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 Post subject: Folding Machine on the cheap?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Just thought of this, in case anyone was interested. I was perusing e-bay and Hard-OCP for sale by owner threads. You could probably get a motherboard, memory, and an athlon 64 for under 100 bones if you wanted another box to fold with. I saw Athlon 64s going for ~20, and motherboards about the same. I might be doing this in the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Nah, 2 things:

1. You get way fewer points than a duelie.
2. The points you get are way more expensive, you used more electricity.

There are places that will give you equipment, older hardware with the understanding you use it to fold. But why?

You want the world's cheapest duelie, which I tried to address in a few threads right here:

Basic duelie:
$57 AMD 4000+
$48 Gigabyte 6100 mobo
$15 or less 2*512 sticks of DDR2-800 CAS 4 (I've seen it for $10 after rebate)
$20 Once again, Antec EA380
$15 A Patriot 2GB HS USB Stick
This nets you about 1000 ppd.


A few changes will assure a 3 GB OC:
$70 A Corsair VX450
$12 Perhaps an Artic Cooling 64 for AMD
Consider an upgrade to DDR2-1066 or get 800 than can get up there with the extra voltage.

From what I've seen memory speed seems to be very significant when folding. So the question becomes are you better off getting a Black Edition for $75 more than a 4000+, or spend the money on upgraded cooling and RAM? I love these kind of predicaments. 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:42 am 
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In light of the current era of multi-SMP folding I'd like to make the case for budget quad core folders in the points per day per watt equation.

My stock Q6600 machine (which doubles as a file server hence 9 HDDs, a RAID card and several Nexi 120mm at 9v) produces almost exactly 3,000ppd under Vista 64 all for just under 200w measured at the wall.
(I had to run the Q6600 at stock Vcore to achieve 100% stability so this figure is a bit higher than I previously stated).

In comparison my test stock X2-4400+ AM2 65nm Brisbane is barely managing 850ppd for ~100w measured at the wall.

So, if you could run a stripped down Q6600 under some flavour of Linux64 with a pair of SMPs running you could achieve well over 3,000ppd for in the region of only 150w.

Admittedly a Q6600 will initially cost your more than an X2 but a budget G31 style mobo and 2GB of DDR2 is hardly expensive nowadays and you'll get far higher ppd and so a much greater folding efficency.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:27 pm 
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Hi, cd8uk.

You've clearly taken considerable pains to achieve economical high-yield folding.

Let me be a bit forward and suggest that your knowledge could perhaps be of considerable value if you were to distill it to a "cookbook" and post "How to get 3000PPD on a Q6600".

That posting would surely be worthy of being a sticky so it remains easy to find, and perhaps it would incite readers to build fast machines and give you some minor competition while you continue to trounce all the other SPCR folders....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:27 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
Nah, 2 things:

1. You get way fewer points than a duelie.
2. The points you get are way more expensive, you used more electricity.

There are places that will give you equipment, older hardware with the understanding you use it to fold. But why?

You want the world's cheapest duelie, which I tried to address in a few threads right here:

Basic duelie:
$57 AMD 4000+
$48 Gigabyte 6100 mobo
$15 or less 2*512 sticks of DDR2-800 CAS 4 (I've seen it for $10 after rebate)
$20 Once again, Antec EA380
$15 A Patriot 2GB HS USB Stick
This nets you about 1000 ppd.


A few changes will assure a 3 GB OC:
$70 A Corsair VX450
$12 Perhaps an Artic Cooling 64 for AMD
Consider an upgrade to DDR2-1066 or get 800 than can get up there with the extra voltage.

From what I've seen memory speed seems to be very significant when folding. So the question becomes are you better off getting a Black Edition for $75 more than a 4000+, or spend the money on upgraded cooling and RAM? I love these kind of predicaments. 8)


Another idea, if you want good power consumption to folding ratio, is to buy a T2300 off of eBay - I've seen them for as low as $30 - and get a AOpen i945GTt-VFA mini-ITX - $102 shipped as mentioned here. A little more expensive ($30 or so), but the processor uses less than half the power of the 4000+ (29W versus 65W or 89W if the 90nm part) with only slightly slower performance.

-D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:00 pm 
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OK so even more interesting:

$ 85 Biostar 770 mobo, Phenom capable.
$240 Phenom
$100 DDR2-1066 of some sort, 2GB
$ 85 Corsair VX550
$ 60 WD SATA HD
$ 40 video card of some sort
$ 60 Cooling

Anyone folding with a Phenom yet?

Added - From what I have seen the difference between an AMD and an Intel quad would be about $100, the total difference split between the cpu and the motherboard. Still, I want to see specs of a Phenom folding.

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 Post subject: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:07 am 
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Quote:
Project 2653 Phenom X4 Agena 255.33 PPD/GHZ


Now admittedly, this doesn't tell us how many watts the machines are taking, but it does give the guideline that you get more PPD/GHZ/$ for a C2D rig than a Phenom. And given the upcoming C2D/C2Q price relationship, the imbalance in favour of Intel will increase. Which makes me sad, because I too used to be an AMD fan.


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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:57 pm 
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Dutchmm wrote:
Quote:
Project 2653 Phenom X4 Agena 255.33 PPD/GHZ


Now admittedly, this doesn't tell us how many watts the machines are taking, but it does give the guideline that you get more PPD/GHZ/$ for a C2D rig than a Phenom. And given the upcoming C2D/C2Q price relationship, the imbalance in favour of Intel will increase. Which makes me sad, because I too used to be an AMD fan.


I don't understand... :(
255 PPD/GHz will surely be on a PC which doesn't fold 24/7? Pity fahinfo.org doesn't provide this info...

I get about 1000 PPD with an X2 5200+, 2.6 GHz, which results in 384 PPD/GHz. Or is there more to calculating this number?


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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:24 pm 
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spookmineer wrote:
I get about 1000 PPD with an X2 5200+, 2.6 GHz, which results in 384 PPD/GHz. Or is there more to calculating this number?


I believe I get about 1082 ppd on a 4000+ running at 2.4GHz with Ubuntu.

Why don't you run CPU-Z and see what speed your memory is running at. See my OC thread to understand why it would differ from what you actually set it for.

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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Dutchmm wrote:
Quote:
Project 2653 Phenom X4 Agena 255.33 PPD/GHZ


Now admittedly, this doesn't tell us how many watts the machines are taking, but it does give the guideline that you get more PPD/GHZ/$ for a C2D rig than a Phenom. And given the upcoming C2D/C2Q price relationship, the imbalance in favour of Intel will increase. Which makes me sad, because I too used to be an AMD fan.


I won't hestitate in saying I have no idea what that stat signifies.

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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:30 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
I get about 1000 PPD with an X2 5200+, 2.6 GHz, which results in 384 PPD/GHz. Or is there more to calculating this number?


I believe I get about 1082 ppd on a 4000+ running at 2.4GHz with Ubuntu.

Why don't you run CPU-Z and see what speed your memory is running at. See my OC thread to understand why it would differ from what you actually set it for.


Actually I just changed the memory settings last week to 4-4-4-12-2T (according to manufacturer's spec), while before it was at 5-5-5-15-2T (auto in BIOS). There has been no change in PPD.

The CPU runs at 2.6 GHz and memory at 371 MHz, increasing FSB to 216 would result in the proper 800 MHz memory and CPU at 2.8 GHz.
I'll experiment with that this weekend, still a bit worried about temps while still being quiet enough (although you said in the other thread the CPU temp doesn't really increase from an increased FSB).
Since I started folding, I had to increase fan speed from 600 RPM (mostly idle ofcourse) to 800 RPM.
I think I can only get a real FAH increase by upping the FSB (and therefor the GPU clock speed, which seems to be most important). In this case, about 7.5% but it's better then nothing.

Maybe you getting such good results with a 4000+ (even topping mine heheh) is for a big part because of using Ubuntu instead of Windows? (I will not switch though...)

----------

Slightly OT: because of another windows update this week, my PC rebooted, and FAH lost valuable hours of folding (password). Is there any way to "hold" the windows updates from installing and rebooting the PC until I say it can do so?


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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:05 pm 
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spookmineer wrote:
Actually I just changed the memory settings last week to 4-4-4-12-2T (according to manufacturer's spec), while before it was at 5-5-5-15-2T (auto in BIOS). There has been no change in PPD.

Try setting it to 1T. 8) That's interesting because because before I had some DDR2-667 memory rated at 5-3-3-15. It made it up to about DDR2-800. So I did the +1 bit and set it to 6-4-4-18 and it made it up to DDR2-900 and then it quit. So it does make a difference.

spookmineer wrote:
....I'll experiment with that this weekend, still a bit worried about temps while still being quiet enough (although you said in the other thread the CPU temp doesn't really increase from an increased FSB).

My other 4000+ is up to 2.9 GHz. It's still not much warmer, if at all, using a hand test. I love the Biostar 7050-M2, even the NB never gets warm.

spookmineer wrote:
...I think I can only get a real FAH increase by upping the FSB (and therefor the GPU clock speed, which seems to be most important). In this case, about 7.5% but it's better then nothing.

I took significant hits when I slowed memory down and increased FSB, it drove me crazy. Is that right? Why increase GPU speed?

spookmineer wrote:
...Maybe you getting such good results with a 4000+ (even topping mine heheh) is for a big part because of using Ubuntu instead of Windows? (I will not switch though...)

Oh absolutely, as my Windows PC at 2.9GHz is no faster, perhaps even slower, than my Ubuntu pc. This also drives me crazy.


spookmineer wrote:
Slightly OT: because of another windows update this week, my PC rebooted, and FAH lost valuable hours of folding (password). Is there any way to "hold" the windows updates from installing and rebooting the PC until I say it can do so?

There's an option to turn off auto updates. I never auto update. I want to see what it's going to install, and I want to reboot only when I want, not if and when it feels like it. So my pc's, even the Ubuntu, notify me of updates, and I install updates perhaps twice a month. In the case of my C2D pc I even have to stop overclocking to install updates correctly. Several Vista programs do not run correctly, including MS Update while OC'd, but Prime 95 shows no errors so I attribute the problem to poor MS code, as usual.

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 Post subject: Re: FAH Info to the rescue ....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:22 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
Actually I just changed the memory settings last week to 4-4-4-12-2T (according to manufacturer's spec), while before it was at 5-5-5-15-2T (auto in BIOS). There has been no change in PPD.

Try setting it to 1T. 8) That's interesting because because before I had some DDR2-667 memory rated at 5-3-3-15. It made it up to about DDR2-800. So I did the +1 bit and set it to 6-4-4-18 and it made it up to DDR2-900 and then it quit. So it does make a difference.


Yes I know :?
I've read an article (which I can't seem to find) about how memory timings are crucial in AMD PC's. Not sure if my RAM will run without glitches with 1T but I'll try that too.
From what you're saying, the command rate is more important then close times of RAS-CAS etc?

aristide1 wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
...I think I can only get a real FAH increase by upping the FSB (and therefor the GPU clock speed, which seems to be most important). In this case, about 7.5% but it's better then nothing.

I took significant hits when I slowed memory down and increased FSB, it drove me crazy. Is that right? Why increase GPU speed?


A typo on my part... Meant increase of CPU speed ofcourse...
By decreasing memory I think you just mean the frequency? If I can run the CPU at 2.8 instead of 2.6 GHz, and get the memory at specced 800 (instead of 2*371) MHz in the process by upping the FSB it's a win-win situation for me.

I think I will soon lose my mind trying to get the optimum setting...

aristide1 wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
Slightly OT: because of another windows update this week, my PC rebooted, and FAH lost valuable hours of folding (password). Is there any way to "hold" the windows updates from installing and rebooting the PC until I say it can do so?

There's an option to turn off auto updates. I never auto update. I want to see what it's going to install, and I want to reboot only when I want, not if and when it feels like it. So my pc's, even the Ubuntu, notify me of updates, and I install updates perhaps twice a month. In the case of my C2D pc I even have to stop overclocking to install updates correctly. Several Vista programs do not run correctly, including MS Update while OC'd, but Prime 95 shows no errors so I attribute the problem to poor MS code, as usual.


Found where I could set "download but not install until I say so" :P
I'm still hooked to Windows because I play games regularly, and Linux games support is said to perform less then Windows's DX (that, and I still am worried about installing another OS even when so many people say you don't have to - I've had too many F ups in the past).
Default setting for update installs is apparently at 3 PM so I didn't lose that many hours of folding.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
Found where I could set "download but not install until I say so"

I knew you would. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:55 am 
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The subtle overclock seems to be stable.
CPU temp went up 2 °C, NB temp (I know... which temp...) went up 4 °C.

PPD seems to be only related to the increase in CPU speed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:52 pm 
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I almost feel like spending money on Sanda Lite benchmarks. I don't see any popular ones for free.

Is there a Black Edition in my future :?: Hmmmmm.

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