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 Post subject: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:15 am 
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On page 5, the overview states «typical size is 15" x 15" x 8"» for mATX, but most recommended cases aren't in this size.

It would be really helpful if you'd include the sizes in the table format.

I'm looking for a *silent* (from 1m) case that fits in an (open) cabinet, for a 45W CPU. I'd love to find a case that gets rid of the useless 5.25" bays.

Thanks!

David


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:17 am 
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Welcome to SPCR.

On page 5 of what article?

What's the rest of your build? gfx card, drives? If you scope out the component list, we can provide some recommendations.

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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:42 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Welcome to SPCR.

On page 5 of what article?

What's the rest of your build? gfx card, drives? If you scope out the component list, we can provide some recommendations.


oh sorry, I thought this forum linked, it's http://www.silentpcreview.com/Case_Basi ... mendations

and thanks. I want to build a home workstation/server which will be on 24/7. I'm in a small loft so it has to be absolutely silent from > 1m away, except under terminal conditions (everything heavily loaded). I'm agonizing between a Xeon E3 (with IGP but I might upgrade that later) and E5 V3 build, either microATX or ATX but I'd like it to be less than 13" in any dimension so it can fit in a cabinet I have, though it can be up to 15" deep. I would like a 65W or less CPU but economics on the E5 would make that difficult (some of my jobs /may/ require more than 32GB RAM, which only the E5 supports, along with many threads and because it's a mixed workload GHz are helpful too). I need a Xeon with ECC because some of my jobs run for long periods of time and I don't want the system to lock up or have a flipped bit, something I experienced with a 3770T with 32GB non-ECC.

For drives, it will have 1 or 2 2.5" SSDs and probably one 3.5" HGST Coolspin 4TB. Graphics card, either none (E3) or something like the Strix 750TI (passive < 50°).

I'm currently nearly decided to go with no case until a case comes along with no 5.25" drives and not too many drive bays in general, which would make it much smaller. I'm impressed by http://www.nzxt.com/product/detail/151- ... -case.html but it's still a bit too big. I don't mind spending more on the case and make it a showcase cause after all computers are a large part of my life, but I don't want anything gaudy or at all compromising on sound. Maybe I'll get the wall mounted case when it comes out. (=

For completeness, here's what pricing looks like (I'm in Canada):

E3 @ $1006:
C226M WS 199
E3-1265L V3 (45W) 338
Silverstone ST30SF SFX 300W 59
32gb ECC 410
$1006

E5 @ $1465:
ASRock X99 Extreme4 (ATX) 268
E5-2620V3 (85W) 477
4X8GB CT8G4RFS4213 440
psu 60
fan 60
strix 750 160

There is also a low power E5 for $250 more, but I already need storage and I wanted to keep the entire build inexpensive.

I'm not 100% on the PSU either, this one is hedging on a small case.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:12 pm 
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Can't you put it behind, next to or on top of the cabinet?
ATX itself is 9.6" x 12", getting awfully close to your 13".
mATX is 9.6", but stack a ATX PSU on top and you're over 13" as well.

What about the mATX http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-v352/?
It's 16" long.
Most of the time compact cases compromise on noise / airflow though.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Olaf van der Spek wrote:
Can't you put it behind, next to or on top of the cabinet?
ATX itself is 9.6" x 12", getting awfully close to your 13".
mATX is 9.6", but stack a ATX PSU on top and you're over 13" as well.

What about the mATX http://www.lian-li.com/en/dt_portfolio/pc-v352/?
It's 16" long.
Most of the time compact cases compromise on noise / airflow though.


I really want it out of sight (or else actually nice to look at) given it's an open space.

Fractal Design Node 804 seems like one of the smaller designed cases, but I think I will go with no case until I see the perfect one. With a great CPU cooler there should be no noise past 1m, excluding the HDD.

Thanks for your comments!


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Another question for you: Can you better describe the 13"x13"x15" (WxHxD) space? This could be a killer for airflow-> high heat-> high noise, so it'll limit the case possibilities. Is it open in front and back? Is there any venting on the sides/top/bottom?

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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:06 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Another question for you: Can you better describe the 13"x13"x15" (WxHxD) space? This could be a killer for airflow-> high heat-> high noise, so it'll limit the case possibilities. Is it open in front and back? Is there any venting on the sides/top/bottom?


it's basically those dimensions, open at the back, I'll close it at the front, made out of solid wood (part of a shelf system). Though I may replace it longer term, or get a case if I have to or I find one I like.

On another note, I realized the low voltage e3 xeon I wanted isn't available to consumers, so I'll be stuck with an 84w chip. I will probably start with the stock fan which may be ok with PWM under normal conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:25 pm 
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Yep, pretty limited selection for your use case. If you can cram the 13.5" wide Fractal 804 into your 13" wide space, go for it. :) I like the front to back air flow...although the front fans may be starved for air. Otherwise, the feature set is nice. Another case that will fit is the Silverstone Sugo SG10. Here's a review of it's brother with the uglier fascia, the SG09. Stock fans aren't down to a level I'd like, though...

CPU cooler: the stock cooler for i5 and i7 is utter crap. Fairly quiet, but piss poor cooling. YMMV with the Xeon's box cooler.

gpu: STRIX cooler will only come on during 3D workloads (like gaming or GPGPU tasks). If you do neither of these things, and you don't need the 'Ti's horsepower, you could drop to a lesser passive card.

mobo: yeah, the number of X99 uATX boards is slim. Your Asrock looks decent.

psu: Figure stressed (CPU +GPU) load of under 200W assuming GTX750 Ti. Figure out the case and then we can determine the PSU.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:33 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Yep, pretty limited selection for your use case. If you can cram the 13.5" wide Fractal 804 into your 13" wide space, go for it. :) I like the front to back air flow...although the front fans may be starved for air. Otherwise, the feature set is nice. Another case that will fit is the Silverstone Sugo SG10. Here's a review of it's brother with the uglier fascia, the SG09. Stock fans aren't down to a level I'd like, though...

CPU cooler: the stock cooler for i5 and i7 is utter crap. Fairly quiet, but piss poor cooling. YMMV with the Xeon's box cooler.

gpu: STRIX cooler will only come on during 3D workloads (like gaming or GPGPU tasks). If you do neither of these things, and you don't need the 'Ti's horsepower, you could drop to a lesser passive card.

mobo: yeah, the number of X99 uATX boards is slim. Your Asrock looks decent.

psu: Figure stressed (CPU +GPU) load of under 200W assuming GTX750 Ti. Figure out the case and then we can determine the PSU.


ok, you're right about the the cabinet, but I can use a double width compartment. But I really don't want a hulking case, and I don't expect to have more than a few drives.

For the graphics card this is basically my do-everything system so it will be used for the occasional messing around with WebGL, perhaps GPUGPU, and 3D explorations. But I may not get a discrete card, the 84W E3's have Intel HD Graphics P4600 which would be adequate for most tasks, or next year I could upgrade to one of the expected socket-compatible GT3e chips. http://wccftech.com/intel-xeon-e31200-v ... -pipeline/

I've read about Intel's HSFs and consensus is they aren't great at cooling as you say, but the chip will be running within spec (in a server they run at high temps for years without issue) so I'm mostly concerned about noise, though lockups would be a serious nightmare. I'm willing to try the Intel cooler then switch if required to save $60. I'm thinking of adding an M.2 drive since it would speed up some of my tasks (one basically involves importing Wikipedia as step one), but I've read they generate a lot of heat. May go two SSDs in RAID0 instead.

That Sugo case is nice! Do you think it could be made completely silent from 1m (or less, ideally past 30cm) under normal load? It would have to be sideways in a compartment, but there'd be enough space to baffle it. Right now I'm using a notebook in the cabinet and its fans are on but I can't hear them at any distance. The same outcome here would be fantastic.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:45 pm 
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There are quieter 120mm fans than those in the Sugo. But, the 180mm fan is the dominant one. I haven't tracked these..maybe someone else can pipe up and suggest a better one.

stock cpu cooler: You can give it a shot. I tested it on my i5 and didn't like the temps. The CPU thermally throttled when running Prime 95.

SSD in RAID0: Not sure I see a benefit...do you really have tasks that can make use of this bandwidth?

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:38 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
SSD in RAID0: Not sure I see a benefit...do you really have tasks that can make use of this bandwidth?


I think so, at least occasionally. When importing large language processing sets or multiple data intensive tasks at the same time it will make a difference, particularly if I don't go the > 32GB RAM option. I do a lot of software and VM building and if it makes something that's done dozens of times a day perceptually faster that's a big win.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:06 pm 
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I can't speak to the intensity of the multiple tasks. Maybe it'll saturate.

Importing data won't...Sequential write speeds for current gen mainstream SSDs are ~500MByte/sec. LAN is usually Gigabit, so the max is 125MByte/s, actual throughput will be less.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:29 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I can't speak to the intensity of the multiple tasks. Maybe it'll saturate.

Importing data won't...Sequential write speeds for current gen mainstream SSDs are ~500MByte/sec. LAN is usually Gigabit, so the max is 125MByte/s, actual throughput will be less.


I mean importing from the local hard disk into an application. For example a current data set is 20GB. It becomes CPU bound.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:39 am 
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nos wrote:
I mean importing from the local hard disk into an application. For example a current data set is 20GB. It becomes CPU bound.

If by local hard disk, you mean the SSD, then ok. :D

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:43 am 
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It's done! I finally ordered it. It usually doesn't take this much agonizing.

I decided to start off without a case, that will help me tune it, but will probably get that Sugo.

Here's the parts list: http://ca.pcpartpicker.com/p/phLLjX

I have another 850 pro for RAID0.

pcparts claims the RAM isn't compatible, but Crucial says it is.

I'm a little concerned the power supply may be underpowered under full load with a couple more hard disks.

I can probably do any swaps before the order is assembled so thoughts appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:25 am 
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Asrock only shows one 16GB ECC RAM module in the mobo's QVL and it's Samsung. Upside is they tested a 16GB ECC RAM, downside - it isn't yours. :D You could ask Asrock tech support. $450 for RAM!!

PSU: should be fine. Your stressed load power with the components shown is under 200W and your probable work load is in the 150W range. The only time the HDDs need a LOT of amperage is when spinning up, typically at boot.

Spending $450 on RAM and then going cheap on the CPU cooler is a bit skewed. I would have spent another $20 and gone for the Scythe Kotetsu.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:44 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Asrock only shows one 16GB ECC RAM module in the mobo's QVL and it's Samsung. Upside is they tested a 16GB ECC RAM, downside - it isn't yours. :D You could ask Asrock tech support. $450 for RAM!!


I couldn't find ASRock's RAM anywhere. Before I ordered the Crucial RAM I checked their validator which said it's compatible. I've just double checked and they say it is 'guaranteed compatible' (though temporarily out of stock on their site), so I have some recourse.

$450 is the lowest price I could find for 2X16GB DDR4 ECC from a good company. Sure it's $100 - $150 or so more than other options but the peace of mind is worth it long term.

CA_Steve wrote:
Spending $450 on RAM and then going cheap on the CPU cooler is a bit skewed. I would have spent another $20 and gone for the Scythe Kotetsu.


I honestly got the Cooler Master model out of exasperation. I have put so many hours into researching this build, it has gotten ridiculous, and I need to order it in this tax year. I wanted to get the Mugen 4 and numerous other models, but they were all out of stock. The model you linked is out of stock as well everywhere I've checked (I'm in Canada). What I got is nothing special but seems like a safe choice. I can replace the fan if need be or just replace the whole thing at a loss, but now I can get my life back from this agonizing process. (if incompatibilities don't pop up)

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:47 am 
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I've been reading some reviews of the 212 Evo on a 2011-3 socket and it seems it may have issues where the mounting breaks and a screw gets stuck in the motherboard. http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.as ... 6835103099

Given I can't find your suggested model, do you have any other suggestions? It has to be potentially silent from 5' (while on, hah hah), and I would also prefer something compact. I was hoping to not go down this rabbit hole again, and also buy from the same shop (Newegg.ca) for support issues. Would http://forums.ncix.ca/products/index.php?sku=67626 be a good choice?


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:44 am 
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The be quiet! Shadow Rock Slim would be a better choice. Looks like it's at a very reasonable price at NCIX.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:49 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
The be quiet! Shadow Rock Slim would be a better choice. Looks like it's at a very reasonable price at NCIX.


Perfect, order changed. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:17 pm 
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So my workstation is finally built. I got a bit spastic in the end, since I needed to use it for the weekend. NCIX wasn't shipping the HSF nor replying to my email after a day so I ordered a somewhat overpriced NH-U12 S from Amazon next-day. It's all running caseless now, inaudible from more than a few feet, CPU cores less than 30° at moderate load. In fact I think the HSF is serious overkill for the 85W CPU. I also downgraded the video card to a passive Radeon 6450, I'll look for something that supports virtualization and a 4k display next year. Also keeping an eye out for well priced Sugo SG10s or other interesting small cases. Thanks for your help!


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Enjoy your build :)

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1050 Ti Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Which 6450 did you get?


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Olaf van der Spek wrote:
Which 6450 did you get?


Asus HD6450-SL-2GD3-L

Since I was being a bit spastic at the end it was maybe not the best choice even for short term since it seems to get pretty hot doing not much, so I may exchange it.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Might want to grab GPU-z and see what's going on, temp-wise and clock rates.

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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:23 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Might want to grab GPU-z and see what's going on, temp-wise and clock rates.


I run Linux but I can see from the sensors it's running at 58° idle. I'll maybe look into options later. The reason I was originally going to get the GTX 750 is it runs passively at 50° which is presumably its normal operating temperature.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:31 am 
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nos wrote:
Olaf van der Spek wrote:
Which 6450 did you get?


Asus HD6450-SL-2GD3-L

Since I was being a bit spastic at the end it was maybe not the best choice even for short term since it seems to get pretty hot doing not much, so I may exchange it.

Is it any good? I think I had another 6450 (with a 32-bit memory interface) but even at the desktop it appeared to be slow. Replaced it with a 6570.


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 Post subject: Re: On Micro-ATX
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Olaf van der Spek wrote:
Is it any good? I think I had another 6450 (with a 32-bit memory interface) but even at the desktop it appeared to be slow. Replaced it with a 6570.


I have mainly been using it for desktop purposes (browsers, shells, etc) which are hardly tasking. I tried a WebGL app and it was slow. I've read some reviews and it's apparently pretty miserable for anything past basic 2D. So since I do want it to be capable for the occasional 3D excursion I'm keeping an eye out for something to replace it with, ideally before the end of January so I can return this one. I might go with the Sapphire Radeon Ultimate R7 250, which is another passive Radeon but with GDDR5 RAM compared to this one's GDDR3, though it just has 1GB and I might want something more capable for an anticipated 4K display in the new year. I may want to use PCI pass-through (VT-D) where I understand Radeon cards are more compatible so I've been sticking with them so far, though my original choice was a Maxwell series GTX card which can support passive operation at normal temperatures.


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