In search of an quiet Sonata (in progress) Comment?

Enclosures and acoustic damping to help quiet them.

Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Devonavar

Post Reply
buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

In search of an quiet Sonata (in progress) Comment?

Post by buzzlightyear » Sat Nov 22, 2003 11:54 am

I have been testing different configurations in search of the quietest Sonata. This is what I have so far, using package foam and duct tape for prototype and an addtional 12cm Panaflo 12G12M1LX fan.

Components:

Asus P4G8X Deluxe
Intel P4 1.8g hz (no OC)
Pioneer A05 DVD-R drive
Samsung CD (oem drive)
2x 256 DDR 266mhz
ATI Radeon 9500 (not OC'ed) with Zalman Passive heatpipe Cooling kit
WD 200GB SE
WD 120GB SE
Another WD 180GB (soon)

The very first thing I noticed was the Antec logo holes let out the higher-pitch sound from the HDs. That have to be covered. So in the decending order, in term of noise subjectively, these are the configurations:

Config 1

Antec logo holes covered.
Antec exhaust fan runs at 1400 rpm (fan only connector)
With HDD fan mounted on a “sealed” HDD cage using foam and duct tape -- 12mm Panaflo FBA12g12m1BX running at 1000 rpm
HS fan at 1400 rpm
PSU and front bezel not modded

Idle Loaded (runs 3dmark03 once)
CPU 42C 48C
MOBO 25C 28C
HDD Room temperature Slightly warm (30C guessing)

Config 2

Antec logo holes covered.
Antec exhaust fan run at 1400 rpm (fan only connector)
With HDD fan mounted on the existing holes-- 12mm Panaflo FBA12g12m1BX - running at 1000 rpm
HS fan at 1400 rpm
PSU and front bezel not modded

Idle Loaded
CPU 42C 48C
MOBO 25C 28C
HDD Slightly warm (30C guessing) Slightly warm (30C guessing)


Config 3 (no modd at all)

Antec logo holes covered.
Antec exhaust fan runs at 1400 rpm (fan only connector)
HS fan at 1400 rpm
Not HDD fan
PSU and front bezel not modded

Idle Loaded
CPU 42C 48C
MOBO 27C 28C
HDD Slightly warm (30C guessing) Hot, (40C guessing)

Config 4

Antec logo holes covered.
Ducted CPU fan from the Exhaust fan (stopped but left in place)
With HDD fan, sealed HDD cage -- 12mm Panaflo FBA12g12m1BX running at 1000 rpm
HS fan at 1400 rpm
PSU and front bezel not modded

Idle Loaded
CPU 40C 46C
MOBO 27C 29C
HDD Room temperature Slightly warm (30C guessing)

Conclusions thus far:

1) a 4-fan arrangement is always noiser than a 3-fan arragement.

2) The addtional HDD fan helps cool off the HDs a lot, especially when the HDD cage is sealed to force the fan to suck to cold air through the front bezel. It also help cool of the MOBO and the Zalman VGA cooler.

3) The "sealed" HDD cage covers up a lot of HDD seek noise as well as the constant humming sound.

4) The configuration # 4-- Ducted CPU HS/fan to the rear exhaust fan (not runnigng), and HDD fan mounted on a sealed HDD cage setup-- produces the least noise, the coolest CPU, but warmer MOBO temperatture because the air flow is messed up. In fact the case became positive pressured. due to a 12cm intake and a 8cm exhaust (PSU) fan arrangement. Opening a 5 1/4 drive plate would help.

Because of the relatively nosily drives I have, I am inclined to investigate configuraton #4 further.

Sorry about the long post, comment??

chylld
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by chylld » Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:53 pm

I would:

swap out the PSU fan for a panaflo 80L
make airflow mods to the front bezel (ask Tom Brown)
cancel your order for that 3rd WD hdd...

you're going to be limited in your success if you go about things the way you are atm. try to tackle the problem at the source (i.e. the hdd's).

also i think a 120mm at the front is overkill - a 92mm is usually more than enough.

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:20 pm

You are right on the that. I need to attack the source of the problem -- the HDD.

Also, I need to replace the PSU fan anyway. the stock fan start chirping like a cricket randomly.

I was just experimenting a way to eliminate a fan and yet be able to cool the HDD effectively, hence, the HDD fan mounted on a "sealed HDD cage" idea. This is an idea I learned from the ARS forum.

Please keep the comments coming!

chylld
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by chylld » Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:33 pm

what exactly do you mean by a "sealed HDD cage"? it sounds interesting...

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:29 pm

The "sealed" HDD cage idea came from ffieroboy's modd posted at Ars Openforum. With the 3700AMB, the front HDD fan is at the entrance of the intake, that is not the case with Sonata. In order to have the fan sitting on the other side of the HDDs and suck air in from outside, the HDD cage has to be sealed on all sides except the front bezel side. So you can tape up all cracks and holes on all sides (except the front) with duct tape and/or package foam. I use a 1 1/2' thick foam to mount the fan further away from the existing mounting plate/hole so the metal drive cage would not block the air flow. But the idea is just the same-- to suck air from outside and bring the air across the HDDs. The side benenfit of a "sealed" HDD cage is the higher frequency sound from the HDDs are pretty much blocked as well. Now I have to deal with the vibration of the HDDs.

Then I went one step further and start toying with the idea of eliminating the use of exhuast fan by duct air from the rear to the CPU.

This is when I am at this moment. And so far, it is the quietest setup I have found. Because the rear fan is not on, and the HDD fan is mounted in the middle of the case, the computer is bascially making low humming sound. However the PSU fan cannot exit the air fast enough, creating a positive pressured case. The temperature of the MOBO is up too. Hey, but the temperature of the CPU is down, and the HDDs are ice cold. Two out of three so far.

I may try to adjust the PSU and the HDD (the only intake) fan speed to achieve some kind of balanced air flow.

Right now, at idle with room temperature at 22C, the PCU is at 41C (CPU fan @ 1400 rpm), Mobo @ 28C, and HDD at pretty much room temperature (My WD drives do not report temperature through S.M.A.R.T). That is not bad.

chylld
Posts: 1413
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Post by chylld » Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:41 pm

a low humming sound... probably the fans? have you decoupled the hdd fan yet?

also i'm not sure if its such a good idea to use the exhaust vent like that, intaking air for the system. by all means, if it works well, then don't change it :) , but i'd be inclined to keep the exhaust vent as an exhaust vent since it'll help the psu fan out a bit (apparently they work better when they're running in parallel)

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:45 pm

I understand that using the HDD fan as the only intake fan (not counting the intake from the ducted CPU fan) is NOT conventional or recommended. With the ducted CPU fan, blocking the exit path for the air, it is not good for the air flow at all. That is why the mobo temperature went up from 25 to 28C at idle. But it is the quietest setup I'd found so far.

BTW, the HDD fan in my prototype is press-fitted into a 1 1/2' thick foam. And the foam is duct-taped on the HDD cage. I'd say the fan is fairly decoupled from the chassis. The humming noise is most likely coming from the two WD drives.

Also I have the Panaflo 12G12m fan, not the quieter 12G12L version.

Just I'd said, I was just experimenting.
Last edited by buzzlightyear on Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spacey
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:31 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Post by spacey » Sat Nov 22, 2003 9:30 pm

good post, could we see pictures perhaps of this "sealing" you speak of?

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:29 am

Will post some pictures as soon as I can dig out my digicam later. These pictures will hurt your eyes because the setup is still a prototype and I use whatever scraps I can find. You may even call the fire department on me.

Edit: Had problem posting hosted pictures.

Image

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:37 pm

Had problems posting hosted pictures. Here are the links to the ugly pictures of my ongoing prototype.

Started working on the HDD idea after reading Ralf Hutter's concern of higher HDD temperature with the Antec case using sideway HDD cage. I shared the same concern especially I have 3 WD el cheapo drives that run hot. Since there is no room to add intake fan at the entrance. I decided to tested the idea of sucking air in from the Antec-provided HDD fan location through a "sealed" HDD cage (not sealed at the front of course). First I taped up the gap between the HDD cage and the floppy drive.

http://www.pbase.com/image/23564313

Then I routed all the power cables through just one slot and jammed a piece of close-cell foam in. Then taped up the rest of the holes. Now, you have a "sealed" HDD cage.

http://www.pbase.com/image/23564314

For now, I press-fitted a Panaflo 12G12M1BX fan into a piece of package foam and taped the whole thing onto the HDD cage. There is 1" space between the fan and the metal cage, increasing the airflow. Added foam to seal the gap between the HDD cage and the case cover. I added 2-100ohm resistor in parallel to undervolted the fan to around 5v (or 1000 RPM).

http://www.pbase.com/image/23564339

Making very little noise because its midship location, the fan cooled off the HDDs to barely warm to touch. The HDD noise also got cut down as well.

Then I toyed with the idea of eliminating the rear fan by ducting it to the CPU fan. That lowered the CPU temperature to 40C idle and 48c loaded. With both Antec logo holes covered, now I have a very quiet system before modding the HDD trays. Also the side benenifit is the graphic card is cool because it is right next to the fan. Now the bad part. The air flow clearly is messed up because there was not big enough exit path for the air. The mobo temperature went up to 27c idle and 28-30 loaded.

http://www.pbase.com/image/23564830

I may give up on the ideal of ducting the CPU fan and try to undervolted the rear fan to around 800 rpm (if possible) instead. Of course, a shim for the HDD fan needed to be constructed if I were to leave this setup in there. Don't want to set the computer on fire or worse. And, there are the humming HDDs that needed modd.

Comments???

grandpa_boris
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:45 am
Location: CA

Post by grandpa_boris » Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:56 pm

buzzlightyear wrote:Comments???
the motherboard temperature of 30'C wouldn't worry me at all. how far is it above ambient? if not very far, then why worry?

i probably don't understand your ducting set up. is the fan sucking air throught he heatsink and pushing it out of the case? if so, then it doubles as your case fan. if it's managing a 48'C loaded (loaded how?) and is quiet enough for you, what else do you want to change and why?

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:11 pm

Without ducting and with both rear fan (1400rpm) and the HDD fan (1000 rpm) on sealed HDD cage, there are the readings:

Idle Loaded (runs 3dmark03 once)
CPU 42C 48C
MOBO 25C 28C
HDD Room temperature Slightly warm (30C guessing)


With ducting (air blowing into the HS), and just the HDD fan on sealed HDD cage. I got:

Idle Loaded (runs 3dmark03 once)
CPU 40C 48C
MOBO 27-28C 29-30C
HDD Room temperature Slightly warm (30C guessing)

The room temperature is 22C.

So the tradoff, with ducted CPU fan, seems to be 1-2 lower CPU temp, but 3-4C higher mobo temp. Of course, a quieter system without the rear fan.

lenny
Patron of SPCR
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 10:50 am
Location: Somewhere out there

Post by lenny » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:22 pm

I'm just venturing a guess here on why your MB temp went up. It looks like the plastic duct for the CPU fan is partially blocking the northbridge heat sink. The sensor may be somewhere around there.

I saw that post on Ars as well. I thought of using melamine foam to cover up the holes (esp. the huge one below the fan) hoping that it would also add some noise absorption in addition to improving airflow. I did dremel away the plastic sub-bezel and air intake opening, but I didn't feel like cutting away the metal.

This case still hasn't seen a motherboard yet, so don't ask me how's noise and temperature :-) I intend to install the melamine foam and dampening material before I get around to collecting all the parts for my next great system.

buzzlightyear
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

Post by buzzlightyear » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:07 pm

Lenny:

I think you're right about the duct blocking the Northbridge HS, may be even the temperature sensor. I'd removed a 5 1/4 drive blank and it DID NOT lower the mobo temperature at all. So I think you're right.

Overall, despite the air flow inbalance problem (casued by 12cm HDD +9cm CPU intake fans but only 8cm PSU exhuast fan) , the overall result is much better than I thought. The HDDs are cool, the CPU is cool, the passively cooled graphic card is cool, and the mobo temperature is at 30C under loaded (run 3Dmark03). And it is quiet with how humming noise and some seek noises from the HDDs. That is not bad.

I may tried to reverse the CPU fan direction so it will suck the air out instead. But I'd read somewhere that the Zalman cooler was meant to have fan blowing into the HS.

If I go with this setup, I would make the CPU duct as small as possible to improve the airflow inside the case. I would make a 3/4' thick shim made out of foam for the 12cm HDD fan instead. Then replace the PSU fan with a Panaflo 8cm fan, open up the front bezel and find a way to attack the HDD noise problem.

BTW, that $7 roofing tape helps a lot in reducing the vibration.

Well, anyone have ideas to reduce the HDD noise?

Post Reply