Would You Get A Mac?

Sailfish · Post by **Sailfish** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:19 pm

Well that was a good vent, LOL

I'm not here to start a flame war, most Mac users have to use PC's as well. So we have the experience with both platforms.

That's what makes a difference between Mac faithful and the those on PC's who never touched a Mac.

We know the difference.

joecuba · Post by **joecuba** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:56 am

Untrue.

I have used Macs and PC's. I dislike the 'Mac way'. I also dislike the "cult of Mac" and the mindset of those Mac users who think they are superior because they use one. Sailfish gives us a good example - "Mac faithful" - like it's some kind of religous cult or something.

sthayashi - IMHO, that was a silly comment about getting a Mac just to write Mac viri on...

Yes, your standard PC is a spyware, virus, and trojan infested pile of shit. Yes, this sucks. yes, Microsoft have to make the damn thing more secure. HOWEVER, don't tar us all with the same brush. I have about 10 PC's under my daily supervision (at home + office) and we haven't got a virus etc all year. I am really happy with all my machines, they do everything I want them too and then some (music creation / editing, video editing, graphics manipulation, website creation / editing, email, www, messenger, ftp, IRC etc etc)

Anyway, Mac, Linux, Windows - I am happy to use them all. Its just an operating system. My money is on PC's though, no way I am shelling out for an un-upgradable, hard to modify, expensive to fix, expensive to buy, noisy Mac.

BTW, I see Macs infested with malware as well.

P.S. If you use M$ Office or IE on a Mac, hang your head in shame.

Sailfish · Post by **Sailfish** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:15 am

I have used Macs and PC's. I dislike the 'Mac way'. I also dislike the "cult of Mac" and the mindset of those Mac users who think they are superior because they use one. Sailfish gives us a good example - "Mac faithful" - like it's some kind of religious cult or something.

Disney and Apple have a lot in common, they were both founded by visionaries. Billions of happy childhoods can be attested to the creation of Walt Disney and all that goes with it.

The same goes for Steve Jobs and Apple, the idea that making a computer that was easy to use for anyone, the GUI, the mouse, etc. all the things Windows users take for granted today was brought to market by Apple. The continuing innovation we see today, in Panther, in Pixar etc. Being Mac faithful means understanding the importance of this company and it's impact upon all computer users. Now and in the future, including Windows users, as Gates seems to copy the Mac OS extensively.

Sure there is a sort of cult feeling about it, the folks at Disney felt the same way. It's following a visionary, not a full fledged cult, they don't want all our money for nothing, just a bit more to support innovation and R&D, which I don't see Dell or anyone else doing. We get first pick of that innovation for our extra dollars, our lives are sweeter.

sthayashi - IMHO, that was a silly comment about getting a Mac just to write Mac viri on...

Now the trick is to get it people to put it on their computers,

Yes, your standard PC is a spyware, virus, and trojan infested pile of shit. Yes, this sucks. yes,

We Mac users call that the Stockholm Syndrome, M$ makes you guys suffer and hoping it will get better if you keep sticking with it.

Now Gates seems to think that by charging for emails is going to stop spam, when the problem can easily be cured by software.

Will Gates fix his software so borged machines can't pass on viril spam? no, his solution is to charge all of us more money. Because he is convinced that software can't be secure enough when BSD Unix (Mac OS X) proves that it can be.

So I guess this means no mail filters in Longhorn 2007 when Intel finally comes out with a decent chip (I think they are stuck like Motorola is) because M$ wants buisnesses to spam, he want's his cut.

Because Apple is consumer oriented, Mac OS X has a excellent mail filter, if I'm receiving spam, I sure don't know, only approved folks get through.

Microsoft have to make the damn thing more secure. HOWEVER, don't tar us all with the same brush. I have about 10 PC's under my daily supervision (at home + office) and we haven't got a virus etc all year.

All year, hmm that's only a few months, I haven't had one in 16 years!

Then only a disk based virus some asshole stuck in my computer..

Anyway, Mac, Linux, Windows - I am happy to use them all. Its just an operating system. My money is on PC's though, no way I am shelling out for an un-upgradable, hard to modify, expensive to fix, expensive to buy, noisy Mac.

Mac's are upgradable, we have processor add on cards, usually we just upgrade the whole computer, a little more money to spend perhaps.
But Mac users turn their computers over much much less than PC owners, it's once a year for PC's and 2-3 years for a Mac on average.

So who is really paying more?

Some Mac folks sell their last model and get the next one, I could get $2000 for my Duallie and then pay $3000 for the next one. Only spending $1000 between upgrades for the year, Macs retain their resell value, many folks get their Macs used.

By the way isn't it really expensive to make a homebuilt dual processor PC? The chips are $800 a piece right? Then what happens if the motherboard can't upgrade, got to buy another? Need a bigger power supply etc.

Mac's are not expensive to fix, unless you don't get AppleCare, you get a one year warranty and up to 4 years with Applecare, bumper to bumper.
Buys a lot of piece of mind, I run mine 24/7 full speed, I'm not worried about a thing.

G5's are so quiet all you hear is the hard drive accessing.

BTW, I see Macs infested with malware as well, usually because the user clicks on that 'install supper-xxx-while-u-wait.exe' whilst browsing.

Of course any fool can get duped, there are a lot safeguards, to access the OS the application will need the administration password, still again even a pro can get duped, at least it doesn't come uninvited, LOL

P.S. If you use M$ Office or IE on a Mac, hang your head in shame.

IE is garbage compared to Safari, that's why all Mac users dropped it like a hot rock, M$ discontinued it shortly afterwards. Oh yea M$ did a royal job screwing up OfficeMac, I don't know why Apple sells the the thing. We get more problems from that program. Appleworks works like greased lightning, loads in about a second (all five programs) and only costs $80. Reads and writes to M$ files as well.

We were hoping Apple would come out with a iOffice Suite, it's really easy software for Apple to write, they make complex stuff like Shake, iDVD, iMovie etc.

Guess they got some sort of deal with Redmond not to go there.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:56 am

Sailfish wrote:That's what makes a difference between Mac faithful and the those on PC's who never touched a Mac.

Oh, I've touched Macs. Just not any with OSX 10.2 or later on them. My experiences with previous Macs has been with OSX 10.1 and before. And I'm sorry, they really sucked. So then the Mac people tell me, "Well you should really try it NOW."

joecuba wrote:sthayashi - IMHO, that was a silly comment about getting a Mac just to write Mac viri on...

It IS silly, but the question was if I had lots of money to spend. And ultimately, if I had so much money that I could think of anything else that I wanted or needed, then I WOULD get a Mac to experiment with and on. As is though, I don't have the cash and if I did, there are better things for me to spend my money on.

Sailfish wrote:The same goes for Steve Jobs and Apple, the idea that making a computer that was easy to use for anyone, the GUI, the mouse, etc. all the things Windows users take for granted today was brought to market by Apple. The continuing innovation we see today, in Panther, in Pixar etc. Being Mac faithful means understanding the importance of this company and it's impact upon all computer users. Now and in the future, including Windows users, as Gates seems to copy the Mac OS extensively.

The Dock bar. Oops, that wasn't an Apple innovation, was it? Let's expand that further. The concept of "Shared Libraries" is familiar to Windows users as DLLs. AGP? You can thank PCs for that. There are a number of things that Mac users sure take for granted that evolved on the PC platform.

Sailfish wrote:But Mac users turn their computers over much much less than PC owners, it's once a year for PC's and 2-3 years for a Mac on average.

So who is really paying more?

By the way isn't it really expensive to make a homebuilt dual processor PC? The chips are $800 a piece right? Then what happens if the motherboard can't upgrade, got to buy another? Need a bigger power supply etc.

That's funny. I just upgraded my processors in the last couple months from the ones I bought new 2 YEARS AGO. Motherboard is still the same, RAM is still the same. Video Card is the same from 1999. Ethernet card is still the same. I do have to admit though that I've changed my hard drives a bit, as well as the heatsinks. That's because I started getting into Silent computing and I'm also a data packrat. And when my parents got me a Plextor 708 DVD-writer for my birthday, I did install it. The only other major change that I did is something that Mac users could only dream of.

I changed the case.

As for it being really expensive to go dual PC, the answer is, only if you want the best of the best. It cost me less than $200 to upgrade to the dual processors that I have in machine 1 in my sig.

You know what a good motherboard life cycle is? About 2-3 years, same as your Mac. Unless the motherboard has crappy hardware on it, like the old Via boards. And you don't need a new power supply unless yours was really old and crappy to begin with. That would put the life cycle at about 4-5 years. That's the REAL beauty with PCs though. They just get cheaper over time, because you never have to buy a whole PC all at once when you upgrade.

Sailfish wrote:Of course any fool can get duped, at least it doesn't come uninvited, LOL

Funny. That's how a lot of viruses and adware gets onto PCs.

alcimedes · Post by **alcimedes** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:47 am

PCs are for the people who know what they're doing. For everyone else, there's Macintosh.

if that were true i think we'd see the marketshare numbers reversed.

i do IT work for one of the Big Ten universities. there are over 300 people in my department. i use both platforms all the time, and the split in my deparment is about 2/3 PC, 1/3 Mac.

whether people want to admit it or not, most people using computers are idiots. they get a random e-mail saying to delete this "teddy bear" icon and they do it.

some e-mail comes through saying they sent out a virus and they believe it.

they go to a web page to look at a screensaver, and it says to view it you have to add a program. they add it.

people who use computers are mostly idiots. until Windows improves their security (only root access to the registry, passwords to make significant changes, not defaulting to admin user etc) it is going to be the prime avenue for network based problems.

i'm glad that most of you know what a firewall and router do, and how to set one up. that does nothing for the 99% of computer users who don't. fact is that computer users are idiots, and windows hasn't been designed with idiots in mind. you have to know what you're doing to use a windows machine safely, and the vast majority of people don't.

10.1 was terrible. 10.2 was usable. 10.3 is good. there are some significant changes that still need to be made, but i'm much happier with 10.3 than XP or 2k.

in any case, i see the worst case scenerio with both platforms all day long. that's my job. i can promise you that the worst that happens to the PC's is magnitudes beyond the worst that ever happens on the Macs. you can try and spin that whatever way you want, but it's reality.[/quote]

NoahJ · Post by **NoahJ** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:14 pm

sthayashi wrote: Oh, I've touched Macs. Just not any with OSX 10.2 or later on them. My experiences with previous Macs has been with OSX 10.1 and before. And I'm sorry, they really sucked. So then the Mac people tell me, "Well you should really try it NOW."

Good, you at least have some experience to base your opinion on. Glad to hear it. How long did you use them and for what?

It IS silly, but the question was if I had lots of money to spend. And ultimately, if I had so much money that I could think of anything else that I wanted or needed, then I WOULD get a Mac to experiment with and on. As is though, I don't have the cash and if I did, there are better things for me to spend my money on.

Do you truly believe that nobody is trying to write virii for macs? That you are the only one that has this thought? Wake up.

The Dock bar. Oops, that wasn't an Apple innovation, was it?

Nope, made by Steve jobs at his other company, NeXT. Perhaps you ahve heard of it?

Let's expand that further. The concept of "Shared Libraries" is familiar to Windows users as DLLs.

Familiar to UNIX users as well. And the base of OS X is what now? Continuing on...

AGP? You can thank PCs for that. There are a number of things that Mac users sure take for granted that evolved on the PC platform.

And Macs made USB more than it was as well. So? Hardware will evolve byt you are talking about open standards, not about true innovation. Used firewire lately? Same deal. Using open technology is a no brainer, you use what works best. The question is, how does one make that technology better when they day is out? Apple has done more in this arena than almost every PC vendoe out there. Ther are a few exceptions, but they are very few, and you would call their machines overpriced as well. Innovation costs money.

wrote: That's funny. I just upgraded my processors in the last couple months from the ones I bought new 2 YEARS AGO. Motherboard is still the same, RAM is still the same. Video Card is the same from 1999. Ethernet card is still the same. I do have to admit though that I've changed my hard drives a bit, as well as the heatsinks. That's because I started getting into Silent computing and I'm also a data packrat. And when my parents got me a Plextor 708 DVD-writer for my birthday, I did install it. The only other major change that I did is something that Mac users could only dream of.

I just built a very nice machine for a friend of mine for about $1000. It is a very nice machine, and less expensive than most Macs. Dual Procs, 1GB ram, Athlon MP 2000+, and more. That price did not include a FDD (who needs em), The OS (Took the OS off of his replaced machine), or any software (Same deal as the OS). Put all that in there and his machine would have been Over $2000. He has Office, XP Pro and much more. Price is pretty competative actually. The difference, on the Mac I know that all the componants will work together. On that machine, I had my fingers crossed the whole time. It worked out (I love it when it does), but it is not better than a Mac, it is just another good machine. the last PC I built for him was based on a Dual SuperMicro Motherboard and he had it for over 6 years. He never upgraded it. Even though he could have easily.

I changed the case.

Why would I want to change my excellent quality case for any other? Say what you will about macs, the cases on the towers are of highest quality. Very easy to work on, and with.

You know what a good motherboard life cycle is? About 2-3 years, same as your Mac. Unless the motherboard has crappy hardware on it, like the old Via boards. And you don't need a new power supply unless yours was really old and crappy to begin with. That would put the life cycle at about 4-5 years. That's the REAL beauty with PCs though. They just get cheaper over time, because you never have to buy a whole PC all at once when you upgrade.

The motherboard may last that long, but how many people really keep them that long? And how many actually upgrade them? The list gets shorter all the time. The benefits of a PC for upgradability is getting slimmer all the time. The Mac is more and more upgradable as time goes by, so I guess the only thing you can replace that a Mac user cannot is the case? But even that is not true, the power supply is portable, I can put any case I want if I want to take the time. And I can upgrade the Procs, RAM, HDD, GPU, CD, DVD, CD-RW, and more as well.

Funny. That's how a lot of viruses and adware gets onto PCs.

When you get adware installed on your PC, how many times does it ask you for a password? It asks every time on a Mac, even if you are logged in as admin. The last few I saw on a PC, no asking if you were logged in as admin, it just went to town, and the user was none the wiser.

Lets just get down to the brass tacks. Both platforms have their benefits. The Mac has a very dedicated bunch of users and the PC does as well. Both sides can show how one is better than the other. I willfight you to the death if you try to tell me that windows is easier overall than Mac. I support an enterprise with over 6000 PC's for a fortune 50 Company. Patch management in itself is a full time job. Then you start getting into registry issues, Viruses, poorly written patches that break more than they fix, and Browsers and Office Suites that believe they are an integral part of the OS. Then things start getting ugly. This is an argument that you or I will never win. But I truly believe that I have much more information about both platforms combined than you do and have a better footing from which to make a judgement. I run both, support both and like tha Mac better. It has flaws, but they pale beside many of the flaws you find in any PC. My $1.50 worth.

Oh, and I voted yes on whether I would buy a Mac. In a heartbeat, even when I can build a PC blindfolded any day of the week for Less $$$.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:50 pm

NoahJ wrote:
sthayashi wrote: Oh, I've touched Macs. Just not any with OSX 10.2 or later on them. My experiences with previous Macs has been with OSX 10.1 and before. And I'm sorry, they really sucked. So then the Mac people tell me, "Well you should really try it NOW."
Good, you at least have some experience to base your opinion on. Glad to hear it. How long did you use them and for what?

Used them in a few computer labs to do some quick emailing and web browsing. I can't remember the pre-OSX version number, but it choked when I had a couple browser windows open (netscape).

Back in 1998, I worked on a Mac that hung if you just looked at it the wrong way. It was an older Mac, even at the time. Hardly the 'so much better' system I kept hearing in my ear.

BTW, I was in error earlier, what I thought was OSX in one of the computer labs was really OS9-something (had to look it up). That was a relatively uneventful experience, except that I'm too used to using a multi-buttoned mouse and was frustrated by it.

NoahJ wrote:Do you truly believe that nobody is trying to write virii for macs? That you are the only one that has this thought? Wake up.

No, really? Tell that to the Mac Zealots who think their Mac is indestructible. Even the Linux fan boys aren't THAT naive.

NoahJ wrote:
The Dock bar. Oops, that wasn't an Apple innovation, was it?
Nope, made by Steve jobs at his other company, NeXT. Perhaps you ahve heard of it?

The best computer that never was? I've never used a NeXT, and from what I've read, very few people have. You'll pardon my ignorance on that one.

NoahJ wrote:
Let's expand that further. The concept of "Shared Libraries" is familiar to Windows users as DLLs.
Familiar to UNIX users as well. And the base of OS X is what now? Continuing on...

AGP? You can thank PCs for that. There are a number of things that Mac users sure take for granted that evolved on the PC platform.
And Macs made USB more than it was as well. So? Hardware will evolve byt you are talking about open standards, not about true innovation. Used firewire lately? Same deal. Using open technology is a no brainer, you use what works best. The question is, how does one make that technology better when they day is out? Apple has done more in this arena than almost every PC vendoe out there. Ther are a few exceptions, but they are very few, and you would call their machines overpriced as well. Innovation costs money.

So why is it that when Apple comes up with a technology first, it's because they're innovative. And when someone else comes up with it, it's an open standard. Do you think that DVD, USB2, DDR-RAM, and PCI all just fell from the sky? No, companies put in their money and research and worked together to put together a standard. IEEE1394 is really an exception to the rule that is Apple.

NoahJ wrote:I just built a very nice machine for a friend of mine for about $1000. It is a very nice machine, and less expensive than most Macs. Dual Procs, 1GB ram, Athlon MP 2000+, and more. That price did not include a FDD (who needs em), The OS (Took the OS off of his replaced machine), or any software (Same deal as the OS). Put all that in there and his machine would have been Over $2000. He has Office, XP Pro and much more. Price is pretty competative actually. The difference, on the Mac I know that all the componants will work together. On that machine, I had my fingers crossed the whole time. It worked out (I love it when it does), but it is not better than a Mac, it is just another good machine. the last PC I built for him was based on a Dual SuperMicro Motherboard and he had it for over 6 years. He never upgraded it. Even though he could have easily.

Good for him and good for you. Want a cookie? What I've discovered in my years of building PCs is that it's a lot like operating a PC. If you're an idiot about it, you'll end up paying for it with problems. Don't go with the lowest bidder no-name brand, or you're taking a gamble.

NoahJ wrote:Why would I want to change my excellent quality case for any other? Say what you will about macs, the cases on the towers are of highest quality. Very easy to work on, and with.

Perhaps you need more drive bays. Perhaps you need the computer to fit in a much tighter space. Maybe you want to make it more portable while still maintaining the strength of a desktop/server. Or even the simplest reason, you just wanted a new look.

The motherboard may last that long, but how many people really keep them that long? And how many actually upgrade them? The list gets shorter all the time. The benefits of a PC for upgradability is getting slimmer all the time. The Mac is more and more upgradable as time goes by, so I guess the only thing you can replace that a Mac user cannot is the case? But even that is not true, the power supply is portable, I can put any case I want if I want to take the time. And I can upgrade the Procs, RAM, HDD, GPU, CD, DVD, CD-RW, and more as well.

WTF? If anything, people are realizing that there is very little gain in moving upwards. People with 2.4GHz processors aren't falling over themselves for a 3.4GHz processor. And what with the major shifts in technology happening soon, like BTX and PCI-Xpress, a lot of people are going to wait until it all comes together. Due to that, my motherboard will last me another year or so. Maybe even longer.

NoahJ wrote:When you get adware installed on your PC, how many times does it ask you for a password? It asks every time on a Mac, even if you are logged in as admin. The last few I saw on a PC, no asking if you were logged in as admin, it just went to town, and the user was none the wiser.

Is this true for just adware, or all software in general?

NoahJ wrote:I willfight you to the death if you try to tell me that windows is easier overall than Mac.

Oooh. I like fights to the death. I've never lost yet (if I have, I wouldn't be here

). I do believe that Windows allows more flexibility than Mac, and that flexibility lends itself to security holes.

NoahJ wrote:I support an enterprise with over 6000 PC's for a fortune 50 Company. Patch management in itself is a full time job. Then you start getting into registry issues, Viruses, poorly written patches that break more than they fix, and Browsers and Office Suites that believe they are an integral part of the OS. Then things start getting ugly. This is an argument that you or I will never win. But I truly believe that I have much more information about both platforms combined than you do and have a better footing from which to make a judgement. I run both, support both and like tha Mac better. It has flaws, but they pale beside many of the flaws you find in any PC. My $1.50 worth.

I love the "I'm a sys admin, so my opinion is worth more than yours" argument. You come from a background that focuses on security and stability, two things that Windows is not known for when in the hands of idiots. I've already admitted this and established that earlier (and if you're using MS servers, then no wonder you're so upset). Can you say the same about product development and usability? I'm not talking about native software/tools. I'm talking about your own software or third-party software that is tailored to your specific needs and tasks.

Sailfish · Post by **Sailfish** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:55 pm

Mac's are like a fine French wine, one sip and it's like blinders come off your eyes.

You wonder why you have suffered with the el' cheapo wine all these years.

A toast my fellow Mac and PC friends, to another 20 years of Apple innovation, quality, reliability and customer satisfaction!

And of course, lower total cost of ownership as well! After all time is money!

cheers!

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:25 pm

Sailfish wrote:A toast my fellow Mac and PC friends, to another 20 years of Apple innovation, quality, reliability and customer satisfaction!

And of course, lower total cost of ownership as well! After all time is money!

Though this may be the case now, it certainly wasn't always that way. Remember the Apple III, the Lisa, AppleTalk and many more I've forgotten.

And time is only money if your time is always profitable. Ain't that way with me.

NoahJ · Post by **NoahJ** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:30 pm

Wow sthayashi,

Even with me agreeing with you overall you still could not help but flame back. And Mac people are bigots?

Let's talk about the standards innovation that occurred. You stated:

So why is it that when Apple comes up with a technology first, it's because they're innovative. And when someone else comes up with it, it's an open standard. Do you think that DVD, USB2, DDR-RAM, and PCI all just fell from the sky? No, companies put in their money and research and worked together to put together a standard. IEEE1394 is really an exception to the rule that is Apple.

Which PC manufacturer invented those other standards. Remember my last sentance:

Apple has done more in this arena than almost every PC vendor out there. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few, and you would call their machines overpriced as well. Innovation costs money.

Innovation is Innovation. And it still costs money...

Lets get back to what you wrote though and see the problems.

Used them in a few computer labs to do some quick emailing and web browsing. I can't remember the pre-OSX version number, but it choked when I had a couple browser windows open (netscape).

Back in 1998, I worked on a Mac that hung if you just looked at it the wrong way. It was an older Mac, even at the time. Hardly the 'so much better' system I kept hearing in my ear.

So you barely used them and you had a bad experience on one. Truly a fair judge of an entire platform. However, I agree that OS 9 and earlier were not the pinnicle of stability that many would liek them to be. If they were tweaked or altered beyond a clean install and then not properly maintained they would get very unstable. Sounds like any 9x OS I have used on Windows. The two were comparable.

BTW, I was in error earlier, what I thought was OSX in one of the computer labs was really OS9-something (had to look it up). That was a relatively uneventful experience, except that I'm too used to using a multi-buttoned mouse and was frustrated by it.

So the comp had a single button mouse. So? You may or may not be aware that the Mac has supported multi-button mice for many many years. They just don't ship with them. In fact I am running a 5 button MS Intellimouse Explorer under OS X. Have had it since OS 9, made palying DeusEx easier since I could Crouch run, jump. change weapons and more with just my mouse hand.

No, really? Tell that to the Mac Zealots who think their Mac is indestructible. Even the Linux fan boys aren't THAT naive.

So now Linux users are Naieve as well? For now, OS X is 100% virus free. That does say something. Whether you think it does or not. How many new viruses and variants were released for windows this week? More than none. How many over the life of windows? More than 50,000. How many on the Mac this week? None. How many over the life of the mac, Less than 5000. That also says a lot. You can pretend it does not matter, but it does.

The best computer that never was? I've never used a NeXT, and from what I've read, very few people have. You'll pardon my ignorance on that one.

That was not the point, the point was that the dock came from NeXT which is the Company that Apple bought to bring Steve Jobs Back and then based a lot of their GUI aound. Voila, the dock.

Good for him and good for you. Want a cookie? What I've discovered in my years of building PCs is that it's a lot like operating a PC. If you're an idiot about it, you'll end up paying for it with problems. Don't go with the lowest bidder no-name brand, or you're taking a gamble.

I never go no name or lowball. Especially when building for others.

Perhaps you need more drive bays. Perhaps you need the computer to fit in a much tighter space. Maybe you want to make it more portable while still maintaining the strength of a desktop/server. Or even the simplest reason, you just wanted a new look.

A new look? Superficial. MOre drive bays? maybe, but then I could go with External USB drives or a Firewire raid drive bay. Portable? Nope, it has handles now and if I need more portable than that I will get a laptop.

WTF? If anything, people are realizing that there is very little gain in moving upwards. People with 2.4GHz processors aren't falling over themselves for a 3.4GHz processor. And what with the major shifts in technology happening soon, like BTX and PCI-Xpress, a lot of people are going to wait until it all comes together. Due to that, my motherboard will last me another year or so. Maybe even longer.

Thank you for proving my point. Having all that upgrability gains nothing as people don't typically do it anyways. They just like the feeling it gives them that they "could" if they "wanted to". Well, guess what, they can on a new Mac as well. And they still won't.

Is this true for just adware, or all software in general?

Depends on teh software. Anything that installs at a system level, such as programs that are avaialable to all users or system patches REQUIRE that you enter a password to install it. Very secure. There is NO WAY around it that I hav heard of. And I have looked.

Oooh. I like fights to the death. I've never lost yet (if I have, I wouldn't be here ). I do believe that Windows allows more flexibility than Mac, and that flexibility lends itself to security holes.

I don't agree. Show me where I am wrong. OS X is much more flexible than you give it credit for, but then again, you have never used it.

I love the "I'm a sys admin, so my opinion is worth more than yours" argument. You come from a background that focuses on security and stability, two things that Windows is not known for when in the hands of idiots. I've already admitted this and established that earlier (and if you're using MS servers, then no wonder you're so upset). Can you say the same about product development and usability? I'm not talking about native software/tools. I'm talking about your own software or third-party software that is tailored to your specific needs and tasks.

I never said that being a system admin means I know more, just establishing a baseline of knowlege so that you would know where I am coming from. I have run Windows, Linux, MacOS, and others so I have a good amount of experience with all of them.

You cannot say the same from what you just told me. You have not even used OSX and you are talking about how it sucks? Your post is full of wrong information about it. And you are just looking to argue, not even responsibly, for the sake of arguing.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:08 pm

wow, ive started a war!

anyway i hope i dont get murdered for saying this but i want one (ibook g4) because they just look absolutely amazing, very designer and very very stylish. I will use it ALONGSIDE my pc as i dont think i'll ever be able to use a mac for 100% of things because of compatability issues, also im looking for something different.

speedfreak · Post by **speedfreak** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:07 pm

To those who used macs back in the late 90's and were not impressed to say the least, Duh. I stopped using macs in 1995 because they were slow and crashed a lot. Win 95 was a little better but at least I could buy software for it. My father is a die hard mac person and in 2001 I broke down and got an imac because he said OSX was so great. I was not impressed and quite disappointed with my purchase. I guess this was version 10.1. I used it some for browsing but not much more. There was not much software for OSX at the time . The browser version updates were always late coming so web pages loaded looking like crap.
Last christmas my dad comes to visit and brings his powerbook and iPod with him. The PB has OSX 10.2.X Jaguar. He plugs into my network and is surfing in 2 seconds. Logging into my pc's with ease. Printing on my network. I was blown away. He happened to have the install disk for Panther and we put it on my iMac and it was like getting a brand new machine. It finally worked like I expected it to when I got it. And it had a new browser from Apple.
Needless to say I now have more macs than pc's. But I'm not saying that will always be the case. At the moment a Mac running OSX is superior to a pc running windows XP pro. xp home is a chopped down version but is ok. XP is at least stable ie no crashes. The popups drive me nuts though. I never get viruses on either platform. I only use webmail on the pc (perhaps this is why?).

I'm no mac cult guy but at least try it out . It is secure, stable, and very compatible with other platforms.

speedfreak · Post by **speedfreak** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:16 pm

Hey seal - I took mine apart tonight and made the apple red.

Here are some pics

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:32 pm

NoahJ wrote:Wow sthayashi. Even with me agreeing with you overall you still could not help but flame back. And Mac people are bigots?

I flamed back because I didn't think I agreeded with you overall. But hey, this IS a flame war.

NoahJ wrote:
So why is it that when Apple comes up with a technology first, it's because they're innovative. And when someone else comes up with it, it's an open standard. Do you think that DVD, USB2, DDR-RAM, and PCI all just fell from the sky? No, companies put in their money and research and worked together to put together a standard. IEEE1394 is really an exception to the rule that is Apple.
Which PC manufacturer invented those other standards.

Intel. Or would you not consider them a PC manufacturer since you can't buy a computer ready made from them?
How about Samsung then, contributing to memory specifications, or Toshiba contributing their work on DVDs and the future?

NoahJ wrote:
Apple has done more in this arena than almost every PC vendor out there. There are a few exceptions, but they are very few, and you would call their machines overpriced as well. Innovation costs money.
Innovation is Innovation. And it still costs money...

Can you name some other hardware innovations by Apple aside from Firewire? The iPod?

NoahJ wrote:So you barely used them and you had a bad experience on one. Truly a fair judge of an entire platform. However, I agree that OS 9 and earlier were not the pinnicle of stability that many would liek them to be. If they were tweaked or altered beyond a clean install and then not properly maintained they would get very unstable. Sounds like any 9x OS I have used on Windows. The two were comparable.

Do you really want me to list ALL my experiences with Macs? As I've said, they're all pre-OSX. And you know what, every time I used a Mac to check my mail or browse the web, it was always sluggish. To Apple's credit, I WAS using Netscape, due to lack of a better browser.

And that's not mentioning the ridiculously slow boot times I've experienced with ALL of them, stretching back to what I think was the PowerPC days. But going back that far is like complaining about Intel's FDIV bug.

NoahJ wrote:So the comp had a single button mouse. So? You may or may not be aware that the Mac has supported multi-button mice for many many years. They just don't ship with them. In fact I am running a 5 button MS Intellimouse Explorer under OS X. Have had it since OS 9, made palying DeusEx easier since I could Crouch run, jump. change weapons and more with just my mouse hand.

All this wonderful innovation that Apple does and they don't even ship with a two-button mouse? And looking around in the Apple store, I couldn't any other kinds of mice.

NoahJ wrote:So now Linux users are Naieve as well? For now, OS X is 100% virus free. That does say something. Whether you think it does or not. How many new viruses and variants were released for windows this week? More than none. How many over the life of windows? More than 50,000. How many on the Mac this week? None. How many over the life of the mac, Less than 5000. That also says a lot. You can pretend it does not matter, but it does.

Let's see. Linux users who blindly install Red Hat distributions without securing them ARE naive. Especially when Red hat does things like bundle software that's still beta.

NoahJ wrote:That was not the point, the point was that the dock came from NeXT which is the Company that Apple bought to bring Steve Jobs Back and then based a lot of their GUI aound. Voila, the dock.

I'll concede that. My point was that I was unaware of the NeXTStep using that.

NoahJ wrote:I never go no name or lowball. Especially when building for others.

Good. Too many system builders make that mistake.

A new look? Superficial. MOre drive bays? maybe, but then I could go with External USB drives or a Firewire raid drive bay. Portable? Nope, it has handles now and if I need more portable than that I will get a laptop.

So there's nothing in between for you? No, "I have 1 graphics card, 1 PCI card, 1 hard drive and 1 processor. I wonder if this could be a lot smaller so that I can tuck it above my VCR and be able to play all kinds of video back on my TV." Your loss, not mine.

NoahJ wrote:Thank you for proving my point. Having all that upgrability gains nothing as people don't typically do it anyways. They just like the feeling it gives them that they "could" if they "wanted to". Well, guess what, they can on a new Mac as well. And they still won't.

I misinterpreted the meaning of that comment. Shame on me for skimming your work.

Here's what you wrote:The motherboard may last that long, but how many people really keep them that long? And how many actually upgrade them? The list gets shorter all the time. The benefits of a PC for upgradability is getting slimmer all the time. The Mac is more and more upgradable as time goes by, so I guess the only thing you can replace that a Mac user cannot is the case? But even that is not true, the power supply is portable, I can put any case I want if I want to take the time. And I can upgrade the Procs, RAM, HDD, GPU, CD, DVD, CD-RW, and more as well.

So you're saying that the benefits of a Mac get better as you upgrade it? Boldly going where the PC has been for years?

I've got a quick question. Where can you get Mac CPUs? I didn't see them at the Apple store, and they're not listed in my usual computer stores.

NoahJ wrote:Depends on teh software. Anything that installs at a system level, such as programs that are avaialable to all users or system patches REQUIRE that you enter a password to install it. Very secure. There is NO WAY around it that I hav heard of. And I have looked.

But it's possible to install software for just one user without needing to type in a password? Also, there may still exist the possibility of trojans, which is a program you install thinking it does one thing, but then it does something else entirely. No computer is safe from the social engineering of the user.

NoahJ wrote:I don't agree. Show me where I am wrong. OS X is much more flexible than you give it credit for, but then again, you have never used it.

You just mentioned it. If I'm setting up a new system, there are about half a dozen programs that I like to have installed along side it. Foobar2k, TheBat, Xnews, Mozilla, Media Player Classic 6.4, etc. I'd find it annoying to have to type in the root password everytime for my own personal computer. That to me is an inconvenience. Heck, to a lot of people, logging in on their own home computer is an inconvenience.

I haven't said anything about OSX, but I'll get to that point below. My comment about the inflexibility was not meant to be directed at OSX, though I look back now and realize that I was misleading.

NoahJ wrote:You cannot say the same from what you just told me. You have not even used OSX and you are talking about how it sucks? Your post is full of wrong information about it. And you are just looking to argue, not even responsibly, for the sake of arguing.

Here is where you are very wrong. I have not bashed OSX, except in the context of 10.1 on which I was on the receiving end of complaints from friends running it (not really direct exposure to it, but when Mac zealots concede that it was a mistake, you know something is up). I have attacked the Mac hardware, Apple itself via its other products and failures, and previous incarnations of the Macintosh, but I will not say anything direct or specific about OSX 10.2 and beyond, since I've heard lots of praise from system admins and *nix fans alike, I know that I've not tried it out.

And truthfully, I would LOVE to see OSX get ported over to the x86 platform. I WANT to try it out see how it is for myself. I WANT Microsoft's nose to get bloodied. The competition would be good for them at the very least. But I'm not about to buy Mac just to find out. Apple has embraced so many open standards at this point, there's no reason not to go the final step and embrace the x86 platform. Or hey, go one step further and embrace the x86-64 platform.

Sad to say, I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.

speedfreak · Post by **speedfreak** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:56 pm

Cool OSX features soon to be copied by M$

1. expose
2. realtime fullscreen videochat
3. filevault
4. syncing
5. sherlock
6. more intuitive interface
7. similar quartz enabled graphics in system
8. real scripting capability
9. better application integration
10. etc....

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:28 pm

speedfreak wrote:1. expose
2. realtime fullscreen videochat
3. filevault
4. syncing
5. sherlock
6. more intuitive interface
7. similar quartz enabled graphics in system
8. real scripting capability
9. better application integration
10. etc....

I had to google to find information on everything you mentioned.

1. I hope so, but they'll probably call it something like filefinder. More likely, it may be integrated into the disk filing system.
2. Probably not. Netmeeting is dead and I doubt they'll revive it. That doesn't mean that some other company will try and develope it, but that isn't MS's style.
3. Probably will be integrated with the filing system again.
4. I didn't get this. Syncing with what? Everything I can think of, it already can sync up with.
5. I hope to God not. They'll try it, and they'll f*** it up, but it'll be working so-so by IE 8 or 9.
6. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm sorry, but MS's interface has gotten LESS intuitive since Win2k.
7. This one sounds really interesting, but I won't make a presumptuous judgement call until I can see OSX with and without it. Apple's description of it is somewhat vague.
8. Already has it. Visual Basic. In fact it can do some really nasty things if you're not careful. Just kidding. Interesting, but they'll probably wait it out and see how successful that feature is.
9. This is another interesting suggestion. In short, I hope it DOESN'T do this. Many of the integrated applications are major security holes as is. Besides integrated apps one of the critical differences between Mac/OSX and Windows (at least from my understanding). Many of the best apps on OSX are written by Apple. Many of the best apps in Windows are NOT written by Microsoft.

Sailfish · Post by **Sailfish** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:10 pm

Can you name some other hardware innovations by Apple aside from Firewire? The iPod?

Apple innovation firsts:

The first personal computer, the first mouse, the first GUI, the first laserprinter, the first floppy drive, first built in networking, first plug and play...

You know when the Mac came out, I remember all the DOS diehards were saying that the Mac GUI was for computer dummies and shunned it.

But Gates copied the GUI, called it Windows, made it a shell to run on top of DOS and it was gradually introduced.

Apple sued Microsoft for many years over stealing the "look and feel" of Apple.

See the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" or you can read about Apple's history online or in a book.

Pretty interesting things going on with this company, especially now that Steve is back at the helm, older and wiser.

We have this new thing called X-Grid which is in it's early stages, what it promises is to allow all the processors "on the grid" (either online or lan) to work together like a giant supercomputer.

With the rock solid security and things like Filevault that encrypts your user folder on the fly, this will allow your spare CPU cycles to be used, even sold. Or if you have a large render job, you can send it out on the grid do get finished in mere seconds, what would take hours or days.

G5's actually like to run hard, I've found out, and Mac OS X has a 4:30 AM daily cron script that needs to run. So we are getting groomed to run our machines 24/7 for something big.

So we are on the frontline of technological innovation with our dedication to Apple. Always have been, because Apple is making a profit and does so by innovation. iPods for all!

Mac OS X 10.1 "Jaguar" was beta, with Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther" being the first version of a whole new OS. This is understandable as Apple relies heavily upon customer reaction to make improvements.

By the way a third party company as already copied Apples Expose feature for Windows users. Apple innovation copied again. LOL

And I've noticed Windows Media Player made a rather bad knockoff of the iTunes visuals feature.

It was playing on a crappy Dell with two cheap rather bad sounding speakers, the whole IE interface was cluttered and confusing mess and I had to keep killing these pop-up windows for porn all the time.

LOL

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:54 am

speedfreak wrote:Hey seal - I took mine apart tonight and made the apple red.

Here are some pics

NICE!!! that looks great, you got any other pictures of it? Im finding it hard to judge its size by looking at pictures of peoples ibooks. can you put a cd next to it or something?

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:42 am

Sailfish wrote:Apple innovation firsts:
The first personal computer

Nope. I'd say that was the Altair. Try again.

Sailfish wrote:the first mouse, the first GUI

Nope. That was Xerox.

Sailfish wrote:the first laserprinter

Xerox, IBM, and possibly HP.

Sailfish wrote:the first floppy drive

IBM

Sailfish wrote:first built in networking

Xerox again.

Sailfish wrote:first plug and play

Eh, it's hard to find the history of PnP, so I'll give you this one.

Sailfish wrote:You know when the Mac came out, I remember all the DOS diehards were saying that the Mac GUI was for computer dummies and shunned it. But Gates copied the GUI, called it Windows, made it a shell to run on top of DOS and it was gradually introduced.

This is true. And do you know why Windows has spread like a plague? Because it's much more flexible on the hardware. Microsoft doesn't care whether the hardware is Intel, AMD, Via, nVidia, SiS, ALi or anything else. In fact, their flexibility gave them disgusting power over PC Vendors, who at one time were forced to Microsoft royalties based on every computer they sold, EVEN IF IT DIDN'T HAVE A MICROSOFT OS INSTALLED

Sailfish wrote:See the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" or you can read about Apple's history online or in a book.
Pretty interesting things going on with this company, especially now that Steve is back at the helm, older and wiser.

Already did that. That was an entertaining movie. Remember at the end, how Microsoft bailed out a dying Apple? I think Microsoft knows that they have no sense of creativity. Look at the XBox.

Sailfish wrote:We have this new thing called X-Grid which is in it's early stages, what it promises is to allow all the processors "on the grid" (either online or lan) to work together like a giant supercomputer.

You mean like a Beowolf cluster?

Sailfish wrote:With the rock solid security and things like Filevault that encrypts your user folder on the fly, this will allow your spare CPU cycles to be used, even sold. Or if you have a large render job, you can send it out on the grid do get finished in mere seconds, what would take hours or days.

So basically, it IS a Beowolf cluster, but with an encrypted filing system.

Sailfish wrote:G5's actually like to run hard, I've found out, and Mac OS X has a 4:30 AM daily cron script that needs to run. So we are getting groomed to run our machines 24/7 for something big.

I don't think I understand your point here.

Sailfish wrote:So we are on the frontline of technological innovation with our dedication to Apple. Always have been, because Apple is making a profit and does so by innovation. iPods for all!

I won't deny Apple's creativity, but technological innovation? Perhaps in software but certainly not hardware. I'll pass on the iPod. I'd rather have a Rio Karma.

Sailfish wrote:Mac OS X 10.1 "Jaguar" was beta, with Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther" being the first version of a whole new OS. This is understandable as Apple relies heavily upon customer reaction to make improvements.

I think this is how Apple makes its profits. By selling software that even their users consider beta. That and selling relatively inexpensive hardware that's been marked up considerably.

Sailfish wrote:By the way a third party company as already copied Apples Expose feature for Windows users. Apple innovation copied again. LOL

Bought and paid for by Microsoft? I'm really amused that you can call it innovation when Apple takes credit for someone else's technology, but call it stealing when someone else borrows their technology right back.

Sailfish wrote:And I've noticed Windows Media Player made a rather bad knockoff of the iTunes visuals feature.

I didn't notice actually. I've stopped using Windows Media Player altogether, and I was unimpressed by the iTunes port to Windows. But it wouldn't surprise me too much, because Microsoft has no creativity whatsoever. Fortunately, for people like me, there are a lot of third-party programmers that ARE creative and come up with wonderful products like Mozilla FireFox and Foobar 2000.

Sailfish wrote:It was playing on a crappy Dell with two cheap rather bad sounding speakers, the whole IE interface was cluttered and confusing mess and I had to keep killing these pop-up windows for porn all the time.

You have my sympathies, sort of. There is no love lost between me, Dell and IE. You trashing the speakers shows very little class, but hey, I suppose I DID trash Apple's stock mouse.

Anyways, these days, I only use Internet Explorer if the site I'm on requires it. I don't even see the intellliText links that everyone has been complaining about on this site.

Bluebeetle69 · Post by **Bluebeetle69** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:55 am

For your Info it's not an established fact that Xerox invented the GUI.
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?pr ... 0by%20Date

on this page it lists the innovations that apple introduced with it's GUI
(smalltalk was the Xerox GUI)
quote
Smalltalk has no Finder, and no need for one, really. Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group, along with many other unique concepts: resources and dual-fork files for storing layout and international information apart from code; definition procedures; drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document, disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the clipboard; multiple views of the file system; desk accessories; and control panels, among others. The Lisa group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw, the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.

You'll notice a few things you use daily debuted with the Mac like drag and drop from window to window etc etc

You say
"technological innovation? Perhaps in software but certainly not hardware".

History shows
"The hardware itself was an amazing step forward as well. It offered an all-in-one design, four-voice sound, small footprint, clock, auto-eject floppies, serial ports, and so on. The small, portable, appealing case was a serious departure from the ugly- box-on-an-ugly-box PC world, thanks to Jerry Manock and his crew. Even the packaging showed amazing creativity and passion - do any of you remember unpacking an original 128K Mac? The Mac, the unpacking instructions, the profusely-illustrated and beautifully- written manuals, and the animated practice program with audio cassette were tastefully packaged in a cardboard box with Picasso- style graphics on the side".

Bluebeetle69 · Post by **Bluebeetle69** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:00 am

Oh Dear!!

Quote
"selling relatively inexpensive hardware that's been marked up considerably".

Take a look at the inexpensive hardware in the link below

http://www.billnoll.com/g5/010/

please post a pic of the internals of your PC

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:27 am

Bluebeetle69 wrote:For your Info it's not an established fact that Xerox invented the GUI.
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?pr ... 0by%20Date

*sigh* you're right. It was invented by Ivan Sutherland who was at MIT at the time. Smalltalk had their implementation of it first. That is UNDISPUTED, except by Mac people who keep making the claim that Apple invented the GUI.

Bluebeetle69 wrote:on this page it lists the innovations that apple introduced with it's GUI
(smalltalk was the Xerox GUI)
quote
Smalltalk has no Finder, and no need for one, really. Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group, along with many other unique concepts: resources and dual-fork files for storing layout and international information apart from code; definition procedures; drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document, disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the clipboard; multiple views of the file system; desk accessories; and control panels, among others. The Lisa group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw, the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.

You'll notice a few things you use daily debuted with the Mac like drag and drop from window to window etc etc

Improving the GUI is a lot different than inventing it. Windows has done some GUI improvements too, you know.

Bluebeetle69 wrote:History shows
"The hardware itself was an amazing step forward as well. It offered an all-in-one design, four-voice sound, small footprint, clock, auto-eject floppies, serial ports, and so on. The small, portable, appealing case was a serious departure from the ugly- box-on-an-ugly-box PC world, thanks to Jerry Manock and his crew. Even the packaging showed amazing creativity and passion - do any of you remember unpacking an original 128K Mac? The Mac, the unpacking instructions, the profusely-illustrated and beautifully- written manuals, and the animated practice program with audio cassette were tastefully packaged in a cardboard box with Picasso- style graphics on the side".

I always thought the all-in-one design was rather limiting, since I prefered to have the ability to move my monitor as I saw fit. I actually hated the auto-eject floppies, because inevitably, I'd leave the floppy in the computer after I shut it down, so I'd have to boot it up just to eject the floppy. Brilliant design idea.

Should I go hunt around for a Microsoft developer to comment on how revolutionary Windows NT was?

Bluebeetle69 wrote:Take a look at the inexpensive hardware in the link below
http://www.billnoll.com/g5/010/
please post a pic of the internals of your PC

I've seen it. Why don't YOU post a pic of the internals of your Mac? Let's see how your picture taking skills are. But if you insist:

aphonos · Post by **aphonos** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:35 am

In general, this has gotten pretty entertaining.

sthayashi wrote:I voted no. Mostly due to bad experiences with previous Macs, and due to the fanaticism of the Mac users that I know.

To pour fuel on the fire

, I think the last point has been well established in this thread.

/dons fire-proof suit.

HammerSandwich · Post by **HammerSandwich** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:02 am

Wired's recent article on GUI history

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:10 am

Sketchpad: The First Interactive Computer Graphics

Post by **Rusty075** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:19 pm

Damn, I forgot my marshmallows!

A couple of late points to make:

1. Spyware/Adware: Spyware and adware are not some sort of spontaineously erupting organism that spung to life on its own. Its a marketing tool designed to make money. (which unfortunately, like spam, it does) The makers of it use it to target the largest possible market. Think of it like advertising: there's about the same percentage of people in the US that speak Chinese as there are people the use Mac's. How many Chinese language commercials do you see on TV? If Mac's were 95% of the market you would see more spyware/adware/virii aimed at it. As many as Windows has? No. But you would see more. The vast majority of the programs that infect Windows machines are installed (knowingly or unknowingly) by their user, its not likely that Mac users would be much different.

2: Hardware/Software: Apple is essentially a software company now-a-days. They maintain control over the hardware side for a couple of important reasons: Compatibilty and Money. By limiting the number of hardware options they make their lives easier, OSX 10.2 does not have to have drivers for ancient hardware, unlike windows. And money: Apple tweaks the spec's for the hardware just enough to be sure that opensource PC hardware won't work, so that they can charge the licensing fee. There's nothing wrong with that, btw, if it wasn't for the licensing Apple would have long since gone the way of the Commodore. You simply don't make enough off of the software and electronic trinkets (like the ipod) to pay for the R&D required. That's also why you will never see an x86 port of OS X: all the profit margin is in the hardware. (why else do you think M$ is so desperate to get some control over hardware?

)

3: "Innovation" The market simply doesn't care who "invented" anything. If they did we'd all be driving Mercedes', not Honda's. Its all about the implementation. If Apple did "invent" half the stuff they claim to have, its their own fault for not protecting their intellectual property.

//dons his asbestos underwear//

An open-ended question to the Job-ites:

If Mac's are faster, easier, prettier, and more secure....why is Apple's market share permanently in the sub 5% range?

For the PC'ers in here, please let the Mac guys have a chance to answer that before you jump in with your own thoughts.

//drops can of gasoline and runs away//

Bluebeetle69 · Post by **Bluebeetle69** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:43 pm

An open-ended question to the Job-ites:

If Mac's are faster, easier, prettier, and more secure....why is Apple's market share permanently in the sub 5% range?

Well by the same token Mcdonalds must make better food than a Michelin recommended restaurant.

The most commercially successful products are rarely the best, just normally ok for the average person on a price/performance.

fact: PC's are a better bang for your buck-simple!
So if Joe public goes to buy a computer he'll buy the one he knows-Windows!
Most people don't care how well it performs they just want "good enough"
and Windows and a PC fit that criterion.

Realistically I don't even expect them to know Mac even exists let alone to be brave enough to actually use one

Zipity_Du_da · Post by **Zipity_Du_da** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:37 pm

sthayashi wrote:<Begin flamewar mode>
If I had the cash, I DO want a Mac. I've figured out a good use for it. I could use it to write viruses specifically tailored to Mac users (although getting the virus out would be a problem). But in the meantime, I could use a Mac and find all the little details where it sucks compared to a PC.

This is not only a bigoted remark, it gives projects like this a bad name...

Any leash laws on this site?

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:08 pm

Zipity_Du_da wrote:
sthayashi wrote:<Begin flamewar mode>
If I had the cash, I DO want a Mac. I've figured out a good use for it. I could use it to write viruses specifically tailored to Mac users (although getting the virus out would be a problem). But in the meantime, I could use a Mac and find all the little details where it sucks compared to a PC.
This is not only a bigoted remark, it gives projects like this a bad name...

Any leash laws on this site?

You're right. I'm in rather gross violation of the guidelines #7 and #8 posted in the Newcomer's section. I can't find any specific terms of service aside from that, but the Newbie guidelines should be sufficient enough.

I formally and publicly apologize for any threatening remarks I may have made, direct or indirect, towards any specific users. My statement about using Macs to write viruses is unjustified and uncalled for. The views that I have and share are not necessarily representative of the views of this site, its reviewers or its maintainers, nor should it reflect upon their character.

A Mac may come into my possession far sooner than I expected. I'd rather not publicly explain how that will happen since it is not my decision. If you really want to know the full story, PM me and I'll tell you. Rest assured, if and when it comes into my possession, I will not attempt to write viruses for it. I will, however, attempt to benchmark it and critique it in comparison to a PC platform.

speedfreak · Post by **speedfreak** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:29 pm

More pics for Seal

As requested, I stuck a cd in the pic to help you gauge the size.

Would You Get A Mac?

Would you get a mac?