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 Post subject: Keeping the dust out. Now with pics.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:39 pm 
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Well I want to keep the dust out of my case, off the innards. Clean parts are easier to cool. Here's what I've done so far...

Closed off all the vent ports except for the front case fan and the rear case fan.

Sealed around the drive openings with thin felt tape. Sealed around all the openings till I cannot see light through the cracks from the inside.

Sealed around the card edges as best I could with tape.

Turned both case fans to blow in (positive pressure). Put good pleated paper filters over both intakes.

I'm using an Antec 2600 case which is a tight case...solid one-piece top and right side.


So far about two months of use and no dust....Anybody else interested in a clean setup? Any links to different techniques?


Last edited by Bluefront on Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:34 pm 
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Part of the reason you use positive pressure is that you don't have to seal up all the cracks! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:23 pm 
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If you run the fans fast enough, you'd be right. But with low-speed fans to maintain the quiet, the positive pressure is greatly reduced. Thus I had to seal everything to maintain the pressure.

Also, unless you run the computer 24/7, which I don't, dust can get in with the computer just sitting there.....unless it's sealed pretty good. I don't want to be bothered with covering it, so with this setup I'm not worried about dust whether it's running or not. Any dust that manages to get in the exhaust ports, should be blown out the next time the computer is started. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:01 am 
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Not to sound crass, but wouldn't just giving the innards a blow-out with canned air once a month be just as effective?

Putting filters one the intakes reduces your system's cooling efficiency, thus cancelling out the whole reason you wanted to keep the dust out for.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:57 am 
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Rusty075 wrote:
Not to sound crass, but wouldn't just giving the innards a blow-out with canned air once a month be just as effective?

Putting filters one the intakes reduces your system's cooling efficiency, thus cancelling out the whole reason you wanted to keep the dust out for.


I have to agree with you Rusty075. I see no way around opening up the vents to dust. Eliminating the filters meant the difference between safe temps and dangerously high temps -- at the same fan voltage!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:45 am 
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I've experimented with different filter setups, different types. What I discovered is the standard little foam pad most setups use, is way too restrictive, even for a slow-speed fan. Not to mention it doesn't stop the fine dust that coats everything. I have a very dusty house, mostly due to pets (parrots). And I don't want to take the computers apart for dusting all the time. Canned air can only go so far with cleaning....it will do nothing to remove the sticky residue from cooking and other sources which coats the fans and cooling fins.

You can achieve a cool, quiet and clean case.....but it takes some effort.
The biggest problem is the filter itself. It must stop the dust, while at the same time pass enough air to allow sufficient cooling. This is NOT possible with every commercially available computer filter I've ever seen. The problem is the filters are not big enough....not enough surface area to work properly.

Foam filters will not stop dust.....IMHO it takes a quality paper filter to do the job. If you look at furnace filters, you'll see what I mean. The expensive filters that claim "Hi-Efficiency" are mostly a paper material, not foam or fiberglass. And look at HEPA filters...they use a paper material and all have a large surface area.

The pleats in the filters I use greatly increase the surface area, and allow air to pass through without being too restrictive. I've researched the temperature effects of filters using a DigitalDoc5 and a non-contact infra-red guided digital thermometer. So I'm satisfied my final setup is not running too hot.

Using a celeron 2.0 the cpu temp is barely 4C over ambient at idle, and stays under 40C at 100% usage. Other temps are equally low. This is using two intake fans...80mm. The front runs a constant 1600rpm while the rear is variable, and rarely exceeds 2500. The setup is plenty quiet for me.

The hard part is fitting a large enough filter too keep the dust out, while at the same time letting the air in. Not possible on many cases without extreme modification.....It is possible on this Antec 2600.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:29 am 
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Positive is positive, regardless of fan flow etc; although blocking up the holes was probably a good idea. Last month one of my intakes became disconnected. I discovered it a week later and ended up having to vaccum out my computer.

Just make sure there is more CFM in than out. Remember to include a factor for the filters on the intakes, and don't forget your PSU fan.

My current setup has three filtered Panaflo L1A's as intakes, and two as exhaust. The filters I use are "WEB Electrostatic Vent Filters" cut to shape. They seem as effective as the foam filters, but pass more air.

Bluefront - could you please give some more information on the filters you use? Do you adapt a product available at retail?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:25 am 
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Riffer wrote:
Bluefront - could you please give some more information on the filters you use? Do you adapt a product available at retail?


heh... I am with Riffer in asking what exactly you use Bluefront. I was reading your whole last post and was waiting for you to mention exactly what you use as filters but didn't. You don't want to share the info because of all the hard research you did? :wink: I'm sure you just forgot to mention it by the end of your post. hehe


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:31 pm 
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OK...here's the "secret" of my filters. I found them all at Home Depot in the lawn and Garden section. These are lawn-mower filters. They come in many different sizes, so you can measure the available space you have...then find one that fits.

The hard fit is the front case fan, behind the front cover of the computer. On my Antec 2600 I'm using a Briggs and Stratton #5028. By looking you would think this thing would pass plenty of air and not be too restrictive. Wrong. I can run an 80mm fan a maximum of 1600rpm....higher than that and the filter is too restrictive. The fan gets noisy and not much more air gets through. But this is the biggest filter that would fit for me, and at 1600rpm it's fast enough. I attached it with some double-sided sticky tape.

Now the rear filter is where most of the air gets into my case. This has a surface area at least three times the area of the the front filter. It's a Power Care filter #165-036 H-KAF-110. It will cover a fan up to 80mm. It is much deeper than the other filter....It is somewhat triangular in shape and fits the Antec 2600 perfectly. It is held on by mounting a 6mm threaded stud through the center of the fan guard...tightening the stud down with a lock nut. The filter fits over the stud and is tightened down with a wing nut. It looks like a little automotive air filter....works perfect.

Look I don't have any way to host pictures of this rig. If anyone wants to do that...let me know and I can send the pictures.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:54 pm 
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I never need much of an excuse to go to home depot.

Host pictures here:

http://www.theforumisdown.com/upload/upload.php


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:03 pm 
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Following in my idea of mounting 3 intake fans on the underside of the case, i was thinking of heading down to the auto parts store (NAPA for me, as I used to work there) and getting a nice rectangular automotive paper element air filter. I'd thought about spending some bucks and getting a nice K&N air filter, as I know those come in the dimensions I'd want as well. Just that with the oil soaked cotton gauze wouldn't clean as easy. Standard paper element is gonna be much easier to just knock off most of the dust and crud. Though the K&N would likely flow better Figure that 12" x 6" of pleated air filter would flow enough for 3 low rpm fans? hmm....


Zyzzyx
- wondering where he's gonna get the time and money to do this project

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:51 pm 
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what also works well as a filter...are used Bounce sheets! just cut it out to fit your fan, your room will smell spring fresh! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:41 am 
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Gdog....I suppose those Bounce sheets are better than nothing, but we get back to the surface area thing. Simply not enough. If they're effective enough to filter out dust, they'll clog quickly.

Then there's the sound factor which I never even mentioned. If you put a filter of any sort right next to the fan blades (on the intake side of course), the noise will be dramatically increased. And will get even worse as the filter gets dirty.

The lawn-mower filters I'm using, avoid that proximity-noise problem by design. The filter is not right up on the fan blades.....there's a space at least 1/8" or slightly more over the blades. This is on the flat front case filter. The larger PowerCare filter I'm using on the rear avoids the noise problem completely by it's size.

These lawn-mower filters are very cheap. And their life can be prolonged by occasionally running a small vacuum with a brush attachment over the filter (on the outside).

I'm considering cutting a hole in the lower part of the Antec front cover so I can attach the larger PowerCare filter. Then it could be replaced easily like the one on the rear. Loosen the one wing nut and the filter is off, making it a breeze to replace or clean. The powerCare filter comes with a washable foam pre-filter which tightly covers the paper filter.....The whole setup even looks neat. I'll post some pictures asap.

Oh about that K&N filter......it's designed to be used with the material slightly oil-soaked. Don't know how it would work dry. I think sucking through that filter oil-soaked would really be bad for a computer...wouldn't bother a gas engine though.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:58 pm 
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Image

Here's the Power Care filter #165-036 installed on the rear of an Antec 2600. The rear case port is 80mm. You can see the foam pre-filter which covers the paper filter.I think it cost about $8 at Home Depot.

Image

Here's my little bracket to hold the filter. Had I not already cut out the fan grill, I could have run the center stud right through the centerof the grill.....and avoided making the bracket. Right above the mounted filter you can see the edge of a little aluminum scoop which extends out to the edge of the filter. It prevents PS air from going back into the filter.

Image

Here you can see the inside with the paper pleats, and the rubber bottom seal. This setup will fit perfectly over most 80mm fan ports. I've fitted one on four different computers. Very easy install. You do need to find the right length threaded stud for your case. In order to tighten down the stud, the threads need to run the length of the stud. I had some in my garage so I cannot tell you where to get one....try the hardware dept at Home Depot.


Last edited by Bluefront on Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:03 pm 
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bluehat,

I can't see any pictures. Is there another way you can post them? Can you directly link to their location from their corporate website?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:18 pm 
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You're the second person who cannot see the pictures. Don't have a clue what's wrong. I used the link above (theforumisdown.com) to host the pictures. The pictures load fine for me at three different locations. Using XP pro, IE6.0. Try my test photo posted in the test section. These are little photos, about 35k each.

Any other free pict hosting site you know about?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:30 pm 
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Bluefront wrote:
You're the second person who cannot see the pictures. Don't have a clue what's wrong. I used the link above (theforumisdown.com) to host the pictures. The pictures load fine for me at three different locations. Using XP pro, IE6.0. Try my test photo posted in the test section. These are little photos, about 35k each.

Any other free pict hosting site you know about?


Nope, the test msg didn't work either. I tried opera and IE6. How about trying geocities? Or one of the sites listed here: http://www.freewebspace.net/php/topList.php?cat=overall

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:56 pm 
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Ok I put the picts in a Yahoo Photo album.

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bluefront100


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 2:05 pm 
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I can see all 3 pictures now.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:32 pm 
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Thanks for the link. I noticed that you can link directly to the photos too:

Image

The extra surface area from the folded paper must help with the airflow. I wonder how it compares to freeflow...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:50 pm 
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Heh....I can answer that last question about free-flow. I have that fan you see blowing directly on an Alpha heatsink through a shroud. The alpha had no fan during the tests....just the air blowing from the rear fan. I used a constant velosity fan @2400rpm.

I measured the cpu temp (internal diode, and digidoc probe) at an idle and at 100% cpu usage. Then I tried several filter setups. This Power Care filter was the best by far. The cpu temp only went up about 1.5C with this filter. Some of the other filters I tried raised temps almost 10C.

Unless someone can find a better filter that fits the case, is easy to mount, and works......I'm sticking with the Power Care.

FWIW...A Kohler filter #1208305 is supposed to be the same according to the power care package.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:26 pm 
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Bluefront wrote:
Image

Here's the Power Care filter #165-036 installed on the rear of an Antec 2600. The rear case port is 80mm. You can see the foam pre-filter which covers the paper filter.I think it cost about $8 at Home Depot.

Image

Here's my little bracket to hold the filter. Had I not already cut out the fan grill, I could have run the center stud right through the centerof the grill.....and avoided making the bracket. Right above the mounted filter you can see the edge of a little aluminum scoop which extends out to the edge of the filter. It prevents PS air from going back into the filter.

Image

Here you can see the inside with the paper pleats, and the rubber bottom seal. This setup will fit perfectly over most 80mm fan ports. I've fitted one on four different computers. Very easy install. You do need to find the right length threaded stud for your case. In order to tighten down the stud, the threads need to run the length of the stud. I had some in my garage so I cannot tell you where to get one....try the hardware dept at Home Depot.


Here you go ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 12:51 am 
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intresting filter, are you getting any turbulance from those sharp honeycomb edges?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:33 am 
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Don't know about that. I'll probably clean up the edges the next time I have the case apart.

FWIW....the fan is not mounted directly on the case. I used the shells of two old 80mm fans to space the fan further inside the case. Then on the back-side of the fan, I mounted the shroud off a Zalman 5700. That turns the airflow 90 degrees and blows directly on an Alpha heatsink.

I think spacing the fan further inside makes the whole setup much quieter.Seems to me anyway. If anybody still cannot see the pictures, here they are...

http://photos.yahoo.com/bluefront100


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:11 pm 
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Rusty075 wrote:
Putting filters one the intakes reduces your system's cooling efficiency, thus cancelling out the whole reason you wanted to keep the dust out for.

What information are you basing this conclusion on? I'm not necessarily saying you're incorrect, but just wondering if you're actually making this determination based on experimental data or articles you've read, or whether you are just opposed to air fitration in principle.

I personally wouldn't just dismiss ALL filtration solutions as "cancelling out the whole reason you wanted to keep the dust out for". If, for example, a filtration system were to eliminate 95% of the incoming dust while reducing CFM's by 5% (just some theoretical numbers to illustrate a point), I think that would hardly be considered "cancelling out the whole reason you wanted to keep the dust out for".

It's really all a matter of tradeoffs--noise vs filtration vs airflow. Making one of the three better will usually make the other two worse, but the key is to achieve the best possible balance between the three. I would much prefer to use filtration while increasing airflow to compensate. Which would usually generate more noise with typical filtration solutions, but I've found that by utilizing a filter which entirely covers the intake and area around the intake, it actually reduces the noise levels and makes it QUIETER than having no filter at all, by functioning as a filter AND a muffler/barrier to the fan noise. In other words, it allows adequate air filtration while maintaining adequate noise and airflow levels as well. I'll post some pics when I get the chance.


Last edited by jcdenton on Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:21 pm 
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One other advantage to "filtration at the source" vs "periodic blasts of canned air": To properly clean your case and components takes significantly more than just a few blasts of canned air. Depending on the composition of the dust in your particular home, it can often become "bonded" to your case and components, such that even close up blasts of air will not remove all of it. I've seen PC's where no amount of canned air could adequately clean it, and it required a damp paper towel to do the job properly.

The same goes for the "back" of fan blades, most CPU coolers (where you have to remove the fan to properly clean the heatsink itself) and other cooling solutions like PCI slot coolers, which are extremely inconvenient to clean. It's a lot easier to trap the dust at the source than it is to clean these components out regularly. Of course even well filtered cases require the occasional case cleaning, but far less often as with no filtration at all.


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 Post subject: High airflow car filters
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:18 pm 
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:idea:
Last month I installed a new air filter for my car- the idea is to improve the airflow... the manufacturer is
http://www.knfilters.com/

In the store where I bought it, there was a test rig showing the difference between a normal folded paper air filter and the K&N filter.

The rig was a perspex box with an 80mm fan sucking air through the filter slot at the front, and exhausting through a vertical column with a ping pong ball at the bottom of the exhaust column(see the astronaut slection scene in The Right Stuff). With the std paper filter, ping pong ball sat where it was, replace it with the K&N filter, up went the ping pong ball to the top of the column.

I'd suggest that if you want a reliable, high airlow filter you could have a look at these filters. They are *not* cheap (US$50 here for the one for my car) but for keeping dust out while still providing good airflow they should be a good fit.

Cheers,

Indulis

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 6:46 pm 
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Well I've seen the K&N car filters. The ones I've seen require the filter material to be oiled to work. I think the oil is what makes these filters catch dust. I'm pretty sure the filter would not catch dust very well if it was used dry. Plus it costs too much.

I tried many different filters....that PowerCare works the best. Here's a few other types I tried.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/bluefront100/lst?.dir=/Case+Filters&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/

Off the K&N website

"17. Do the filters come pre-oiled or must they be oiled before using?

K&N filters come pre-oiled and ready to use. The filter medium is made from layers of white cotton gauze. The oil has a red dye added to show how much is being applied. If the filter looks pinkish-red, it is oiled. It is important that K&N air filters are never used unoiled. This would greatly degrade their filtering ability. "


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:37 pm 
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Hello:

My solution: Fabricated a box with a 45 degree surface to which was mounted an 80mm Vantec Stealth. The box was fitted to the bottom of the case, after an appropriate cut-out was made, beneath the HD cage.

My case sits on a shelf attached to the side of my desk. The shelf has a matching cut-out and on the surface of the shelf I mounted a piece of mesh-style furnace filter.

Works great and no significant increase in temp.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:59 am 
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The dust filtering ability of any setup depends on at least two things.....the filter material itself, and the total surface area of the filter.
If the material is too coarse, dust gets through. If the surface area is too small, the fan will suck the dust through more easily because of pressure. If you have a good material, but small area, it clogs quickly....temps go up.

The best setup uses a quality filter material, with the largest possible area. Not an easy setup on most computers....


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