What cooling method do you prefer?

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:52 pm

bottom intakes would also be a plus for me. That is where the coldest air is. But leave room for a filter!

P.S. thanks for asking us.

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:17 pm

bondiablo wrote:Here's a mid tower case similar to your server case, no door though and the PSU is at the top but all 5.25" external bays including a double sized filtered intake bay that can be moved to any of the front bay locations.

http://www.lian-li.com/product.php?acti ... prdid=1123

http://www.lian-li.com/index_1.htm

It even has "One noise reduction PSU ventiduct include"... Seems that it has some bottom vents too.

1398342003, most of us here agree that top blow holes let the noise escape from the inside. So they are generally not a good idea.

I've thought of bottom fans, but You'd have to have some dampening under the case (or just more space than 2") to prevent noise from ricocheting from the floor underneath the case. Still, as I have Antec 1030B, which has front-open fan mounts, I tend to think that bottom fan mounts would be a better idea noise-wise for me. I'd really like to have two 120 mm fans pushing cold air in.

I really like the idea in the Lian-Li case where the HD cage placement is adjustable (or, You can simply leave it off, and build a custom mount easily because there is mount points (the 5.25" bays)), and with the right construction could really dampen the noise from the HDs.

Cheers,

Jan

1398342003 · Post by **1398342003** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:33 pm

The sound from the top fans can be reduced substancially with thicker dampening, just like with any other side's blowhole. I have found it very easy to dampen in my case.

Now it has additional dampening on the top and bottom, and the psu/top fan's muffler is a bit larger.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:23 am

I really dislike tiny cases, I want plenty of room to work and good expansion options, so for me a full tower is the smallest case I'd even look at.

For my current project, I'm using a 'server cube' style case (AMS CK1100) in part because I'm watercooling and can use the room, and secondly I find towers get tippy when they start getting tall and heavily loaded.

I voted for steel, and 120mm in/out fans, but would also include the proviso that the fans are blowing THROUGH a radiator - otherwise it's a bit on the overkill side.

Secondly, I mentioned watercooling - A case with GOOD watercooling capability built in could be a hot item with both the silent and the modding crowds. Currently there are few if any such cases, and they are VERY expensive, and not very good from a WC standpoint. It is a market niche in which there is currently little competition, whereas from where I sit, there are LOTS of choices in air cooled cases.

IMHO a watercooling case should have a BIG radiator with low air and water flow restrictions, preferably a single pass unit. Automotive heater core style radiators seem the best design of this sort The core should have MINIMUM 1/2" barbs on it, or larger threaded holes that a customer can install the non restrictive barb of his choice in. The radiator (and all metal cooling system components) should be made from Copper and / or Brass, NOT aluminum - mixing metals is a bad thing, and most good blocks are made from copper.

If you choose to put in (or sell as options) any additional plumbing it would be nice if you could add a reseviour, and a pump w/ plumbing tying it all together, but only if the pump is a GOOD quality, high flow / high head pressure model, and the plumbing is non restrictive. (I wouldn't try to do WB's other than as options, just give the user an easy way to hook into what is already there.)

The fans (or mounting for same) should be capable of moving LOTS of air through the rad w/ minimal obstruction, but there should be a filter (such as used on an air conditioner??) on the intake side of the rad to keep it from getting clogged w/ dust.

It would be optimal if the rad was either mounted on the case exhaust or ducted it's exhaust air out of the case w/o blowing it over the other components. The ultimate has outside air being pulled through the rad and ducted out of the case w/o ever going through it. This would minimize (but not eliminate) the need for extra cooling flow through the case.

Other than prefering a big case, and wanting built in watercooling, I agree with most of the other sentiments expressed in the thread.

In terms of appearance, I don't really care, at least not to the point where I would pay extra for it. I'm sure you'll want your products to look nice, but IMHO function is preferable to fancy.

Whether you listen to me or not, I appreciate your company taking the effort to ask our opinions.

Gooserider

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:22 am

I really like 1398's case design except for the front stamped grills, as it would seem to let more of a direct sound path out, then back only intakes. Also it would be nice if the bottom intakes were a little closer to the middle of the case so one blows up on the video card and the other blows up on the hardrive. Im not sure if the top blow holes would allow enough air through out as ive never tryed this before. Also an added benefit of the drawn case about would be that you could add a bodong duct or similar to duct air straight to the cpu from the bottom intake of the case.

Noiseblocker · Post by **Noiseblocker** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:41 am

We've thought about mounting the fans in the bottom but it will create too much turbulence due to the case clearance with the floor. The idea of leaving a 2" gap between case and floor seems good, however we will have to see how it really perfoms in real life. Will air turbulence be substancially reduced?

Perhaps a prototype can prove how well will it perform.

1398342003 · Post by **1398342003** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:17 am

I really like 1398's case design except for the front stamped grills, as it would seem to let more of a direct sound path out, then back only intakes. Also it would be nice if the bottom intakes were a little closer to the middle of the case so one blows up on the video card and the other blows up on the hardrive. Im not sure if the top blow holes would allow enough air through out as ive never tryed this before. Also an added benefit of the drawn case about would be that you could add a bodong duct or similar to duct air straight to the cpu from the bottom intake of the case.

The fans can be moved, and the stamped grills are to keep out rats.

I said stamped because they are relatively easy to make. What would you use?

In the drawing I got lazy and copy pasted the fans, but just for you I'll change it. The top fans are in the same situation as the bottom ones.

What would be interesting is if a case like this became popular with the OC and Mod communities.

futureweaver · Post by **futureweaver** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:56 am

I'm noticing that the poll distinguishes between steel and ali cases. As far as I know there's no engineering reason for ali cases as far as cooling goes. Convective cooling from the case exterior, and temp gradients within the skin material, are of no significance unless you do something like put fins on it. Even then you'd need internals that got the heat to the skin.

So I'm wondering why the Noiseblocker guys made this distinction in the poll, since the question they asked was about engineering not appearance.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:59 am

i guess people make think steel is heavier it may dampen vibrations?

I prefer Aluminum because i don't break my back every time i lift a case.

futureweaver · Post by **futureweaver** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:02 am

DryFire wrote:I prefer Aluminum because i don't break my back every time i lift a case.

Well that's a good reason, but it's nothing to do with cooling - of the PC, anyhow. Presumably with a steel case you'd install liquid cooling for yourself

.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:58 am

futureweaver wrote:I'm noticing that the poll distinguishes between steel and ali cases. As far as I know there's no engineering reason for ali cases as far as cooling goes. Convective cooling from the case exterior, and temp gradients within the skin material, are of no significance unless you do something like put fins on it. Even then you'd need internals that got the heat to the skin.

So I'm wondering why the Noiseblocker guys made this distinction in the poll, since the question they asked was about engineering not appearance.

A lot of the ricers want aluminum because it's "cooler" than a steel case. You know, the "TypeR" syndrome

. Then of course there's the LAN guys who just like having an aluminum case of the light weight. I suppose the Noiseblocker folks wanted to see how big a market segment also exists for an aluminum case here at SPCR, regardless of it's actual "performance".

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:01 pm

If you've ever had to move a couple of steel cases at once you'll know why i prefer al. but i wouldn't total give up the idea of owning a steel case.

my sister's midtower steel case weighs like 2x more then my full tower al case.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:22 pm

a well made steel case is cheaper than a well made aluminum one. And 1398 I meant that I wouldnt have front intakes at all, just the rear one, and perhaps a way to remove the bottom dampening box for cleaning purposes.

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:47 pm

Ralf - "ricers"??

Noiseblocker · Post by **Noiseblocker** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:33 pm

Sorry for the confusion, but the Steel vs Aluminum is to compare not only quality or design, but price...

some people are just not willing to pay the extra for the aluminum.

Post by **Rusty075** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:58 pm

MikeC wrote:Ralf - "ricers"??

Oh come on Mike, you're showing your age.

Did you see Fast and the Furious? Those were ricers. Souped up import cars, the muscle cars for the X generation. Well, sorta like muscle cars, only with more emphasis on looking fast rather than being fast, and louder stereos.

1398342003 · Post by **1398342003** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:47 pm

GamingGod wrote:a well made steel case is cheaper than a well made aluminum one. And 1398 I meant that I wouldnt have front intakes at all, just the rear one, and perhaps a way to remove the bottom dampening box for cleaning purposes.

I see what you mean about the intakes now. That would be easy to change.

Here

I would recommend this case to be about 8" wide, and to make the top fan/PSU dampener as wide as the case.
I also recommend easily removable dampener for the door for to optical drives. It should be removable for baybusses.

I would like the case to be like the monolith from 2001. Jet black and smooth.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:49 am

Ok now that is a beautiful design 1398, and Its exactly like the one I was thinking of in my head. Id love to see a review on a prototype of it, I dont have the money or time to build one right now though.

The only thing im worried about is the rear powersupply dampener fin, only because I dont know if it will hurt airflow. Oh and also the door should be metal, well built, and allow for a baybus and also room to contain dampening material. I agree that the lian li 6070 would be a good case to base the overall look, only make it Black.

dago · Post by **dago** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 2:54 am

(sorry for 'raw' comment, but I apparently can't make nice one like halcyon or mike, hope the idea get throught)

Maybe a little bit off topic, but another idea for a case would be to avoid the "external 5"1/4" bay, because that's the only thing (maybe the power/reset uttons) that have to be accessible by the user ... and they are mostly sitting idle, with no idle noise (don't need a fan to cool an optical drive).

It'll give more possibilities to make a better closed box sitting under the desk.

That's what i'm doing in my cases (and why I like doors), having an external 4 bay scsi box.

You can also do it with firewire or USB2 parts ... or maybe SATA will give more cable lenght ... or just plain IDE extension cable.

Apart from that, I'd prefer to have the PSU in its own tunnel, completely separated from the MBoard/CPU stuff (see G5 'wind tunnels' ideas).

Maybe at the bottom (because they tend to be the noisiest part in my pc, so the farer the better)

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:01 am

Rusty075 wrote:
MikeC wrote:Ralf - "ricers"??
Oh come on Mike, you're showing your age.

Did you see Fast and the Furious? Those were ricers. Souped up import cars, the muscle cars for the X generation. Well, sorta like muscle cars, only with more emphasis on looking fast rather than being fast, and louder stereos.

Think of the guy that puts a "TypeR" sticker on anything that he want to make faster. That's a ricer.

Think Thermaltake Xaser. That's rice.

Think of a case full of windows and lights in every fan and even the PSU. Everything inside the case painted with UV paint. That's rice.

Function Follows Form. That's rice.

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:44 am

ricer - got it. And never saw that move. You think I have time to get out with SPCR?

Lots of good case ideas here. One question I have to ask is whether Intel & others in the industry are working on a case form factor beyond ATX. AT lasted some 10 years, maybe more, before ATX came in. ATX is now ~10 years, right? Seems time for a replacement.

I'm scheduled to stop in at the Intel Developer Forum (IDF) in San Jose for a day next month. I'll see if I can find anyone to answer this question. Meanwhile, email inquiries to www.formfactors.org may be worthwhile.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:21 am

Isn't there a watx form factor aswell for workstation type boxes?

ATX is holding up very well i mean how many PCI slots do you need?

but how about you suggest they place the cpu tawords the bottom for cooler air?

1398342003 · Post by **1398342003** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:42 am

Even if my designed case costs $300C I'll still buy it. I've already fallen in love with it.

If it does go production, please use high quality foam. I don't want my design to suck or anything.

WATX is basically a flipped motherboard, and maybe a bottom mounted PSU.

About the PSU dampener: It's designed to be 3" by 8" for a total of 24" square area at the thinnest point. And I also agree about the all metal door, I would like the entire case to be metal if possible.

Zhentar · Post by **Zhentar** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:56 am

One other thing- don't include a PSU. It will avoid the problem of paying for something you really don't want.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:34 pm

i second zhentar's opinion.

1398342003 · Post by **1398342003** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 4:17 pm

I third that.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:26 am

I'll make it official: No included PSU please.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:47 am

DryFire wrote:Isn't there a watx form factor aswell for workstation type boxes? ATX is holding up very well i mean how many PCI slots do you need? but how about you suggest they place the cpu tawords the bottom for cooler air?

It's not about how many PCI slots -- it's about the basic geometry, cooling & airflow setup of the ATX case.

Intel did reply & they are working on an ATX replacement:

Hello Mike,

Currently we are working on a new form factor codenamed "Bigwater". It was announced at last years Intel Developers Forum. This is intended to replace ATX eventually in the next few years. Yes, ATX is approaching a 10 year anniversary which is quite good, but you are right, there are some limitations with ATX that are technically and economically too difficult to resolve. The public design spec is to be released in about 2 months. I expect that it will be posted on FF.org.

There is a session on BIGWATER at the Sept IDF, which I will try my best to attend & report on. It's related to TIDEWATER, which was Intel's dev code for a sff case -- link can be found in the article Intel's Quiet PC Tips on the main SPCR site.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:25 pm

that next gen fan idea looks cool. do you have any design/specs on a prototype?

futureweaver · Post by **futureweaver** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:28 am

Apparently Bigwater will use 3GIO, now called PCI Express.

What cooling method do you prefer?

Most effective intake/exhaust fan combination?

SLightly different take...