Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:48 am
Whenever someone says the second coming is near I always respond, "Good, then I can stop funding and worrying about my 401K."
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I was using a metaphor (because I obviously dont believe in sky-faeries), the simple fact that the Catholic church has hidden this information, and dealt with these sick people itself and has not gone to the police suggests very strongly that a religious institution whose head is essentially God (but in reality the Pope because God does not exist), therefore the head is the Pope (who claims to speak directly to God) therefore this is being covered up in the name of God by a tax evading company that sells God to people.God does not protect criminal, but God forgives those who ask for it.
I am very glad that you agree, unfortunately few of these child rapists actually have been, many have been hidden by the Catholic Church.All of this does not mean they should not be tried by humans.
I cant deplore that enough, it obviously has no effect whatsowever, as some of these child rapists have (presumably) been "forgiven", and have been shipped off to another country where they have raped more children. Forgiveness is worthless to these immoral evil people, a very very long prison sentence would have stopped them raping more children, forgiveness has done nothing at all.They will be forgiven spiritually speaking, not humanely speaking !!
There is unless the religion hides it from the state, which is a huge part of this huge scandal.That's also called separation between religion and state.
Sadly the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the best religion to answer these questions in their 8 I'd really rather you didn'ts:andyb wrote:a.) Why did you have your savage followers steal everything that I own and burn down my house because you saw a video on youtube that supposedly had a document that (your followers) are not allowed to desecrate, and had nothing at all to do with me except that I follow a different invisible impotent deity.
b.) We have taken vengeance upon you Kafir's for supposedly showing on youtube the burning of the Holy Qu'Ran, we in our rage will steal everything you own and burn your property, be grateful you were not there, we follow our hateful invisible impotent deity and protect his image including "teddy bears being named after him", but millions of people are allowed to be called "Mo".
1. I'd really rather you didn't act like a sanctimonious holier-than-thou ass when describing my noodly goodness. If some people don't believe in me, that's okay. Really, I'm not that vain. Besides, this isn't about them so don't change the subject.
2. I'd really rather you didn't use my existence as a means to oppress, subjugate, punish, eviscerate, and/or, you know, be mean to others. I don't require sacrifices, and purity is for drinking water, not people.
3. I'd really rather you didn't judge people for the way they look, or how they dress, or the way they talk, or, well, just play nice, okay? Oh, and get this into your thick heads: woman = person. man = person. Samey = Samey. One is not better than the other, unless we're talking about fashion and I'm sorry, but I gave that to women and some guys who know the difference between teal and fuchsia.
4. I'd really rather you didn't indulge in conduct that offends yourself, or your willing, consenting partner of legal age AND mental maturity. As for anyone who might object, I think the expression is "go fuck yourself," unless they find that offensive in which case they can turn off the TV for once and go for a walk for a change.
5. I'd really rather you didn't challenge the bigoted, misogynistic, hateful ideas of others on an empty stomach. Eat, then go after the bitches.
6. I'd really rather you didn't build multi million-dollar synagogues / churches / temples / mosques / shrines to my noodly goodness when the money could be better spent (take your pick):
I. Ending poverty
II. Curing diseases
III. Living in peace, loving with passion, and lowering the cost of cable
I might be a complex-carbohydrate omniscient being, but I enjoy the simple things in life. I ought to know. I AM the creator.
7. I'd really rather you didn't go around telling people I talk to you. You're not that interesting. Get over yourself. And I told you to love your fellow man, can't you take a hint?
8. I'd really rather you didn't do unto others as you would have them do unto you if you are into, um, stuff that uses a lot of leather/lubricant/vaseline. If the other person is into it, however (pursuant to #4), then have at it, take pictures, and for the love of Mike, wear a CONDOM! Honestly, it's a piece of rubber. If I didn't want it to feel good when you did it I would have added spikes, or something.
Which branch, the CFM split a few years ago...Sadly the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the best religion to answer these questions in their 8 I'd really rather you didn'ts:
How very true, the worlds only religion that generates hunger rather than hate.FSM : The only religion that makes you hungry (and that you can talk about without anyone getting hurt)
GamingGod... Is that you?.....aristide1 wrote:And how about Natalie Portmans phone number
I know this one! He didn't, and they weren't his followers. They were a few of the power-hungry psychopaths residing in that region of the world and a horde of those too lazy, illiterate, and/or impoverished to study their own holy book.andyb wrote:Why did you have your savage followers steal everything that I own and burn down my house because you saw a video on youtube that supposedly had a document that (your followers) are not allowed to desecrate, and had nothing at all to do with me except that I follow a different invisible impotent deity.
Let me get this straight: you wish to discard almost all available data and focus exclusively on a time-frame in which no atheist state exists? And I suppose you'll want to keep ignoring all the religionists who aren't murderous nutjobs and all the murderous nutjobs that aren't religionists? How scientific of you.andyb wrote:Don't even bother mentioning Stalin, Hitler or Pol Pot, lets talk about the last 7 years, not the last 70 years.
There is no evidence for their being a God. Religion is human weakness to what people can't understand when they are unscientific and do not look for logical explanations. It has become part of culture down the ages, nothing else.Irrelevant wrote:You say there is no god? Prove it.
If it wasn't for the church burning people as heretics think how much further science would have advanced through the middle ages. There would have been no discernable 'renaissance' because we'd have been working at that same pace all of the way through from classical times to our current industrialised self.Irrelevant wrote:You say religion is a negative influence? Prove it.
I was being "facetious" and "sarcastic. Below is the link for the rarely used word facetious that many people will not be familiar with (both native English speakers and others).I know this one! He didn't, and they weren't his followers. They were a few of the power-hungry psychopaths residing in that region of the world and a horde of those too lazy, illiterate, and/or impoverished to study their own holy book.
My point was very simple, to not tread a path that has been worn down by many arguments, many times, over many years... If you want to you can read this very very long thread from the beginning - you will find all of the names of those evil murderous bastards mentioned followed by the counter arguments, which is why I dont want to be bored to death by doing that all-over again.Let me get this straight: you wish to discard almost all available data and focus exclusively on a time-frame in which no atheist state exists? And I suppose you'll want to keep ignoring all the religionists who aren't murderous nutjobs and all the murderous nutjobs that aren't religionists? How scientific of you.
This argument has been squashed a thousand times already, but here I go again.... I (me, personally) get things wrong sometimes, I have the balls to own up to being wrong because I know that a sensible and clever person will recognise that as a positive reflection on me as a human being rather than as a negative. If you want too search these very forums you will find (a few years ago I believe) me arguing that the "Moon Landings" were faked in a studio - as a person who understands the "scientific method" and the principles behind it I bowed down to the "evidence" presented to me by many other forum members and publicly changed my stance.Seriously, d00d, you've got as much blind faith as a Bible-thumper and as much self-righteous outrage as a Wahhabi. You say there is no god? Prove it. You say religion is a negative influence? Prove it. It's your turn to bear the burden of proof.
No. Stop turning things round. Science works by fact, theory and hypothesis. We don't 'claim' that god does not exist, there is no evidence for a god and the proof being the overwhelming weight of Scientific progress over the last 5000+ years. I hence have no 'belief' that there is no god, there is simply no scientific evidence for a god.Irrelevant wrote:So in this case, andyb and edh, you are the believers. You both claimed that god doesn’t exist. That is a belief.
They are hypotheses to explain phenomena. This means that we have something testable which shows there is evidence for dark energy and dark matter. The belief/hypothesis/theory/fact confusion is very familiar given those that oppose evolution with the supposition that it is 'only a theory'. It is not a strong argument as it shows a lack of understanding. A hypothesis is very different from a belief.Irrelevant wrote:Religionists aren’t the only ones with invisible teapots. What do you think dark energy and dark matter are?
It's a hypothesis, not a belief. This is very different. Is the presence of a god testable? No. Is the existence of dark matter and dark energy testable? Yes. Hence it is a hypothesis.Irrelevant wrote:They’re invisible, “seen” only by indirect observation, and they explain the otherwise-unexplainable. From a logical standpoint, how is that different from god?
Now there might be an element of trolling here. Would you please be so good as to explain your alternative 'theory'?Irrelevant wrote:Why can't scientists just admit they got gravity wrong?
I am not necessarily arguing one way or the other on the validity or usefulness of science, but your decision to rely on science in deciding whether or not God exists is an assumption and belief on your part that science is the appropriate way to know that. You cannot prove that science is the proper method to understand metaphysics.edh wrote:No. Stop turning things round. Science works by fact, theory and hypothesis. We don't 'claim' that god does not exist, there is no evidence for a god and the proof being the overwhelming weight of Scientific progress over the last 5000+ years. I hence have no 'belief' that there is no god, there is simply no scientific evidence for a god.
It's a hypothesis, not a belief. This is very different. Is the presence of a god testable? No. Is the existence of dark matter and dark energy testable? Yes. Hence it is a hypothesis.
I am not going to re-read all of your posts in this thread and as a reasonable person I will assume that you are correct and have not directly claimed that, however you did say "You say there is no god? Prove it." that is what I am trying to get across to you.At what point did I claim that God exists or that the Rapture was coming, andyb and edh? In all of my posts, I have played the part of a skeptic, attacking your reasoning and not your conclusions.
You have missed the point of the whole concept of "burden of proof", and yes in relation to the classic "does God exist" question the burden of proof lies entirely with the people who claim that God does exist for the following reason - any and all (meaningful and measurable) evidence to support the idea that God exists has been proven to be either false or unprovable, however the evidence to suggest that God does NOT exist is enormous and the parties trying to prove otherwise have provided little or nothing to counter the argument that God does not exist.You claim there is no god because there is no evidence of one (ie, the absence of proof is disproof), and that “the burden of proof is upon the religious.” Ironically, these are logical equivalents to what Russell’s teapot disproved: “You must believe as I do because you can’t prove me wrong.” In fact, the burden of proof is upon the believer, and no matter what that belief is, the absence of disproof is not proof, and the absence of proof is not disproof (ie, the default position for any logical proposition is "maybe,” with optional qualification).
So in this case, andyb and edh, you are the believers. You both claimed that god doesn’t exist. That is a belief. Your failure to prove your belief (an inevitability, according to Russell) doesn’t prove it false, but it does prove that it is faith-based and irrational.
Please tell me whether the following statement would be considered "football" or "hooliganism"Blaming religion for violence is like blaming football for hooliganism. It’s mistaking correlation for causation, and humans for rational animals. Group violence is driven primarily by the psychological satisfaction derived from acting out the “us vs. them” narrative. What distinguishes “us” from “them” is irrelevant and quite possibly manufactured for just that purpose.
I think we are arguing from a similar direction on a number of points here. I dont only blame religion for all of the ills of this world, I also blame cultism and ideologies that appear in many forms not just religious forms as well as those who simply want power, however due to the overwhelming majority of people on this planet who are religious and the ridiculous amount of religious violence between different religious groups it is impossible to deny that religious violence exists.So what makes religion so different from all the other ideologies and causes people claim to fight for? You really think people wouldn’t find some other excuse to behave badly? Judging by what has occurred in atheist states (sorry, andyb, but ignoring them is like performing an experiment without a test group), the answer is no.
I dont know what dark matter/energy are, I have never read much on the subject at all. Dark matter/energy is being worked on by many scientists in many different ways to identify whether it does actually exist, and if so what it is and how better to understand it. This cannot be comparable with religion in any way as religion by definition is "the true word of God" and as such anything that disagrees with religion is thrown out as being incorrect or Blasphemous because religion makes people stupid by telling them that we already know everything that we ever need to know - science does the exact opposite.Religionists aren’t the only ones with invisible teapots. What do you think dark energy and dark matter are? They’re invisible, “seen” only by indirect observation, and they explain the otherwise-unexplainable.
I am sure they will at some point in the future "Gravitational Theory" will be revised when a better more accurate Theory is widely accepted, it has already been revised several times there is nothing to say that we know everything there is to know about gravity.Why can't scientists just admit they got gravity wrong?
I would not disagree with the fact that science does sometimes get stuck in a rut (part of being human I suppose), and then someone (still human) comes along and re-writes science.... thats what science does, it is constantly striving for better answers and more knowledge than what we have now. A perfect example of scientists getting things wrong, and then another scientist comes along and re-defined our knowledge.There is no doubt that the scientific method is a powerful tool, but scientists are just as human as the rest of us. They'd have to be gods themselves for their work to be free of ego, preconception, and groupthink.
I agree totally, which is why I sometimes catching myself stating as though it is proven fact that God does NOT exist, rather than me saying that I am 99.999% certain that God does not exist, which is true as I cannot prove the extra 0.001%Seriously, though, sometimes we could all benefit from a little more uncertainty and a lot more self-awareness. All too often, our made-up minds are armored by cognitive dissonance and impervious to reality. If I hadn't seen it so often in others, I'd still have plenty of examples in myself, but for some reason, I've forgotten most of them.
The same question could be applied to "metaphysics" itself, is "metaphysics" even the appropriate description of the subject.?I am not necessarily arguing one way or the other on the validity or usefulness of science, but your decision to rely on science in deciding whether or not God exists is an assumption and belief on your part that science is the appropriate way to know that. You cannot prove that science is the proper method to understand metaphysics.
So long as we all agree that a person's (unproven) beliefs about the methodology to be used to determine whether God exists plays an outcome in the results of whether you believe or don't believe that God exists, that is OK with me. Any demand that reason alone be used to decide whether God exists is as much an unproven "belief" as any unproven believe that some people have that God does exist.andyb wrote:The same question could be applied to "metaphysics" itself, is "metaphysics" even the appropriate description of the subject.?
Andy
I would personally never sacrifice reason in the pursuit of anything, but sadly some people do.So long as we all agree that a person's (unproven) beliefs about the methodology to be used to determine whether God exists plays an outcome in the results of whether you believe or don't believe that God exists, that is OK with me. Any demand that reason alone be used to decide whether God exists is as much an unproven "belief" as any unproven believe that some people have that God does exist.
I doubt that "metaphysical knowledge" exists, and until there is some reasonable evidence to support it I wont change my opinion, my opinion does not just cover God, the soul, ghosts or magic, but all other forms of the supernatural such as visitations, talking to the dead, angels, faith healing, saints, afterlife or superstitions etc. Most of these areas have been totally dismissed by either science or reason, and as I shall not drop either science or reason I find it almost impossible to believe that anything supernatural exists, regardless of the meaning of "exist".Of course, some believe that there is no such thing as metaphysical knowledge (knowledge of God, the soul, etc), but virtually all philosophers (even atheists and agnostics) do agree that if there were such a thing as metaphysical knowledge, reason alone could not be used to comprehend it or to prove its existence.
Its actually your "Flora" that will eat you long before anything breaks into the coffin (providing of course that you are buried when you die).There is something after life !!!! How could you say there isn't ???
There are multiple things in fact... LOTS of things : little worms eating you
That is part of your personal belief system. It cannot be proven that reason is superior in understanding all things.andyb wrote:I would personally never sacrifice reason in the pursuit of anything, but sadly some people do.
Yes, I understand, your sole reliance on reason and science is part of your "belief" system. Using that criteria alone, your conclusions are logical, but are a tautology, just like one who believes that God does exist. I refer you to Immanuel Kant (or even David Hume) for more information on this subject.andyb wrote:I doubt that "metaphysical knowledge" exists, and until there is some reasonable evidence to support it I wont change my opinion, my opinion does not just cover God, the soul, ghosts or magic, but all other forms of the supernatural such as visitations, talking to the dead, angels, faith healing, saints, afterlife or superstitions etc. Most of these areas have been totally dismissed by either science or reason, and as I shall not drop either science or reason I find it almost impossible to believe that anything supernatural exists, regardless of the meaning of "exist".
Of all the arguments I have heard regarding the existence of God, saying that there must be an after-life for humans after they die is not at all convincing. Not everyone who believes that God exists, believe that a personal after-life awaits us, and even among those who do, they are many different opinions about what that after-life actually is. The fact that it is not true that there must be a personal after-life awaiting us, does not IMO prove that God does not exist. Even using reason and logic, that would be a non sequitur to conclude on that basis that God cannot exist.andyb wrote:Changing the subject a little away from "metaphysics"....
Sadly most of the pro-God arguments that crop up when the pro-God parties evidence fails usually result in pathetic arguments such as "But there must be something after life", I have been told that by someone I used to work with, the emphasis is on the word "must", this is called "wish-thinking", as though wishing something to be true makes it so, and/or believing in something such as an afterlife against all reason and evidence which is called a "delusion".
As a person who is reasonable I would agree.That is part of your personal belief system. It cannot be proven that reason is superior in understanding all things.
I have read snippets written by both of those fine thinkers, but like most writings these bits of text were evidence against the belief in the supernatural rather than for it.Yes, I understand, your sole reliance on reason and science is part of your "belief" system. Using that criteria alone, your conclusions are logical, but are a tautology, just like one who believes that God does exist. I refer you to Immanuel Kant (or even David Hume) for more information on this subject.
I dont doubt that there are God believers who dont believe in an afterlife, however it is a significant trend amongst the religious - the particulars are all laid out in their respective holy books, some believe in heaven, some in heaven and hell, some in heaven and limbo and hell (even though limbo has been officially withdrawn), some believe that suicide whilst murdering many other people will get you into heaven, some believe in re-incarnation, etc. This is one of the biggest fallacies with religions of all types, and should be grouped alongside the questions of "why" are there 4000+ types of religion on the planet as we speak, why have there been thousands before that have been wiped out, why are there so many gods competing for peoples worship, why do things like "hell" and "limbo" get created and then (limbo only) after mentally torturing millions of people get dropped, there is only one logical answer, religion is man made - if it was created by a single all powerful all-knowing God then we wouldn't have thousands of religions with its different factions constantly murdering each other, we would have just one religion and one god.... unless god is a pervert and enjoys watching us in this perpetual state of hatred and violence (which if various holy books were true would be an accurate description).Of all the arguments I have heard regarding the existence of God, saying that there must be an after-life for humans after they die is not at all convincing. Not everyone who believes that God exists, believe that a personal after-life awaits us, and even among those who do, they are many different opinions about what that after-life actually is.
I have no problem with accepting "Einstein's God" or a similar concept along the lines of "god is everything that we do not yet know/understand" (which seems to be broadly similar to several of the founding fathers concept of "god") that is called "Deism". "Theism" is where "a personal god that listens to yours prayers, watches you masturbate and frowns on you eating certain types of food". I have a great deal more respect for someone who is a Deist rather than a Theist because a Deist by definition cannot really be a "true believer" in a religion because as far as I am aware there is no such religion that simply says that "God is everything that we dont yet know/understand, so there is no holy book, no priests, no holy places or shrines and there is no point praying because god wont answer even if god can hear you and god wont interfere in your life in any way".However, if one wants to argue that there must be (or at least may be) something (which of course is not a thing at all) that existed before the Big Bang, and before time and space and the physical universe came into existence (what Aristotle called the Prime Mover), that sounds a little more convincing, but one still cannot prove the existence of a non-physical entity using the reason and logic alone (again, I refer you to the quotation from Kant in my previous post).
SCIENCE IS NOT REASON (=Philosophy).m0002a wrote:Any demand that reason alone be used to decide whether God exists is as much an unproven "belief" as any unproven believe that some people have that God does exist.
They certainly claimed that there is no rational proof whether God exists (and whether one could know anything about God via reason), but that had nothing to do with their personal belief about God one way or the other that they held despite the lack of rational proof.andyb wrote:I have read snippets written by both of those fine thinkers, but like most writings these bits of text were evidence against the belief in the supernatural rather than for it.
I would completely disagree with the statement that your beliefs about science are not like a religion. You may change your mind about certain things, but not likely to change your mind in the supremacy of science and reason as the sole method for understanding the world, especially on the question of whether God exists. You have provided no proof that reason can know these questions (and Kant has explicitly said that reason cannot know them), so your sole reliance on reason and science in these matters is a "belief" just like any other religion.andyb wrote:I best add (before anyone else has the same train of thought as I have) that my "beliefs" as you put them are not in any way comparable to a religion, as unlike the religious I dont believe that I will go to hell/heaven for doing or not doing certain things, I can and will change my viewpoint when I feel that the change of view is merited, I also dont belong to a "club" of other people who think the way that I do, there is nothing to pray for or to, there is no holy book and no church. As someone once mentioned (likely paraphrased), "trying to get a large amount of Atheists together in one place and at one time is like herding cats."
Yes, religion is man made. But why do persist with equating religion with the question of whether God exists? Religion has little to do with the subject, just as there are many non-scientists (and often unreasonable people) who believe in the supremacy of science and reason.andyb wrote:... religion is man made - if it was created by a single all powerful all-knowing God then we wouldn't have thousands of religions with its different factions constantly murdering each other, we would have just one religion and one god.... unless god is a pervert and enjoys watching us in this perpetual state of hatred and violence (which if various holy books were true would be an accurate description).
Could you provide a quote (translated from German to English) from Kant to substantiate that? Kant did not say we can only trust our own senses, nor did he state what you "quoted" above. I don't know where you are getting your interpretation of Kant, but it is completely inaccurate.tim851 wrote:SCIENCE IS NOT REASON (=Philosophy).
It's not Kant's idea that we can only trust our own senses. He just eloquently said "I have to see it with my own eyes!"
You are partially correct. The scientific method can be repeated (in theory), but your assumption that repeatability is preferable over non-repeatability is part of your belief system. That is, you assume that repeatability will provide all the knowledge you seek, but it cannot be proven to do so in all matters.tim851 wrote:The Scientific Method is founded upon repeatability. Facts must be independently reproducable and verifiable, thus enabling any scientist to experience it with their own senses. This is not just another belief-system. It's the opposite. It can be applied within any belief-system.
It is your (unproven) belief system that:tim851 wrote:God does not exist, as none of the proposed deities of the various religions could be independently verified. Any argument for their existence is just valid within the respective belief-system.
I was paraphrasing heavily to make a point.m0002a wrote:Could you provide a quote (translated from German to English) from Kant to substantiate that?
I won't waste time playing pseudo-philosophic children's games. You are deliberately misusing the term "belief system". You are argumenting like the Bomb in the movie "Dark Star".m0002a wrote:You are partially correct. The scientific method can be repeated (in theory), but your assumption that repeatability is preferable over non-repeatability is part of your belief system. That is, you assume that repeatability will provide all the knowledge you seek, but it cannot be proven to do so in all matters.
1. I don't have to. It's the great thing about science.m0002 wrote:It is your (unproven) belief system that:
1. God does not exist (you cannot prove that)
2. That the only way to know whether God exists is through science and reason (what you call "independent verification")