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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Reachable wrote:
Oh, no way! There was far more socialism in the U.S. -- not to mention northern Europe -- than there ever was in the Soviet Union or China. In fact there was pretty much no socialism at all in those two countries. There was 'nationalization' of industry, but without democracy it was meaningless in terms of socialism. All it was in Rusiia was essentially a single monopolistic corporation, the actual embodiment of the fulfillment of completely unregulated capitalism.

One of the great problems is how poorly those words "communism" and "socialism" are understood. Socialism is essentially a synonym for democracy. If you have a true democracy you will inevitably have a great deal of socialism (although here in the U.S., while we do have some, it could more accurately be called a "corporatocracy", where the government seems to exist to a large extent for the benefit of corporate interests.)

In the first half of the 20th century, states and political parties incorporated "Socialism" into their names to appear idealistic. Thus you had the National Socialist Party (Nazis) of Germany, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In both cases the word was meaningless, (although the Soviets intended to kind of stagger towards it at the starting gate before becoming completely lost.)

That's what I thought when I was a freshman in college. I later came to understand (as others have) that when you have government planned economy (socialism) you always (sooner or later) end up with government controlled everything (with less and less democracy). There is a striking correlation between the two that is not coincidental, our Utopian masturbatory wishes to the contrary.

If you would like to know more about the correlation between free markets and democracy (and conversely socialism and totalitarianism), trying reading Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" which is also available as a video series first shown on PBS and available here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 923164175#


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:59 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
It is a curse because communism has historically been associated with countries that have poor economic growth, and totalitarian governments (in every case where it has been tried). These are the facts, and not a knee jerk irrational reaction to the word "communism." It is like when you call someone a rapist, it is bad because they rape people, not just because the word rapist has a bad connotation apart from the behavior of the rapist.
Rapist is an excellent example. It is an extremely emotionally charged word. Calling someone a rapist additionally implies that they are a monster, on a very emotional level. This is the sort of curse-word-esque quality many people find in the word communist. It is not at all a reasoned, intellectual attack (and, in fact, many of the policies people paint as 'communist' or 'socialist' are actually fundamentally dependent on private industry). If they really meant 'communist' in the intellectual sense, then sure, let's discuss it. But it is more intended as slander, like if someone called Obama a rapist without any reason to believe the claim factually accurate.

m0002a wrote:
I not sure you are an authority on these matters, since Tiger Woods is 50% Thai-Chinese, 25% African, 12.5% Caucasian (white as you call it), and 12.5% Native American Indian.
My point, twice-over: I have no idea about Tiger Wood's current racial heritage, and you clearly either had to look it up or have a strange propensity for such information :)

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:25 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Reachable wrote:
Oh, no way! There was far more socialism in the U.S. -- not to mention northern Europe -- than there ever was in the Soviet Union or China. In fact there was pretty much no socialism at all in those two countries. There was 'nationalization' of industry, but without democracy it was meaningless in terms of socialism. All it was in Rusiia was essentially a single monopolistic corporation, the actual embodiment of the fulfillment of completely unregulated capitalism.

One of the great problems is how poorly those words "communism" and "socialism" are understood. Socialism is essentially a synonym for democracy. If you have a true democracy you will inevitably have a great deal of socialism (although here in the U.S., while we do have some, it could more accurately be called a "corporatocracy", where the government seems to exist to a large extent for the benefit of corporate interests.)

In the first half of the 20th century, states and political parties incorporated "Socialism" into their names to appear idealistic. Thus you had the National Socialist Party (Nazis) of Germany, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In both cases the word was meaningless, (although the Soviets intended to kind of stagger towards it at the starting gate before becoming completely lost.)

That's what I thought when I was a freshman in college. I later came to understand (as others have) that when you have government planned economy (socialism) you always (sooner or later) end up with government controlled everything (with less and less democracy). There is a striking correlation between the two that is not coincidental, our Utopian masturbatory wishes to the contrary.

If you would like to know more about the correlation between free markets and democracy (and conversely socialism and totalitarianism), trying reading Milton Friedman's "Free to Choose" which is also available as a video series first shown on PBS and available here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 923164175#

True socialism would not be a government planned economy. It would be the progressive disempowering of powerful interests whose interests are not in the interests of the common good. It's accomplished with a democratically elected government, and only with a democratically elected government, and it happens gradually.

The Bolsheviks and the Maoists were already in control of everything when they instituted their 'reforms'.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Reachable wrote:
One of the great problems is how poorly those words "communism" and "socialism" are understood.

Which is why it's used every 10 minutes on Faux News.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:01 pm 
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andymcca wrote:
Rapist is an excellent example. It is an extremely emotionally charged word. Calling someone a rapist additionally implies that they are a monster, on a very emotional level. This is the sort of curse-word-esque quality many people find in the word communist. It is not at all a reasoned, intellectual attack (and, in fact, many of the policies people paint as 'communist' or 'socialist' are actually fundamentally dependent on private industry). If they really meant 'communist' in the intellectual sense, then sure, let's discuss it. But it is more intended as slander, like if someone called Obama a rapist without any reason to believe the claim factually accurate.

Are you saying the being a rapist is OK, and that the term is just an emotional reaction even if the accused is guilty? The reason that it is an emotionally charged term is that rape is a bad thing, not just because of a misunderstanding of what rape is. People who believe that communism is a bad thing may have a similar reaction about that term, and you may disagree with them on that, but I suppose that you have similar emotional reactions to terms such as capitalism, et al.

andymcca wrote:
My point, twice-over: I have no idea about Tiger Wood's current racial heritage, and you clearly either had to look it up or have a strange propensity for such information :)

My recollection is that you factually stated that Woods was half Vietnamese, yet accuse others of making false claims about whether Obama is/was a Muslim. The fact of the matter is that Obama was a practicing Muslim from ages 6-10 when he lived with his devout Muslim step-father in Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world (although perhaps not entirely at his own free will since he was a child). Why the left-wing media keeps denying this is not exactly a mystery, but they deny it nonetheless.

Now whether that makes Obama a Muslim right now is a different matter, but anybody who thinks he is really a Christian (as the left-wing media also claims) is just plain stupid. As I said before, he is either an atheist (like his natural father) or an agnostic.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Reachable wrote:
True socialism would not be a government planned economy. It would be the progressive disempowering of powerful interests whose interests are not in the interests of the common good. It's accomplished with a democratically elected government, and only with a democratically elected government, and it happens gradually.

The Bolsheviks and the Maoists were already in control of everything when they instituted their 'reforms'.

Yes, we have all heard this before, that if only they had done it "correctly" it would have worked. Not so. All socialist nations that started with, or promised, democratically elected governments eventually turn to non-democratic governments because that is nature of socialism. And even if that were so (only in your imagination), the majority should have very strict limitations on being able to impose its will on the legitimate private interests of the minority, as it always does when a society determines what "is in the common good," rather than people individually deciding for themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:43 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Are you saying the being a rapist is OK, and that the term is just an emotional reaction even if the accused is guilty? The reason that it is an emotionally charged term is that rape is a bad thing, not just because of a misunderstanding of what rape is. People who believe that communism is a bad thing may have a similar reaction about that term, and you may disagree with them on that, but I suppose that you have similar emotional reactions to terms such as capitalism, et al.
A) Are you arguing that communist is on par with rapist? We could sit around making hyperbolic arguments all day, but that is not the avenue of reasoned, civil discussion.
B) I am not claiming whether communism is good or bad, as a concept or in practice. I am arguing that it is being used as slander, not in any qualitatively relevant way.
C) You have incorrectly imputed that I am an communist? And even if I were, capitalism would be something to debate, not something to use as a weapon of words.

m0002a wrote:
My recollection is that you factually stated that Woods was half Vietnamese, yet accuse others of making false claims about whether Obama is/was a Muslim. The fact of the matter is that Obama was a practicing Muslim from ages 6-10 when he lived with his devout Muslim step-father in Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation in the world (although perhaps not entirely at his own free will since he was a child). Why the left-wing media keeps denying this is not exactly a mystery, but they deny it nonetheless.

Now whether that makes Obama a Muslim right now is a different matter, but anybody who thinks he is really a Christian (as the left-wing media also claims) is just plain stupid. As I said before, he is either an atheist (like his natural father) or an agnostic.
I grant that I was mistaken. It was an honest mistake. It was neither a central facet of my arguement nor did I claim to be an expert. I do appreciate the correction, however. Here is an interesting turn of the conversation: I am willing to accept a correction when someone points out a statement was wrong. In fact, if Tiger Woods was reading this I would apologize at length.

Edit: The last bit was meant to imply that certain media outlets (leaning any which way you look) spew crap even after it has been refuted. I just want to reiterate that none of this is meant to be aggressive or an attack. I just like debating things. I would argue the sky is not blue if I had any good points to make :)

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:39 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Reachable wrote:
True socialism would not be a government planned economy. It would be the progressive disempowering of powerful interests whose interests are not in the interests of the common good. It's accomplished with a democratically elected government, and only with a democratically elected government, and it happens gradually.

The Bolsheviks and the Maoists were already in control of everything when they instituted their 'reforms'.

Yes, we have all heard this before, that if only they had done it "correctly" it would have worked. Not so. All socialist nations that started with, or promised, democratically elected governments eventually turn to non-democratic governments because that is nature of socialism. And even if that were so (only in your imagination), the majority should have very strict limitations on being able to impose its will on the legitimate private interests of the minority, as it always does when a society determines what "is in the common good," rather than people individually deciding for themselves.


I would agree concerning hardcore marxism, but of course you can have a middle ground - true social liberalism - with state owned energy and local transportation and infra structure, healthcare, more minor monpolies like on alcohol and pharmacies and so on.
There are many small, but valueable, democratic victories in this. For example - the governing right in Sweden has sold out "The pharmacy", the state owned monopoly on selling medicine. Now poor and sick, often old, people can't get their medicine on interest free payment plans which they could before. The private owned companies can't or wont take the risk.
Also the consumption of medicine has sky rocketed since the monopoly was broken. Prices have not gone down. It is just more available.. Atypical vendors dont always know what they are selling, and can't give advice, which of course was a given in the state owned pharmacies. Not that there aren't real pharmacies. It just seems to make sense to have a non surplus model around such important matters. Same with limiting alcohol, but many disagree.
We had a "Work institute" researching working conditions, health, ethics, effects etc. and you may guess whos interest that was in - bias or no bias, paid for by the state, and they pulled the plug on that. One of the first things they did. Which most Swedes aren't even aware of. Just to show the difference.
And then its the benefits of a generous health care insurance, which has gone down the drain as well.. It may have been too generous, but by just simply pulling the leaking bucket whole, instead of padding the leaks - while still missing some, people that before would have been cared for, and are eligible and honest, are now basically cast out. They have to sell everything they have or take loans from their families, the paperwork and stress is further compromising their health, some terminally ill. Probably what is normal in other countries, but it was a rude awakening for those affected being used to the Swedish wellfare state. And it hadn't needed to be, only 6 years ago things were different, yes our state economy was most likely leaking, and everyone had to pay for it, and it was not perfect. But that is what solidarity is about. And it was doable.
You can have some, from an american perspective, drastic meddling - at the very least, I remember Fox news headlining "Do we want to turn into Sweden?" not too long ago eheh - from the state without it turning into a Soviet state, or Cuba, even in a modern post-70's global economy.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:47 pm 
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andymcca wrote:
A) Are you arguing that communist is on par with rapist? We could sit around making hyperbolic arguments all day, but that is not the avenue of reasoned, civil discussion.
B) I am not claiming whether communism is good or bad, as a concept or in practice. I am arguing that it is being used as slander, not in any qualitatively relevant way.
C) You have incorrectly imputed that I am an communist? And even if I were, capitalism would be something to debate, not something to use as a weapon of words.

A) I am not comparing the two directly, but I don't think either labels are just slander if they are in fact correct. A communist has certain views about politics that are objectionable to most conservatives. These are differences in politics that are not imaginary, they are real.
B) I disagree for reasons already stated.
C) I haven't imputed anything, although I strongly suspect that youf views are pretty far left compared to most Americans (although maybe not for college sophomores).


Last edited by m0002a on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:57 pm 
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pes wrote:
I would agree concerning hardcore marxism, but of course you can have a middle ground - true social liberalism - with state owned energy and local transportation and infra structure, healthcare, more minor monpolies like on alcohol and pharmacies and so on.

Perhaps, but I am quite sure that Reachable is talking about true socialism, and not some mamby pamby half-arse version as you are suggesting. As I mentioned in a previous post, even the in the USA many services are government controlled or operated, although many times it is by local governments instead of the federal government. This is because in the United Sates the federal government does not have unlimited power, and many powers are reserved for the states (and local government) per the US Constitution.

10th Amendment of the US Constitution (part of the original Bill of Rights):
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

If you read the rest of the US Constitution, there are not many rights or powers specifically granted to the United States Federal government (at least not as many as most think).


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:19 am 
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m0002a wrote:
A) I am not comparing the two directly, but I don't think either labels are just slander if they are in fact correct.

Rapist is not a label! It is the fact that you have raped somebody. Murderer isn't a label either. It makes it pretty clear you killed somebody.
What does "Communist" make clear?

Quote:
C) I haven't imputed anything, although I strongly suspect that youf views are pretty far left compared to most Americans (although maybe not for college sophomores).

Aw, this is priceless.
Andy hasn't even hinted at what his political/economical stance is, but because he makes it a point not to connotate Communism as inherently bad, rather to debate it neutrally, you make him out to be a Leftie.
Case in point.

Oh, and please do tell us how you gathered the insight that Obama is really not a Christian!


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:10 am 
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I have to watch those videos you posted m0002a.... I'm quite baffled...

Reachable wrote:
Oh, no way! There was far more socialism in the U.S. -- not to mention northern Europe -- than there ever was in the Soviet Union or China. In fact there was pretty much no socialism at all in those two countries. There was 'nationalization' of industry, but without democracy it was meaningless in terms of socialism. All it was in Rusiia was essentially a single monopolistic corporation, the actual embodiment of the fulfillment of completely unregulated capitalism.

One of the great problems is how poorly those words "communism" and "socialism" are understood. Socialism is essentially a synonym for democracy. If you have a true democracy you will inevitably have a great deal of socialism (although here in the U.S., while we do have some, it could more accurately be called a "corporatocracy", where the government seems to exist to a large extent for the benefit of corporate interests.)

In the first half of the 20th century, states and political parties incorporated "Socialism" into their names to appear idealistic. Thus you had the National Socialist Party (Nazis) of Germany, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In both cases the word was meaningless, (although the Soviets intended to kind of stagger towards it at the starting gate before becoming completely lost.)

+1
Modern socialism is not about "government controlled everything" anymore, everybody knows that !! It's about caring for all the people that live in that country, that's all (by providing health care for example, so that everyone has access to the treatments they need without going bankrupt).

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Last edited by frenchie on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:14 am 
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Accusing someone of rape can get them attacked and/or murdered.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/140 ... -dead.html

Yes its a nasty crime that few could even think about defending, however it is absolutely true to state that it is an "overly-emotionally-charged" word for 1 reason that people often overlook in a blind fury of hatred and malice that rarely appears in such great quantities for numerous other crimes that may be as equally devestating on an emotional and physical level. And please dont think that I am in any way shape or form trying to defend such actions - I am simplky trying to point out that sometimes people dont pause to think, or to ask questions, they just get the baseball bat out and beat the shit out of someone whao has been accused of something well before they have been conviced, and even sometimes by nothing more than a rumour.

1,) People as a general rule take it as a true statement without even considering the evidence, and this can lead to the story above. The same issue has happened with people accused of molesting children (except RC priests who get away with it thanks to the protection of GOD). Also have a look at the link below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 38808.html

Comparing the accusation of "rapist" to the accusation of "communist" is all about where you are from, in some parts of the world "rapist" comes with a big glowing badge of honour that they show to their peers (read the link below to be totally disgusted).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8107039.stm

The accusation of "communist" I think is hilarious, its almost like accusing someone of "being religious" as that makes them evil in some way. Personally I despise religions in all of their forms, however, just like communism, religion is generally imparted on a "believers" children. Just like religion, it depends on where you live and how tight the stranglehold is when it comes to breaking free of your "parents view" and thinking for yourself.

In the UK there are 2 main political parties. On the left side of politics (just left of centre) we have "Labour", most Labour supporters are Labour because their parents are, and the "belief" that Labour are good and the others are bad lives through generations, even when voting Labour into power when you are young and poor was good (in theory) for you then does not mean that it is good for you when you are rich and middle aged, that person may still be a Labour voter when it does them no-good at all.

Political alliegences are often very strong, and in the world of politics there is only one thing stronger than the alliegence of a political party (movement). That is that "the others" are much worse, are evil, should be despised etc etc. This can obviously be extrapolated to other political systems such as "communism" is "hated" by most Americans in the same way that "Athiests" are "hated" by most Americans - the most obvious (I nearly said shocking, but its not) is that people "hate" things that they simply do not understand, and refuse to even try to understand them, they would rather just make lots of noise and keep on throwing mud because most people are stupid and are simply not capable of sensible rational thought.

And to finalise by using some excelent quotes by "Winston" to point out in wonderfully simple terms my points above, as well as some that others have already made.

"Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon."

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

"We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile—hoping it will eat him last."

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

"Once in a while you will stumble upon the truth but most of us manage to pick ourselves up and hurry along as if nothing had happened."

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

"Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fall, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.

Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth lasts for a thousand years, men will still say, “This was their finest hour!”

---

I think that about covers the above points with the last one added for fun, although with a scary amount of truth.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:10 pm 
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pes wrote:
I would agree concerning hardcore marxism, but of course you can have a middle ground - true social liberalism - with state owned energy and local transportation and infra structure, healthcare, more minor monpolies like on alcohol and pharmacies and so on.
There are many small, but valueable, democratic victories in this. For example - the governing right in Sweden has sold out "The pharmacy", the state owned monopoly on selling medicine. Now poor and sick, often old, people can't get their medicine on interest free payment plans which they could before. The private owned companies can't or wont take the risk.
Also the consumption of medicine has sky rocketed since the monopoly was broken. Prices have not gone down. It is just more available.. Atypical vendors dont always know what they are selling, and can't give advice, which of course was a given in the state owned pharmacies. Not that there aren't real pharmacies. It just seems to make sense to have a non surplus model around such important matters. Same with limiting alcohol, but many disagree.
We had a "Work institute" researching working conditions, health, ethics, effects etc. and you may guess whos interest that was in - bias or no bias, paid for by the state, and they pulled the plug on that. One of the first things they did. Which most Swedes aren't even aware of. Just to show the difference.
And then its the benefits of a generous health care insurance, which has gone down the drain as well.. It may have been too generous, but by just simply pulling the leaking bucket whole, instead of padding the leaks - while still missing some, people that before would have been cared for, and are eligible and honest, are now basically cast out. They have to sell everything they have or take loans from their families, the paperwork and stress is further compromising their health, some terminally ill. Probably what is normal in other countries, but it was a rude awakening for those affected being used to the Swedish wellfare state. And it hadn't needed to be, only 6 years ago things were different, yes our state economy was most likely leaking, and everyone had to pay for it, and it was not perfect. But that is what solidarity is about. And it was doable.
You can have some, from an american perspective, drastic meddling - at the very least, I remember Fox news headlining "Do we want to turn into Sweden?" not too long ago eheh - from the state without it turning into a Soviet state, or Cuba, even in a modern post-70's global economy.

What often happens is when you live in a country you learn not so much to think that its policies are right but that its values are right. And that leads to supporting its policies.
You like "solidarity". You have a feeling that equalization and regulation of people is good. If you were asked what are the great achievements of potential achievements of world history, you might say "equalized and regulated societies". (Or those that have this "solidarity".) Americans might answer "freedom" - they are taught to do this. What about production: of knowledge and science, art, religion, technology, industry... There are many answers. But "equalization" seems week to me.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:21 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
Well considering anybody that even remotely does what Christ or Mother Teresa would do is quickly branded a socialist it may be best to take a more detached approach.

What would Jesus have done if he came back and took power? (He rejected this in the New Testament accounts but suppose he changed his mind.) What would his attitude to free markets have been? Would he have had a preferred marginal tax rate? What were Mother Theresa's political positions? You have selected a couple of people that have not to my knowledge explicitly stated political positions that cast light on the socialism/capitalism question. So your comments, without further justification, don't have any force.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:10 pm 
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My statement is about how republican extremists view the world. The actions or views of the historical figures is not relevent. But there are indications that they would probably "spread the wealth" to a degree that the extremists here would not approve of.

You should be asking how modern day members of society managed to become misanthropes.

Quote:
you live in a country you learn not so much to think that its policies are right but that its values are right.

On the contrary, the lack of ethics is overwhelming everything. If I won the lottery I'd donate 50 hours a week to CREW and never take a vacation.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:43 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
As with all things in life consider the source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch

It may frighten you to know that O'Reilly is the most sensible of that bunch.


It's curious to see how Murdoch's newscast in Italy (Sky News) is among the best ones.
There aren't any distorted point of views, no pathetic Fox-like blind right wing support, the news are just presented in the way they REALLY are (and, to be honest, in a somewhat left-wing POV when dealing with Berlusconi's troubles, just because Berlusconi tried to frustrate Murdoch's plans in different ways).
It would be interesting to see how's the UK version of Murdoch's Sky Newscast.
On the contrary, FOX distorted news are more or less the same ones you could hear on one of the Berlusconi-owned newscasts, where everybody who disagrees either is a moron or a communist, or probably both.

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Last edited by flapane on Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:02 pm 
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flapane wrote:
It's curious to see how Murdoch's newscast in Italy (Sky News) is among the best ones.
There aren't any distorted point of views, no pathetic Fox-like blind right wing support, the news are just presented in the way they REALLY are (and, to be honest, in a somewhat left-wing POV, when dealing with Berlusconi's troubles).
It would be interesting to see how's the UK version of Murdoch's Sky Newscast.
On the contrary, FOX News extremist and distorted news are about the same ones you could hear on one of the Berlusconi-owned newscasts.

Fox News in the US is not (except occasionally) a news broadcast. It is primarily an opinion talk show format, like the other so-called cable news channels in the US (CNN, CNN-HLN, MSNBC, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Quote:
It would be interesting to see how's the UK version of Murdoch's Sky Newscast.


Likewise the Italian version, not that I would have a clue what is being said.

Generally they are good, I still prefer BBC News 24 as adverts for random shit I am not interested in annoy the crap out of me, if they didnt have adverts for junk I dont need and dont want I might watch it more than BBC News 24 - although saying that, I watch most of my news on my PC - that makes BBC News 24 the only option.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:09 pm 
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flapane wrote:
It's curious to see how Murdoch's newscast in Italy (Sky News) is among the best ones.
There aren't any distorted point of views,
Perhaps it is a less crowded market segment in Italy?

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:25 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Fox News in the US is not (except occasionally) a news broadcast. It is primarily an opinion talk show format, like the other so-called cable news channels in the US (CNN, CNN-HLN, MSNBC, etc).

Here's comes that famous 2 wrongs make a right argument again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:43 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Now whether that makes Obama a Muslim right now is a different matter, but anybody who thinks he is really a Christian (as the left-wing media also claims) is just plain stupid. As I said before, he is either an atheist (like his natural father) or an agnostic. .
Well that explains it all.

Nice to find such refined perspective here. Those racists rednecks think he is a Muslim, but we know better... we don't jump to unsupported positions like those hateful racists... that might label us as racist. Obviously he is not a Muslim.... he is an atheist or an agnostic. Obviously.

PS: That angry black pastor of his... remember... they one he used to pal around with.... he isn't a Christian... how could a black racist be Christian.... he either secretly practices voodoo rights or worships the black mambo. I just don't know which. It's only logical. That Christain stuff of his can't sincere.

I do have a question. Can a white racist also be a Christian? And if not, what religion must he or she be? What are your opinions?

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:28 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
m0002a wrote:
Fox News in the US is not (except occasionally) a news broadcast. It is primarily an opinion talk show format, like the other so-called cable news channels in the US (CNN, CNN-HLN, MSNBC, etc).

Here's comes that famous 2 wrongs make a right argument again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

And again.

So all the cable news networks have discovered that most people now get their news via the Internet, and non-partisan news shows have terrible ratings, and they can make a lot more money with opinion talk shows. Is that morally wrong or illegal? If you don't like it, then don't watch them, or invest in your own cable news network. Your reaction is a bit overblown. I don't understand where the "wrongs" are, other than you personally don't agree with the hosts of opinion shows on Fox (but you do agree with the hosts of opinion shows on MSNBC, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:42 pm 
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ces wrote:
m0002a wrote:
Now whether that makes Obama a Muslim right now is a different matter, but anybody who thinks he is really a Christian (as the left-wing media also claims) is just plain stupid. As I said before, he is either an atheist (like his natural father) or an agnostic. .
Well that explains it all.

Nice to find such refined perspective here. Those racists rednecks think he is a Muslim, but we know better... we don't jump to unsupported positions like those hateful racists... that might label us as racist. Obviously he is not a Muslim.... he is an atheist or an agnostic. Obviously.

PS: That angry black pastor of his... remember... they one he used to pal around with.... he isn't a Christian... how could a black racist be Christian.... he either secretly practices voodoo rights or worships the black mambo. I just don't know which. It's only logical. That Christain stuff of his can't sincere.

I do have a question. Can a white racist also be a Christian? And if not, what religion must he or she be? What are your opinions?

Not quite. Some claim he is a Muslim because he was in fact a practicing Muslim from about ages 6-10 when he lived with his devout Muslim step-father in Indonesia. It is a fact that Obama attended Mosques to pray during those years. But that is pretty young age for someone to freely exercise their own beliefs (IMO), so it doesn't necessarily mean that Obama is now a Muslim. But the failure of the mainstream media to report Obama's past religious experience as a child is just as bad as those who claim to know for certain that he is a Muslim now.

Yes, a white racist can be a Christian if he truly believes (not just claims he believes) in a supreme being and the divinity of Jesus Christ. But being a Christian is not any sort of test of whether someone is a good person or better than anyone else. You seem to think that by me calling Obama an atheist or agnostic that I am demeaning him. I don't know what gave you that idea.

It seems that you don't think that President Obama is really an atheist or agnostic. Is that correct?


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:41 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
You seem to think that...
I think there are a large number of people who have been tricked into voting against the economic and political interests of themselves, their family, their children and their children's children.... and are being used to bring America down.

I am highly confident you are one of them.

I don't know how another person can truly know what another person's faith is. When you are envisioning what President Obama's faith is I am fairly certain you are projecting your own thoughts on to him. So currently, or in the past, I suspect you may have intentionally misrepresenting your faith to others in the very manner you are claiming President Obama is doing. That is how you "know". Right?

I think an ignorant white racist can be a Christian. I don't think you are that ignorant. I believe you are a modern day Pharisee doing the work of Satan on earth. They didn't know they were doing the work of Satan. You may not either.

The people I have learned to distrust the most are those who wear their faith on their sleeves. The Sodomizing campaigner against sodomy. The secret child molester leading the faithful against child abuse. The business person who starts out the meeting from out of nowhere professing his faith. The Repub candidate... supporter of Christian family values... who divorces his wife while she is undergoing Chemo.

The next time you vote, ask yourself who Jesus would vote for... (hint... its not the candidate spewing hate... and those you find mostly on one side of the aisle... and it is your side where you find them)

I will pray for you. I don't believe you know what you are doing.... but I think you sort of know it just a little deep down in your heart.... because you know right from wrong and you do read those portions of the Bible that talk about Jesus Christ and his personal teachings (those are the parts most difficult for Satan to twist around to mean what they don't mean).

God Bless

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:10 am 
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This host is really funny :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:42 am 
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ces wrote:
flapane wrote:
It's curious to see how Murdoch's newscast in Italy (Sky News) is among the best ones.
There aren't any distorted point of views,
Perhaps it is a less crowded market segment in Italy?


I don't know the exact reason, but I'd say that it's quite crowded, with at least 10 different national newscasts and opinion talk shows, plus the regional ones and MSNBC.
I hope that Sky won't change, because a good newscast presents the news the way they really are, and a good political talk show gives equal space to both parties without the host to support one of the two "duellists".

m0002a wrote:
Fox News in the US is not (except occasionally) a news broadcast. It is primarily an opinion talk show format, like the other so-called cable news channels in the US (CNN, CNN-HLN, MSNBC, etc).


Yes, technically you're right, even if not much changes.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:35 am 
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ces wrote:
I think there are a large number of people who have been tricked into voting against the economic and political interests of themselves, their family, their children and their children's children.... and are being used to bring America down.

I am highly confident you are one of them.

I don’t claim to always know what policy is best for America (many issues are quite complicated these days) but I am very certain that I am not being tricked by anyone.

ces wrote:
I don't know how another person can truly know what another person's faith is. When you are envisioning what President Obama's faith is I am fairly certain you are projecting your own thoughts on to him. So currently, or in the past, I suspect you may have intentionally misrepresenting your faith to others in the very manner you are claiming President Obama is doing. That is how you "know". Right?

I am not an atheist or agnostic, so I am not projecting my own beliefs on Obama. But I admit that what I said about him is an educated guess and I don’t know for certain. Obama is a supreme politician, and I believe that he would say anything about his religious beliefs to get elected (as would most other politicians).

ces wrote:
I think an ignorant white racist can be a Christian. I don't think you are that ignorant. I believe you are a modern day Pharisee doing the work of Satan on earth. They didn't know they were doing the work of Satan. You may not either.

Really? Exactly what things did I do to further the work of Satan?

ces wrote:
The people I have learned to distrust the most are those who wear their faith on their sleeves. The Sodomizing campaigner against sodomy. The secret child molester leading the faithful against child abuse. The business person who starts out the meeting from out of nowhere professing his faith. The Repub candidate... supporter of Christian family values... who divorces his wife while she is undergoing Chemo.

I guess you forgot to mention John Edwards (recent presidential candidate and on the Democratic ticket as VP). He was screwing around while his wife was undergoing cancer treatments. JFK, RFK, and Teddy were wildly unfaithful, as were LBJ and Clinton (OMG). Carter only sinned in his mind (according to him).

I don’t think infidelity has anything to do with partisan politics. More related to power and fame than anything else.[/quote]

ces wrote:
The next time you vote, ask yourself who Jesus would vote for... (hint... its not the candidate spewing hate... and those you find mostly on one side of the aisle... and it is your side where you find them)

I will pray for you. I don't believe you know what you are doing.... but I think you sort of know it just a little deep down in your heart.... because you know right from wrong and you do read those portions of the Bible that talk about Jesus Christ and his personal teachings (those are the parts most difficult for Satan to twist around to mean what they don't mean).

God Bless

I will pray for you also, although it may be too late.


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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:16 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
I don’t claim to always know what policy is best for America
Read Jesus in the Bible. Don't do it for me, do it for you. You can't ask for a better compass to follow.

Looks to me you are wandering off that trail. Nothing good can come of that.

Try to talk, act and conduct your affairs as you would imagine Jesus would.

Read what you have said above. Why don't you try rewriting it as you would imagine Jesus would write it. Try it... just for the heck of. No need to even post it. It's for yourself. See how it differs from what you wrote. You can do it... try it.

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 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:09 pm 
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When did this become the preaching topic?

And how would anybody know if Obama is a Christian. I'd be happy if he wasn't, but if he says he is, how can somebody dispute that? Are some members of this forum secret members of the Inquisition?


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