cables using silicone. Voiding the warranty, of course, I cut out the grill on that end and removed the stock fan ( leaving the external fan grill intact ). I used the fan wires to power the new fan and connected the new fan to the motherboard fan header ( only the yellow wire is connected ). This actually allows me to monitor the PSU fan speed. I also sealed up all the remaining vents as I am blowing air INTO the PSU and want the air and heat to go through the unit and OUTSIDE the case, not to recirculate inside.

I still need to try isolating the hard drive, and maybe enabling the Maxtor's quieter drive settings ( Diamond Max Plus 120 Gb ).

The end result is that this system is ridiculously quieter than stock. Even sitting next to its sister system with the same mods except for the PSU fan mod, it's considerably quieter.

Your major noise source in these XPCs is the PSU. You'll notice the CPU fan swap. Your video card fan will probably swamp anything else.

I also run all the fans without guards. They introduce turbulence and I have no reason to reach inside such a tiny system while it's running so I fail to see the need for them. You can't touch any of them with the case on anyway. The wire guard on the outside is necessary due to sharp edges and I don't want things bumping the heatsink/radiator assembly. The PSU fanguard should remain in place. It doesn't affect airflow in any real manner and you definitely DON'T want to accidentally reach inside when moving the unit.

Overall air temps have not changed much, if any. The CPU fan guardian feature is off. The PSU fan rarely kicks into a higher speed. Most noise is simply the hard drive. There's a definite soft whoosh airflow noise at all times but it is not unpleasant and barely noticeable.

Also, the grommet mounting of the fan cage leaves a gap. I haven't bothered to fix this as there's a definite "hot pocket" of air at the top of the case. I figure that this gap may cause some air circulation in the top of the case, but that's entirely conjecture on my part.

All of the fans and VidCard coolers I used can be found at http://www.plycon.com

Not an endorsement as such, just where I happened to find the parts I needed.


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