Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

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idum
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Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Tue May 26, 2015 11:56 am

Hi all. I'm trying to build my perfect "budget" machine but, really, i'm in difficult.

My needings are simple: a machine for mostly programming ( so a couple of virtual machines), casual gaming, media watching :)

My first priority is the noise elimination. My first problem is the budget, very low (around 500-600€ for all the components, excluding monitor, S.O. and dvd).

My first idea was to start with AMD 7800 or 7850: it give me a entry-level integrated GPU that can be enough for my gaming, a good power, some overclocking features (but, well, it is a future "whynot" not a priority), low power needing, hoping that it means less money and less noise when i have to select the PSU.

16GB red Vengeange memory modules, and a micro atx motherboard to be selected, a good Crucial mx100 250GB ssd and a case to be selected. My machine it is almost made.

But. Some people discouraged me to take a amd 7800 (7850) and go to FX8350, due the 8-cores and better multi-core functionalities, but this means to add a graphic cards ( more money, more noise, more energy demand). And, obviusly, people told me "why not an Intel?". And i'm going totally out my budget.

So, the question: my initial idea is so bad?

quest_for_silence
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue May 26, 2015 2:21 pm

Where are you from? Local pricing do matter.

quest_for_silence
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue May 26, 2015 3:44 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Where are you from? Local pricing do matter.
Checked: Italy.

Are you going to overclock the APU?

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue May 26, 2015 4:24 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Are you going to overclock the APU?
Whether you're going to:

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Tue May 26, 2015 11:10 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Where are you from? Local pricing do matter.
Hi Luca. Italy.

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Tue May 26, 2015 11:18 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:Are you going to overclock the APU?
Whether you're going to:
Thanks a lot for the configuration Luca, very appreciated :) but i have some questions.

1) Why do you choice 7850K instead of 7800? edit: i see, for overclocking. MMh it is an option, overclocking, indeed.
2) i would select a micro-atx or mini-itx building option. You have proposed me mid-tower pieces and ATX mainboard, why? for better noise reduction?

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue May 26, 2015 11:58 pm

idum wrote:1) Why do you choice 7850K instead of 7800? edit: i see, for overclocking. MMh it is an option, overclocking, indeed.

With tight budget, if you aren't in hurry, you can think to buy used parts (at least the mobo+CPU combo, maybe the GPU: I'm thinking to Sandy or Ivy quads).

idum wrote:2) i would select a micro-atx or mini-itx building option. You have proposed me mid-tower pieces and ATX mainboard, why? for better noise reduction?

Because performance, noise, dimensions and price are all parts of the same equation: you can't squeeze the dimensions without sacrificing the other ones. Which could be your trade off?

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Wed May 27, 2015 1:12 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
idum wrote:1) Why do you choice 7850K instead of 7800? edit: i see, for overclocking. MMh it is an option, overclocking, indeed.

With tight budget, if you aren't in hurry, you can think to buy used parts (at least the mobo+CPU combo, maybe the GPU: I'm thinking to Sandy or Ivy quads).
What are you telling me? better used intel platform than a new AMD cpu+gpu?
This is a point i need to understand because i see lot of good 78xx CPUs reviews, but when i give a look at general configurations i see almost all i5.
Is AMD so bad? it is better taking an used i5 and an used GPU than a 7850k? even if you have a source of noise as the GPU and you probably spend more (and perhaps consume more, but for this point i'm not sure..).

And what can be the right used CPU+GPU choice?
quest_for_silence wrote:
idum wrote:2) i would select a micro-atx or mini-itx building option. You have proposed me mid-tower pieces and ATX mainboard, why? for better noise reduction?

Because performance, noise, dimensions and price are all parts of the same equation: you can't squeeze the dimensions without sacrificing the other ones. Which could be your trade off?
Well, i thought that a smaller case (if it is not so small) means also better air circulation e better heat management.

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed May 27, 2015 2:55 am

idum wrote:What are you telling me? better used intel platform than a new AMD cpu+gpu?

Performance wise, yes. AMD is enough performing for most of nowadays tasks, but it's not competitive with Intel offering since at least six years ago.

If you're going for new parts, an AMD A10 may offer a better GPU than a Core i3 (though not that better than an old HD6570), so it can make sense when on tight budget but need more than two cores (as for VMs). If you don't need more than 2 cores, then a Pentium G3258 and a discrete graphics may be a valuable (IMO probably better) option than an A10-7800.

idum wrote:This is a point i need to understand because i see lot of good 78xx CPUs reviews, but when i give a look at general configurations i see almost all i5.

I don't see such good reviews on AMD A10-7800 (or 7850K at stock):

As said, they're enough, but not enough to be competitive with Intel offering.

idum wrote:And what can be the right used CPU+GPU choice?

Money wise probably I'd look for a Sandy/Ivy quad and an XFX DD 7770 or a GTX 650Ti (either a MSI Cyclone or an ASUS DC-II "long body"). For more gaming "oomph" either an XFX DD 7850 or an ASUS GTX660 DC-II "long body", but price goes higher.

idum wrote:Well, i thought that a smaller case (if it is not so small) means also better air circulation e better heat management.
I didn't ask that: I asked which corner you are willing to cut, to reduce the case footprint (increase the noise levels, decrease the performance, increase the cost).

Said that, broadly speaking your assumption has been proven rather wrong, even better, it's an oversimplification which doesn't work in most of occurences: broadly speaking in a quiet system the parts tend to run hotter than normal, so "all other things equal" a larger volume tends to work noticeably better than a smaller one.
Last edited by quest_for_silence on Wed May 27, 2015 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Wed May 27, 2015 4:37 am

Well, you push me in the hell, indeed...

Now i don't know what to do.
My budget is very low. As you see, it is enough for to build a good AMD platform. But i'm not sure that i can build a good pc with the same budget and with Intel platform, even in the used-items market. The G3258 is a good idea, but in my routine i have at least a virtual machine always active, and this means that probably i need more than 2 cores. Actually i'm working with my notebook that have an i5 and it is going good, using 4 cores (2 for the vm, 2 for windows).

...sigh..

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by CA_Steve » Wed May 27, 2015 6:28 am

FYI, Intel marketing fun: The mobile i5 is a 2 core 4 thread processor. The desktop i3 is a 2 core 4 thread processor.

Regarding laptop: if it's going good, the lowest cost solution is to get an external keyboard, mouse and monitor to turn your laptop into a desktop.

To put things in perspective, wander through Anandtech's Bench and compare CPUs. For most things, an i3 compares to an AMD A10.

quest_for_silence
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed May 27, 2015 7:08 am

If you have nothing to blame to your current notebook, but the overall noise level, I guess you won't be disappointed by the AMD APU's desktop: actually a notebook Core i5 is roughly equivalent to a desktop Core i3, it doesn't have four cores, but it's an hyperthreaded dual core CPU (two cores, four threads).

So, summarizing, providing your notebook doesn't sport an high end mobile GPU, the overall performance of the proposed APU-based desktop is more than enough, so that there's no need to look for more performance (like the one offered by a desktop Core i5 and a discrete graphics).

Now, if you want to build a system which has a footprint as close as possible to a notebook's one, well, you have to do some trade offs.

Basically, the more the openings on a case, the more are the noise sources. So, it's desiderable to have not so many and not so ample (as it is on the Antec P-70/VSP-5000). But the less the openings, the less the airflow, so the hotter the system run. When a system run hot you can either speed up the fans, or accept the temp penalties (at least up to the thermal throttling). The major drawbacks are: you can't control the PSU fan, so, when temp rises, it speeds up automatically; then, that the increased heat will likely shorten the parts lifespan, though in a not easily predictable matter.

Due to the large air volume to be heated, a larger system is generally more resilient to heating than a smaller one, so it can accept some more energy (heat) without sacrificing the overall noise level the same way a smaller enclosures may require.
Squeezing the system dimensions somehow reduces this "capacity": up to some degree, you can use different, more efficient parts, but often increasing the overall cost; anyway, broadly speaking either you need a more vented enclosure, so increasing the noise sources, or you have to reduce the heat, and so the computing power. Or both.

Now, for those APUs I don't know many enough robust (I mean, with heathsinked and thermally protected VRMs) mATX FM2+ boards, maybe a couple of them, so likely you may think to drop any OC and use instead a 65W A10-7800. Another issue is the appropriate enclosure: the ones likely suitable, either costs much more than the quoted Antec (like the Fractal Design Node 304), or they need replacing fans as the stock ones may not be up to the task (low overall noise). Or eventually both.

A possible setup may be:


With reference to the previous one, this config is much smaller: it's also slightly less powerful, not overclockable and not less expensive. Moreover it may probably need a quieter front fan, but it's a tricky question: though it's well possible you can use a good 140mm fan, cooling wise, you might be forced to buy something like the Silverstone AP182, and such a fan is rather expensive, pushing the overall cost close to the 650€ mark.

Now I think it's up to your call.
Last edited by quest_for_silence on Wed May 27, 2015 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Wed May 27, 2015 8:08 am

CA_Steve wrote:FYI, Intel marketing fun: The mobile i5 is a 2 core 4 thread processor. The desktop i3 is a 2 core 4 thread processor.

Regarding laptop: if it's going good, the lowest cost solution is to get an external keyboard, mouse and monitor to turn your laptop into a desktop.

To put things in perspective, wander through Anandtech's Bench and compare CPUs. For most things, an i3 compares to an AMD A10.
I'm using my laptop with external stuff and it is a good platform, but actually is very uncomfortable take it, grab off all the wires, go to the office, link in with the other keyboard, mouse, monitor, this every time i need to move myself.

Idea is to create something better for one of my main working/living place.

Also, it would be nice have the chance to play at something...

About the 2 core/4 threads, for the scope of programming it can be considered 4 cores, i think.

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Wed May 27, 2015 8:16 am

@Luca,

really thanks for your answers. You give me something to think about.

Well, i have to compare AMD solution with a "natural" solution: an i5, a not so powerful GPU and the stuff.

I have to consider how much money i have to add at my budget..

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed May 27, 2015 2:12 pm

For the fun of it, a mITX variant:


N.B.: please take note that even the previous post setup is a mITX one but with a wrong mobo (an ASUS mATX instead than the Gigabyte mITX), so the total amount should be about 30€ higher than how much there indicated (the expected price should be around 630€).

quest_for_silence
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu May 28, 2015 3:03 am

quest_for_silence wrote:N.B.: please take note that even the previous post setup is a mITX one but with a wrong mobo (an ASUS mATX instead than the Gigabyte mITX), so the total amount should be about 30€ higher than how much there indicated (the expected price should be around 630€).
As a due correction, a "true" mATX possible setup could be:


Incidentally the price is even lower than the "wrong" one, while the overall volume is slightly larger than mITX/Core V1's one: cooling is likely inferior (due to the closed front panel), and you might need a new pair of case fan (rather than stock Antec ones).

That's all: have fun! :wink:

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Sun May 31, 2015 2:25 am

idum wrote:Well, i have to compare AMD solution with a "natural" solution: an i5, a not so powerful GPU and the stuff.


JFYI: http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/ ... eview/1905

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Sun May 31, 2015 2:22 pm

Ty for your work. I understand the point. a fainless r7 250 GPU costs 90€ and an i3 4150 (or the 4160 don't know what is better) is around 120€ where the A10 7800 is around 130€ (and 6800k 120€, or perhaps an A8 7600 at 100€).

So i have muck more with 80+€ in the budget, (that is around the 15%). How is this "more"? in general use, i don't think there is a consistent difference. Matters of seconds in a working day, when i use standard Rails programming, virtual machines, and not so deep calculus routines. I have around 20% more power with i3 (very approximately) in global benchmarks, so in special routines: editing, photoshop, etc, i will obtain this advantage. Are that special routines part of my normal-day-use? not at all.

Gaming. Now the question is: an A10 or the A8 and a i3 with a r7 250 are so differents in gaming?

I think that, probably, the best solution is to push 200€ in the budget and take an i5 and a good GPU but, if one cannot use 50% more budget, i'm not sure to put away AMD

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:55 am

idum wrote:Gaming. Now the question is: an A10 or the A8 and a i3 with a r7 250 are so differents in gaming?

Look for your favourite games benchmarks: as a rule of thumb anything with a min framerate around 30 should be good (I mean, for the so called "casual" or "light" gaming).

With reference to initial cost of acquistion an AMD APU is cost effective, does the job for the least amount of money, I mean that's its main (and only) strenght (otherwise it's not easily upgradeable, it's not power efficient, and so on).

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:58 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
idum wrote:Gaming. Now the question is: an A10 or the A8 and a i3 with a r7 250 are so differents in gaming?

Look for your favourite games benchmarks: as a rule of thumb anything with a min framerate around 30 should be good (I mean, for the so called "casual" or "light" gaming).

With reference to initial cost of acquistion an AMD APU is cost effective, does the job for the least amount of money, I mean that's its main (and only) strenght (otherwise it's not easily upgradeable, it's not power efficient, and so on).
Hi again. I've made all the path around the circle and i'm returning here with lot of dubts...
I know it is a classic "short blanket" situation: with my budget i cannot do a good pc and AMD is sort of incomplete solution: if you go on Fm2+ you have "not enough" on all demands: not enough cores, not enough igpu power, not enough efficiency. You have only a good price, and you know, if you want some wine, water have a good price and is fantastic for thirst but it is not an answer.
This is the way for ultraeconomic pc, so if i decide for that, i will take my old m-atx box, my old milox 480W power supply and make a "transitory" machine hoping in a better future.

if you go on Am3+ you don't find good m-axt motherboards, you will be into a dead-road with potential future upgradings, it can be very good for the 8-cores (that can be useful for my main activity, programming), but you have to spend for external gpu.

So i have to evaluate an i5 configuration, limit the RAM at 8GB and put into the game a r7 260 but i don't know how to start.
Can you help me?

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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:51 pm

idum wrote:So i have to evaluate an i5 configuration, limit the RAM at 8GB and put into the game a r7 260 but i don't know how to start.
Can you help me?

How might I help you?
First of all, currently I don't think an Fm2 solution is a "not enough" one (given that you're working on a dual core laptop).
Then, in order to fit a tight budget, I adviced you to look at second hand market (eBay, classifieds/flea markets) for some used Core i5 (Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge) and mobo, in case (ideally a good deal could be finding such a combo for about 120-150 euros: so, in case, you need time and patience).

idum
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Re: Silent pc for programming / general pourpose

Post by idum » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:02 am

Ok, stop to dubts.
I've ordered the a10 7850k, an Asus a88xm-plus, G.Skill 2400 8Gbram and crucial ssd mx100 256Gb with a total cost of 345€ (using friendly vendor).

For this first step i will use my old box case and my old power supply and test the noise and the overall setup.

Thanks for the help :)

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