Would You Get A Mac?

[NoahJ]

sthayashi,

I would be interested to see what you think. I am sure that the response will not be too good, but would be interested to see if your dim view of Macs improves or not. Of course, the model of machine and version of OS would be interesting to know as well.

[joecuba]

At the end of the day, I think most people would be happy with a middle - to - top end Mac OR (well built) PC... I think they will both do most jobs very well indeed.

One reason (probably the main one) for me NOT buying a Mac is the whole thing is closed. Windows PC is open hardware, closed software. Linux is open hardware, open software. Mac is closed hardware, closed software.

When I first bought my OWN PC 4 years ago, I did make a decision between Mac and PC. PC won because of the price and the openness.

[sthayashi]

We shall see.

Like I said, the decision is not mine to make, nor will it be made any time in the immediate future. We're talking later this year, like August or September, and it'll almost certainly be a laptop. It also won't strictly be mine either, so who knows? In short, it's not my money or my decision, so it's ownership will not be mine. But I'll have access to it.

Taking a quick look at the Apple website and knowing the sum of money involved, it would either be a low end PowerBook or a high end iBook.

[Ichiban_jay]

Though if you were to customize the pc so that it has comparible features as that on an apple computer (photo software, music software, movie software, dvd software, etc etc) with hardware items that do not usually come standard on a personal computer (bluetooth, firewire, weighing less then 5 pounds, etc etc) the costs are pretty much equal. I tried this with dell's laptops. Like a magazine writer wrote, though the pc is cheap in the beginning, most users find themsleves spending hundreds of additional dollars over time to bring the computer up to their standards. that is, in the long run, you spend more money then it would to just buy an apple.

Also, this may be flying back a bit, but viruses on Mac OSX is highly unprobable, because of a simple yet effective feature. To install anything, or change the operating system's files, the computer demands for an administrators password. Therefore a virus would be stumped right then and there, not knowing your password, it cannot do any harm. I wonder why no one brought this up?

[alcimedes]

Therefore a virus would be stumped right then and there, not knowing your password, it cannot do any harm. I wonder why no one brought this up?

well, for a virus to spread it requires user intervention. users are stupid enough to get a program/file from someone, open it and actually enter their password to install it.

don't ask me why, i can't explain it, but it's true. i've seen it many, many times.

where OSX and Linux do have a big advantage though is the worm department. those are the ones that spread w/o user intervention. in 20 minutes a worm can infect millions of machines. on a windows machine, you run as root/admin and don't need to enter a password to do anything. therefore a security hole opens up a much bigger problem than on your standard *nix.

of course, worms are also the really dangerous ones. your AV definitions probably won't have anything for a day or two, and if there isn't a patch out, a firewall is your only hope as a PC user. of course, if the virus decides to hit port 80, you're still pretty much toast.

[sthayashi]

Though if you were to customize the pc so that it has comparible features as that on an apple computer (photo software, music software, movie software, dvd software, etc etc) with hardware items that do not usually come standard on a personal computer (bluetooth, firewire, weighing less then 5 pounds, etc etc) the costs are pretty much equal. I tried this with dell's laptops. Like a magazine writer wrote, though the pc is cheap in the beginning, most users find themsleves spending hundreds of additional dollars over time to bring the computer up to their standards. that is, in the long run, you spend more money then it would to just buy an apple.

Eh, not entirely. Never underestimate a cheap bastard like me. Most of the software that I use is free and they are nearly as powerful as the more expensive versions. You'd have to be doing some pretty advanced things in order to need the expensive software over the cheaper stuff and that's rarely the case with most people. A lot of people can get by with XnView, the Gimp, Audacity, and VirtualDubMod pretty easily (I don't really know of any GOOD DVD software. Maybe Media Player Classic, but I don't know if it's native or not).

So that brings you down to making the hardware the same. Again, this is not always necessary. Example: I've never used a firewire device and I've been getting by just fine, so there'd really be no reason for me to get a firewire card. Now I'm not saying it's a bad technology and I know that there are a lot of people who use it. But I would argue that few people ever use every last hardware detail that's standard in a Mac, so why pay for something you don't need? This can also help to reduce the costs a bit. And what with a lot of stuff starting come on board due to a cutthroat motherboard market, a lot of PCs are having these hardware features built-in. When that's applied, a LOT of money can be saved.

But I suppose if you're trying to make it as equal to a Mac in everyway possible, the costs will be comparable at least, if not greater (since I'm not familiar with OSX, I don't know what's included). Especially with 23" LCD displays .

Also, this may be flying back a bit, but viruses on Mac OSX is highly unprobable, because of a simple yet effective feature. To install anything, or change the operating system's files, the computer demands for an administrators password. Therefore a virus would be stumped right then and there, not knowing your password, it cannot do any harm. I wonder why no one brought this up?

To quote a character from the movie Snatch, "Never underestimate the predictibility of stupidity." Nigerian Email scams HAVE fooled a fair number of people, and that's a LOT of personal information to give out. It'd would be relatively easy to convince people to put in their admin password.

"Apple has found a security hole in OSX and they're distributing a security update to fix it. It has been attached in this email. Please run it. You may be required to enter an administrator password, so be sure you're authorized to do so." Now that seems pretty darn obvious to you and me that you shouldn't open and install it, but there ARE people naive enough to fall for this.

[Sailfish]

You mean like a Beowolf cluster?

So basically, it IS a Beowolf cluster, but with an encrypted filing system.

From the documentation

• Xgrid is a new suite of Mac OS X applications developed by the Advanced Computation Group at Apple. Our research initiative has been intended to aid academic and industrial sites that require general clustering, farming, or distribution solutions; the Xgrid suite of applications is a manifestation of that intent. • Xgrid has been designed to enable administrators to group locally networked computers into clusters and allow users on the network to remotely submit long-running computations to the clusters.

Filevault a Mac OS X feature to encrypt one's user folder on the fly.

X-Grid is intended to be used at off times at offices and labs and has a built in screen saver. It kicks in and it's ready for the grid.

When I get my x-serve I can pair that up with my G5 and basically get 8Ghz. I get another X-serve it goes up to 12Ghz and so on, all available from my computer.

Of course this is new, so we should be seeing software developers taking advantage of this over time, especally for large rendering projects, maybe even a new rash of games.

[Bluebeetle69]

Quote
"One reason (probably the main one) for me NOT buying a Mac is the whole thing is closed"

" Mac is closed hardware, closed software".

I would agree that the hardware is closed, but the software has more in common with Linux than Windows being based on open source "BSD"

It's open core is called "Darwin" and you can download it for free here.

http://developer.apple.com/darwin/

The developer tools (Xcode) come free with OSX.

If you follow the link below you will find that a lot projects included in OSX (GNU X11) etc

http://www.apple.com/opensource/

There are thousands of Apps being ported from Linux to OSX

If you wish you can order a Mac with Yellow Dog on it and not void your warranty (this is what the Navy use on their X servers)

[joecuba]

Sorry, yeh, i should have said closed OPERATING SYSTEM.

Sure, the core is open, but how is it that Apple charge people for each incremental update to the O/S? You think most people are going to download the core and build it themselves? I doubt it. I wouldn't call any Mac O/S open. OSX core, yeh, the operating system, no.

Anyway, the discussion will never convince the Mac users that PC can be better, and the PC users that Mac can be better. Not only is it a circular argument, but it's a pointless one as well.

[sthayashi]

From the documentation

• Xgrid is a new suite of Mac OS X applications developed by the Advanced Computation Group at Apple. Our research initiative has been intended to aid academic and industrial sites that require general clustering, farming, or distribution solutions; the Xgrid suite of applications is a manifestation of that intent. • Xgrid has been designed to enable administrators to group locally networked computers into clusters and allow users on the network to remotely submit long-running computations to the clusters.

What is a Beowulf?

It's a kind of high-performance massively parallel computer built
primarily out of commodity hardware components, running a free-software
operating system like Linux or FreeBSD, interconnected by a private
high-speed network. It consists of a cluster of PCs or workstations
dedicated to running high-performance computing tasks. The nodes in
the cluster don't sit on people's desks; they are dedicated to running
cluster jobs. It is usually connected to the outside world through
only a single node.

Sounds suspiciously similar to Xgrid. Except that Beowulf has been around long before OSX.

Filevault a Mac OS X feature to encrypt one's user folder on the fly.

I've been well aware of that since the start of the flame war. Do you know what an encrypted filing system is? Again, it's not precisely the same thing, but fairly similar.

X-Grid is intended to be used at off times at offices and labs and has a built in screen saver. It kicks in and it's ready for the grid.

When I get my x-serve I can pair that up with my G5 and basically get 8Ghz. I get another X-serve it goes up to 12Ghz and so on, all available from my computer.

You just keep believing that. The rest of the multiprocessing world will smile and know better.

Of course this is new, so we should be seeing software developers taking advantage of this over time, especally for large rendering projects, maybe even a new rash of games.

I kind of doubt it. Multi-threaded programming is very difficult. Multiprocessor (non-shared memory) can be just as difficult. Pentium 4's have had hyperthreading for sometime now. SMP has been around for even longer. I don't think Xgrid will change anything except to finally give Mac programmers a chance to do what Linux and BSD programmers could do for years.

[Bluebeetle69]

Apple charge people for each incremental update to the O/S?

They don't

I have yet to pay for ANY update.
I started off with 10.3.0 then updated for free to 10.3.1 then updated again for FREE to 10.3.2.
10.3.3 is out in a few weeks and it will be free

10.4 (out next year is not an incremental increase) and will cost in the same way MS charges for Win98-Win Me-Xp-Longhorn etc

OSX (pronounced TEN) wont be called OSXI at the next paid update
BTW i use PCs too and don't expect to get longhorn for free

[joecuba]

Stop being pedantic.

Mac made users PAY FOR THE UPDATE from 10.1 to 10.2 AND 10.2 to 10.3

This is incremental in my book.

Also, even Macophiles admit that the first versions were nothing better than public betas.

Microsoft don't charge for service pack updates, only for full scale O/S updates. M$, for all their sins, don't try and screw customers for basic updates to their O/S like Mac do.

[Bluebeetle69]

I'll stop being pedantic when you stop being obtuse!!
look Mac OS went Os 7 to Os8 to Os9 to 10.0 to 10.1 to 10.2 to 10.3

Microsoft went

win 3.11 to win 95 to win 98 to win 98se to win me to win xp

just because Apple now use a different numbering system doesn't mean they are point increases!!!

what if you call their Os "OS X to OSX I to OSX II etc as is the way with Roman numerals would that make a difference to your perceptions??

The Beta issue you mention was the original OSX 10.0 and Apple let everyone download OSX 10.15 for free because it was so slow

[Bluebeetle69]

Microsoft don't charge for service pack updates, only for full scale O/S updates. M$, for all their sins, don't try and screw customers for basic updates to their O/S like Mac do.

PATHETIC

Do you think Apple charge for service packs??

Basic Updates my arse!! ignorance is not clever little boy

And don't think I'm a crazed Maclot as I own 3 PC's and 2 Macs
I just think "closed minds" such as yours are a waste

people with limited knowledge of computing such as yourself should do some research BEFORE answering

10.2 is a different OS from 10.3 just as Win98 was from Win98SE

I shall not be posting again so save yourself the trouble of replying

[aphonos]

Microsoft don't charge for service pack updates, only for full scale O/S updates. M$, for all their sins, don't try and screw customers for basic updates to their O/S like Mac do.

PATHETIC

Do you think Apple charge for service packs??

Basic Updates my arse!! ignorance is not clever little boy

And don't think I'm a crazed Maclot as I own 3 PC's and 2 Macs
I just think "closed minds" such as yours are a waste

people with limited knowledge of computing such as yourself should do some research BEFORE answering

10.2 is a different OS from 10.3 just as Win98 was from Win98SE

I shall not be posting again so save yourself the trouble of replying

Tweeeeeeet! Five-yard penalty (free kick for non-US footballers) for personal attacks. Ummmm, no need to get nasty here. Stick to the points. Keep it civil please. Yeah, yeah, I know, "He started it." But it takes two to tango, so they say, though I'm not really all that good at the tango.

[joecuba]

OOPS!

[Bluebeetle69]

Sorry Joe

I use lots of different Os's OSX Linux Red Hat and of course Win XP

I just guess i hate people going over the same old point update rubbish.
Yes 10.0 was a Beta, Everyone admits that even Apple, thats why 10.1.5
was (and still is) a FREE update

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/a ... 0_1_5.html

Sorry again

[Seal]

More pics for Seal

As requested, I stuck a cd in the pic to help you gauge the size.

THANKS!!! speedfreak!!! gosh im falling in love all over again... i read from thje apple website that the powerbook is even smaller by a little!!!

[alcimedes]

the powerbook is a little smaller, but the iBook is a much better deal.

especially if you're just going to try out the Mac platform, i wouldn't want to drop the extra few hundred bucks to get the powerbook. (unless you need the DVD burner).

the iBook is plenty fast for a laptop, very durable, and has better wireless reception.

although i must say, you'd have to pry my powerbook out of my cold, dead hands.

[sthayashi]

the powerbook is a little smaller, but the iBook is a much better deal.

especially if you're just going to try out the Mac platform, i wouldn't want to drop the extra few hundred bucks to get the powerbook. (unless you need the DVD burner).

the iBook is plenty fast for a laptop, very durable, and has better wireless reception.

Thanks. I'll pass that information along to the decision maker when I get a chance. Though I think the critical decision is whether or not we need to use some Mac-only analysis software, and that's outside of my field of expertise (I don't know what the software in question is).

[Semm]

Just as an aside, I'm considering a DP workstation and went out and priced a Xeon, Opteron and G5 system. With basically equivalent hardware (same size HDD(s), RAM, all with the fastest processor available, more or less equivalently PRICED video cards, etc. No software besides OS and whatever apple and MS don't charge for (WinXP and OSX)), the prices were all within about 10 percent, with the G5 coming in lowest and the Opteron the highest (surprised me!).

So, it really just boils down to what OS you prefer and what programs you will be working with, IMHO. When you're spending just south of $5k on a computer, a $500 difference isn't USUALLY going to be a make-or-break kind of thing (unless you're buying multiple units, which isn't really the question here). Certainly not to the extent that you'll want to waste a couple weeks getting comfortable with a new OS and suite of programs. That much lost time is worth more than the price difference, in any case.

Semm

Oh, right. I voted that I would consider buying a mac (obviously, or I wouldn't have bothered looking).

[Ralf Hutter]

Jesus, this thread's turning into more of a flame-war than my fucking abortion or God threads. This is silly. Nobody's accomplishing anything here exept yelling at each other. It's pretty bad when a Mac vs. PC thread gets nastier than a religion thread! They're just boxes full of electric parts guys!





dang, whatta buncha geeks....mutters Ralf as he goes to read Slashdot....

[sthayashi]

Just as an aside, I'm considering a DP workstation and went out and priced a Xeon, Opteron and G5 system. With basically equivalent hardware (same size HDD(s), RAM, all with the fastest processor available, more or less equivalently PRICED video cards, etc. No software besides OS and whatever apple and MS don't charge for (WinXP and OSX)), the prices were all within about 10 percent, with the G5 coming in lowest and the Opteron the highest (surprised me!).

So, it really just boils down to what OS you prefer and what programs you will be working with, IMHO. When you're spending just south of $5k on a computer, a $500 difference isn't USUALLY going to be a make-or-break kind of thing (unless you're buying multiple units, which isn't really the question here). Certainly not to the extent that you'll want to waste a couple weeks getting comfortable with a new OS and suite of programs. That much lost time is worth more than the price difference, in any case.

Um, I thought the latest Opterons could outperform Apple's latest Dual offering (based on all the complaints I read on the false advertising of the G5 outperforming a dual Xeon system). And depending on your motherboard, you can REALLY load up on RAM (check out the Tyan Thunder K8W or K8S). Anyways, if you're taking the best of all three setups, then you should at least consider the price/performance ratio instead of looking at price alone, regardless of whether or not my first sentence is true.

Also, don't forget that Linux can be free (as well as FreeBSD and OpenBSD). That's not as useful if you're building a workstation, but it is if you're building a server.

[peteamer]

http://www.overclockers.com/tips00489/

Has any one mentioned this?

[sthayashi]

Jesus, this thread's turning into more of a flame-war than my fucking abortion or God threads. This is silly. Nobody's accomplishing anything here exept yelling at each other. It's pretty bad when a Mac vs. PC thread gets nastier than a religion thread! They're just boxes full of electric parts guys!

BLASPHEMY!!!! How dare you call a computer merely a box full of electronics. Are humans merely blobs of impure water? No. Computers are life, dammit.

Seriously, I suspect this is because Team MacOSX spies on SPCR due to the tight race in Folding and I was in a mood to argue & have fun. Please correct me if I'm wrong everyone.

From that, I think we could start an equally large flame war with a topic like "Monty Python: Funny or Annoying as hell?" and I started ranting about how annoying people who quote Monty Python are. Note: I actually don't think that, and I quote them more often than is healthy.

Lastly though, I think I learned a lot more about the features of OSX these past few days than I would have if I actually HAD access to a modern Mac.

[Bluebeetle69]

"And depending on your motherboard, you can REALLY load up on RAM (check out the Tyan Thunder K8W or K8S)".

Tyan thunder 8 Ram slots supports Max 16Gb PC2700 (333mhz)

G5 8 RAM slots supports Max 16gb of PC3200 (400mhz)

I have both a Dual G5 2ghz and a Dual Xeon 2.4. The Intel is faster at Raw file photo conversion by about 20-30% (due to better number crunching) due to better FP

The G5 excels in bandwidth driven operations (Photoshop filters) as it has a faster system bus 1ghz Vs 533Mhz.
Also the G5 has a dual bi-directional Bus(that is it sends data both ways at the same time) oposed to the Xeon chips that share a bus between processors.
Both are fine, fast computers either one would make an excellent workstation.
Base your purchase on the software you are most likely to use any $5000 computer will be FAST

[sthayashi]

"And depending on your motherboard, you can REALLY load up on RAM (check out the Tyan Thunder K8W or K8S)".

Tyan thunder 8 Ram slots supports Max 16Gb PC2700 (333mhz)

G5 8 RAM slots supports Max 16gb of PC3200 (400mhz)

Err.... A correction and a question.

The correction: the K8W supports PC3200 if you're using 246 processors or greater (the memory controller is built into the CPU. It's listed in Tyan's FAQ, but oddly enough not on the actual product page)

The question: Why does Apple claim only 8GB max. on memory for the G5? This is not meant to be insulting or anything, but I just took a quick look at the numbers. Can the G5 accept 2GB Dimms?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just noticed that it was complete marketing BS on Tyan's part. 2GB Dimms don't exist yet

[Bluebeetle69]

The question: Why does Apple claim only 8GB max. on memory for the G5? This is not meant to be insulting or anything, but I just took a quick look at the numbers. Can the G5 accept 2GB Dimms?

yes it can support Way over 16gb but it needs non-error correction memory.

The 2GB non Ecc parts are rare and Apple uses 2 suppliers (Micron and Samsung) neither of which make them...Yet
So if you can find 2gb Pc3200 non Ecc Ok

Apple claimed 8gb last summer (before the 1gb's shipped) and everyone I know said WHAAAT who could ever need that much!

[Bluebeetle69]

EDIT: Nevermind, I just noticed that it was complete marketing BS on Tyan's part. 2GB Dimms don't exist yet

yes they do crucial put them up on their website this week!!

http://www.crucial.com/uk/store/listmod ... ge&cat=RAM

BTW the memory controllers are similar on both G5 and Oppie (I think Apple IBM and AMD developed them together)

[Seal]

wow 2gb ram chips, now thats impressive!