It is currently Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:51 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
tim851 wrote:
And how would anybody know if Obama is a Christian.
I took a stab at how m0002a might likely think that he knows:
ces wrote:
I don't know how another person can truly know what another person's faith is. When you are envisioning what President Obama's faith is I am fairly certain you are projecting your own thoughts on to him. So currently, or in the past, I suspect you may have intentionally misrepresenting your faith to others in the very manner you are claiming President Obama is doing. That is how you "know". Right?
But only m0002a knows the basis upon which he formed that belief.

Why don't you specifically address that question to m0002a? I think we would all like to know how he thinks he knows. You know... let's shoot for "enlightenment" instead of the "inquisition".

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
tim851 wrote:
When did this become the preaching topic?
andyb, the owner of this thread seems to be finding it entertaining:
viewtopic.php?p=537019#p537019

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
tim851 wrote:
When did this become the preaching topic?

And how would anybody know if Obama is a Christian. I'd be happy if he wasn't, but if he says he is, how can somebody dispute that? Are some members of this forum secret members of the Inquisition?

I don't think it is possible to prove it one way or another. I can't prove what I said, and Obama cannot prove what he claims either (although most of it comes from his media people, and not himself personally). As I previously said, Obama is a consummate politician and he knew what he had to do to get elected.

Make no mistake, Obama is a left-wing intellectual. These sorts of people do not tend to believe in a supreme being (or are at least uncertain about it), nor are they likely to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. There are some members of left who are genuinely religious, but they don't tend to be intellectuals with a background like Obama.

My suspicion is that Obama (raised as a Muslim as child in Indonesia) says he is a Christian for the same reason he drove a Chrysler before being elected to the Senate (driving an American car is required to be elected in Illinois) and then switched to a Ford Hybrid right before the presidential election. He is a very savvy politician (as others are, both on the left and the right).

Why I don't believe Obama at face value? For similar reasons why I don't believe Obama was the sole author (as he claims) of the best-selling books published under his name, because it is simply not true. The true authorship of his books has been documented in a book by Jack Cashill called "Deconstructing Obama" which you find more about from C-SPAN, which televised a talk by Cashill recently.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/298382-1

This is not exactly earthshaking news (that Obama had a ghost writer). JFK's "Profiles in Courage" which won a Pulitzer Prize was in fact written solely by Ted Sorenson. I am sure that there are many other politicians who have had ghost writers for their books, both left and right, but it is the fact that Obama denies it that makes his "word" untrustworthy on these matters, just as it makes his claims about his personal religious beliefs equally suspect (and out of character). In "Deconstructing Obama" Cashill painstakingly goes over previously published articles by Obama (rather poorly written) and shows why his best-selling books (brilliantly written) are totally out of character from his true writing style.

By the same token, Obama's supposed Christian faith is out of character with his upbringing as a child by his natural father (an atheist) and his step-father (a devout Muslim) and his intellectual background and thought processes. It just seems extremely unlikely to me.

As I said before, it makes no difference to me whether Obama is Christian, atheist, agnostic, or whatever. It doesn't make him a better or worse person either way. But when it comes to journalistic accuracy (which got started on this subject when the media ignored the fact that he was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia), then one cannot merely accept the claims of a politician in this matter just because he claims to be a Christian. Likewise, I am sure if you asked him why he owned a Chrysler all those years (instead of a foreign car, for example), he wouldn't admit that it was so he could get elected.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
I can't prove what I said, and Obama cannot prove what he claims either (although most of it comes from his media people, and not himself personally).
Why would he need to, and how could you not?

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
m0002a wrote:
I can't prove what I said, and Obama cannot prove what he claims either (although most of it comes from his media people, and not himself personally).
Why would he need to, and how could you not?

Neither of us "needs" to prove anything. But Obama is a public figure (and eventually will be a historical figure) and historians will try to analyze his life, including his true religious beliefs, just like they have done with other US presidents (especially the founding fathers). In these cases, there is often a difference in what is publicly stated, and what the person really believes.

This whole subject arose when some claimed that Obama was really a Muslim, and the liberal media said that is wrong, he is a actually a Christian. Neither of these statements can be proven to be correct.

Instead, the media should have just reported the fact that Obama was raised as a Muslim and attended Mosques from ages 6-10 while he lived in Indonesia with his devout Muslim step-father. They should have also reported that Obama has more recently attended and been a member of a Unitarian Christian Church. They should not report what he believes (which no one really knows), only report what he has done.

As stated earlier, my suspicion is that Obama choice of religious affiliation is strongly influenced by his understanding of the requirements of American politics, and also by the fact that his wife was a practicing Christian when he met her. Most men will do a lot of things to get elected and to get laid, including attending church once in a while.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Fox News and American Idocracy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
Make no mistake, Obama is a left-wing intellectual.These sorts of people do not tend to believe in a supreme being (or are at least uncertain about it), nor are they likely to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. There are some members of left who are genuinely religious, but they don't tend to be intellectuals with a background like Obama.


m0002a wrote:
My suspicion is that Obama (raised as a Muslim as child in Indonesia) says he is a Christian for the same reason he drove a Chrysler before being elected to the Senate (driving an American car is required to be elected in Illinois) and then switched to a Ford Hybrid right before the presidential election. He is a very savvy politician (as others are, both on the left and the right).


m0002a wrote:
Why I don't believe Obama at face value? For similar reasons why I don't believe Obama was the sole author (as he claims) of the best-selling books published under his name, because it is simply not true. The true authorship of his books has been documented in a book by Jack Cashill called "Deconstructing Obama" which you find more about from C-SPAN, which televised a talk by Cashill recently.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/298382-1
C-span televises pretty much anything... sort of like Youtube. That something is on c-span doesn't mean it isn't wacky.

m0002a wrote:
This is not exactly earthshaking news (that Obama had a ghost writer). JFK's "Profiles in Courage" which won a Pulitzer Prize was in fact written solely by Ted Sorenson. I am sure that there are many other politicians who have had ghost writers for their books, both left and right, but it is the fact that Obama denies it that makes his "word" untrustworthy on these matters, just as it makes his claims about his personal religious beliefs equally suspect (and out of character). In "Deconstructing Obama" Cashill painstakingly goes over previously published articles by Obama (rather poorly written) and shows why his best-selling books (brilliantly written) are totally out of character from his true writing style.
You think that it might make a slight difference having a few years of writing experience under his belt coupled with the assistance of a full time top tier editor... and working on a magnum opus that will be critically read by many vs. a throw away article or post? The real question is where does the original thinking come from (ie. Palin cf. Obama not Obama cf. Kennedy)

m0002a wrote:
By the same token, Obama's supposed Christian faith is out of character with his upbringing as a child by his natural father (an atheist) and his step-father (a devout Muslim) and his intellectual background and thought processes. It just seems extremely unlikely to me.


m0002a wrote:
As I said before, it makes no difference to me whether Obama is Christian, atheist, agnostic, or whatever.
Obviously. That may be the one thing you have said that I can agree with.

Wow........................

Other than perhaps my comments on ignorance, is there anyone that doesn't see how this supports everything that I said previously?

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:35 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
Read Jesus in the Bible. Don't do it for me, do it for you. You can't ask for a better compass to follow.

Looks to me you are wandering off that trail. Nothing good can come of that.

Try to talk, act and conduct your affairs as you would imagine Jesus would.

Read what you have said above. Why don't you try rewriting it as you would imagine Jesus would write it. Try it... just for the heck of. No need to even post it. It's for yourself. See how it differs from what you wrote. You can do it... try it.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein

One interesting thing about the above quotes, is that neither Aristotle, Russell, nor Einstein where Christians. Of course Aristotle lived about 350 years before Jesus, but Russell and Einstein were both at least agnostic, if not athiests.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fox News and American Idocracy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
You think that it might make a slight difference having a few years of writing experience under his belt coupled with the assistance of a full time top tier editor? The real question is where does the thinking come from (ie. Palin cf. Obama not Obama cf. Kennedy)

Not according to Cashill, who examined Obama's writing style in depth before his books were written, against the books themselves. Cashill also claims to know who the actual authors are, for which he provides convincing evidence from other writings of the ghost writers (comparing style and in some cases actual phrases with the ghost writers other works).

Keep in mind that Obama's books are considered to be masterpieces of linguistic style, something that Cashill says cannot change as quickly (if ever) in a writer from the time of Obama's pre-political era papers (dealing with Constitutional laws, etc when he was a professor), to the time the books were written. In one case, Cashill documents that Obama claimed to have written 50 pages a week (of impeccable and brilliant language) for several straight weeks.

If you want to refute Cashill, you must first read his book, "Deconstructing Obama."

But I am not discussing "where the ideas came from." I am saying that Obama says he wrote the book by himself (no credit given to any ghost writer as is often down by a "With XXXXXX" Byline), and that makes for an interesting difference between what is actually true, and what Obama says is true (perhaps similar differences exist about his true religious beliefs).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
One interesting thing about the above quotes, is that neither Aristotle, Russell, nor Einstein where Christians. Of course Aristotle lived about 350 years before Jesus, but Russell and Einstein were both at least agnostic, if not athiests.
Are you implying I should quote the bible on the subject of Moronic thinking?

Why would I quote the bible on a subject that it doesn't address? How could I quote it on a subject that it doesn't address?

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
m0002a wrote:
I don't think it is possible to prove it one way or another. I can't prove what I said

But you lean far enough out the window to call people who believe Obama is a Christian, and I quote, "stupid".

Quote:
Make no mistake, Obama is a left-wing intellectual. These sorts of people do not tend to believe in a supreme being (or are at least uncertain about it), nor are they likely to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. There are some members of left who are genuinely religious, but they don't tend to be intellectuals with a background like Obama.

I agree that education makes being religious harder, but sadly not impossible. Most intellectuals have religious views that differ from the dogmas of the big churches though.

Quote:
My suspicion is that Obama (raised as a Muslim as child in Indonesia) says he is a Christian for the same reason he drove a Chrysler before being elected to the Senate (driving an American car is required to be elected in Illinois) and then switched to a Ford Hybrid right before the presidential election. He is a very savvy politician (as others are, both on the left and the right).

That may very well be. But according to a quick search in Google, domnestic cars still constitute two-thirds of American car sales, so it's also statistically very likely that he would drive one.

Quote:
By the same token, Obama's supposed Christian faith is out of character with his upbringing as a child by his natural father (an atheist) and his step-father (a devout Muslim) and his intellectual background and thought processes. It just seems extremely unlikely to me.

Once again, this is sadly not true. I know at least two people who were raised atheist or at least non-religious and who became religious later. And there are just too many documented cases of religious converts.

Quote:
But when it comes to journalistic accuracy (which got started on this subject when the media ignored the fact that he was raised as a Muslim in Indonesia), then one cannot merely accept the claims of a politician in this matter just because he claims to be a Christian.

Yes, you can. Most people would view religion as a personal matter. You ask a person "What Religion are you of?" and you accept their answer. Just like you wouldn't challenge their answer as to what their favourite dessert is.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
Are you implying I should quote the bible on the subject of Moronic thinking?

Why would I quote the bible on a subject that it doesn't address? How could I quote it on a subject that it doesn't address?

You seem to be preaching that we should all "do what Jesus would have done," presumably based on your belief that he was the Christ, the Incarnation of God, the Word made flesh. But you also seem to admire quotes from people who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus (or in the divinity of God since they were agnostic or atheist) and really didn't care what Jesus would have done. That seems to me to be an interesting contradiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fox News and American Idocracy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
Not according to Cashill, who examined Obama's writing style in depth before his books were written, against the books themselves.
You've never worked with a professional editor have you?

Have you ever asked yourself whether Letterman's jokes are his or that of his writers? Or whether Colbert's jokes are his or that of his writers. Think.

"Idiocracy" Morons led by Morons.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
You seem to be preaching that we should all "do what Jesus would have done," presumably based on your belief that he was the Christ, the Incarnation of God, the Word made flesh. But you also seem to admire quotes from people who didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus (or in the divinity of God since they were agnostic or atheist) and really didn't care what Jesus would have done. That seems to me to be an interesting contradiction.
I don't trust people who wear their faith, or elements of their sex life, on their sleeve. It is unseemly to do either... and when I see it, it tells me there is something wrong with that person. I don't do that. I avoid people who do.

I wear my intellect on my sleeve. My taste in food, my intellect and my faith are three unrelated subjects.

You are the one who brought up faith. You are the one disregarding the teachings of Jesus. You are the modern day Pharisee doing the work of Satan. Not me.

I have a question for you. Do you believe the original Pharisees will be in for a surprise when they meet their maker? Do you think they will be expecting the judgement of God that they receive? Or do you think their twisted reading of scripture will protect them from that judgment?

Go spend some more time with the teachings of Jesus. Unlike your current religious leader, they will not lead you astray.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
tim851 wrote:
But you lean far enough out the window to call people who believe Obama is a Christian, and I quote, "stupid".

I believe it is stupid to take what a politician says about his/her religious beliefs at face value. The media should just report what he has done, not what he believes (becasue no one really knows what he really believes).

tim851 wrote:
That may very well be. But according to a quick search in Google, domnestic cars still constitute two-thirds of American car sales, so it's also statistically very likely that he would drive one.

Really? Does that include Japenese, Korean, and German cars made in the USA? I would bet that if you looked at 52 year old lawyers with degrees from Harvard Law School, that almost all of them have owned at least one car from a foreign auto company (although perhaps made in the USA) during the last 10 years. Obama is not a blue collar worker.

tim851 wrote:
Once again, this is sadly not true. I know at least two people who were raised atheist or at least non-religious and who became religious later. And there are just too many documented cases of religious converts.

I said it was out of character, not that it could not have happened. My main point is that we don't know, and perhaps will never know. The media should just report what he has done, not what he believes based on current church attendance. But I don't think you will find many Christian "converts" at a Unitarian Church (Christianity lite).

tim851 wrote:
Yes, you can. Most people would view religion as a personal matter. You ask a person "What Religion are you of?" and you accept their answer. Just like you wouldn't challenge their answer as to what their favourite dessert is.

If religion is only a personal matter, then why does the media claim Obama is a Christian? Just because he attends a Unitarian church does not provide enough evidence to know what he really thinks about religion. I have explained (ad infinitum) as to why someone who aspires to elected office may not want to be candid about what they really believe about religious matters. It is ridiculous to compare that to what they claim their favorite desert/food is (although Bush Sr. probably did loose a couple of votes when he said he hated broccoli and refused to eat it).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fox News and American Idocracy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
You've never worked with a professional editor have you?

Have you ever asked yourself whether Letterman's jokes are his or that of his writers? Or whether Colbert's jokes are his or that of his writers. Think.

"Idiocracy" Morons led by Morons.

Editors don't "write" the books. You need to read Cashill's book before you discredit his thesis.

Letterman doesn't claim to write his own jokes (neither does Leno or Conan). All of these guys worked at one time as joke writers for other comedians before they became famous. The writers are credited during the on-screen credits when the Letterman show airs. Obama claims he wrote his books by himself and does not credit a ghost writer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
I don't trust people who wear their faith, or elements of their sex life, on their sleeve. It is unseemly to do either... and when I see it, it tells me there is something wrong with that person. I don't do that. I avoid people who do.

I wear my intellect on my sleeve. My taste in food, my intellect and my faith are three unrelated subjects.

You are the one who brought up faith. You are the one disregarding the teachings of Jesus. You are the modern day Pharisee doing the work of Satan. Not me.

I have a question for you. Do you believe the original Pharisees will be in for a surprise when they meet their maker? Do you think they will be expecting the judgement of God that they receive? Or do you think their twisted reading of scripture will protect them from that judgment?

Go spend some more time with the teachings of Jesus. Unlike your current religious leader, they will not lead you astray.

I think that many would say that you do wear your faith on your sleeve, based on the above comments about Judgment Day, Satin, etc.

You have no idea what my personal religious beliefs are, nor do you know anything about Obama's either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:05 pm
Posts: 759
Location: Colorado, USA
No one can know for certain what he believes.

However, if his behavior is any example of his faith, he doesn't seem much like a Christian.
First, there is his upbringing. There is also the way he chose his first church- it was a polical move.

Then there is the church itself, which he faithfully attended for nearly 20 years (according to himself). That church was about hatred and racism, not about Christianity. The Rev. Wright was a sensationalist inciter, not a spiritual leader. Obama threw him under the bus because his comments were indefensible.

His cabinet does/has included many anti-christian activists.

Last, his disdain for Christians. There is the "clinging to guns and religion" comment, there are also some other examples of him putting down Christians. He just doesn't sound very convincing when he says he is. I could be wrong, but his actions certainly paint a different picture than his words do.

_________________
Gaming HTPC: Antec NSK-2480/ Antec EW430 Bronze/ i5-2400/ MSI H67/ Ninja-Mini/ 4GB DDR3/ 500GB WD Sata 3.0/ XFX HD6850/ Windows 7 x64/ Toshiba 46" 1080p LED/LCD TV


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Fox News and American Idocracy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
Great Insight!

That sly Kenyan fakes his way in as a US citizen; then faked his way into, and then through, Harvard Law School; faked his way onto the law review (everyone wants in, only a few are selected); once there he fakes his way to the editorship; he then fakes his way on to the faculty of the University of Chicago law school; and eventually fakes his way to the Presidency of the United States. All the while with substandard writing skills. Whew!

Fox News had it right all along.

Only in America.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
m0002a wrote:
I believe it is stupid to take what a politician says about his/her religious beliefs at face value. The media should just report what he has done, not what he believes (becasue no one really knows what he really believes).

I don't have a complete overview of the media coverage, but I think most outlets only report he's a Christian, as opposed to being a Muslim. What any person really believes, may be complex anyways. I know people claiming to be Christian, but they believe in the theory of evolution. A lot of them actually. There are many conservative Christians, who wouldn't accept those "evolutionists" as believers. So what constitutes a Christian and what doesn't is not even clear. Numerous churches claim jurisdiction, none have gotten it. There have been quite a few Catholic priests who sexually abused minors. Are they Christian? They say they are, their actions speak differently.
In light of this, we can only accept what a person tells us. We might think they are deceptive, but who are we to judge?

Quote:
Really? Does that include Japenese, Korean, and German cars made in the USA?

I have no idea. As I said, I just did a quick check on Google. But wouldn't a foreign brand car with an American VIN suffice for election too?

Quote:
I would bet that if you looked at 52 year old lawyers with degrees from Harvard Law School, that almost all of them have owned at least one car from a foreign auto company (although perhaps made in the USA) during the last 10 years.

This is your personal preconception than actual fact, is it? So you compare Obama's claim to be a Christian (which would indeed be the defacto requirement for the presidential office) with his owning a Chrysler when according to your belief system he should really drive a Mercedes. That seems very rational to me.

Quote:
tim851 wrote:
Once again, this is sadly not true. I know at least two people who were raised atheist or at least non-religious and who became religious later. And there are just too many documented cases of religious converts.

I said it was out of character, not that it could not have happened.

How is it out of character? Because he usually doesn't convert his religion? Because ivy league lawyers usually don't convert their religion?

Quote:
If religion is only a personal matter, then why does the media claim Obama is a Christian? Just because he attends a Unitarian church does not provide enough evidence to know what he really thinks about religion.

Well, I do agree the political views of political candidates shouldn't be a news item at all. But they are. And since they are, it is most reasonable to assume a guy who attends church and says he's Christian really is. He's definitely not a Muslim, since from what I know attending a Christian mass and claiming to be a Christian already gets you a ticket to their hell. What do you care why he does it? There may be people who are just afraid to burn in the lake of fire. There may be people who go just to please their neighbors. And there may be people who go just to satisfy the electorate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
djkest wrote:
There is the "clinging to guns and religion" comment.
There are many "damn Yankees" of faith who share those sentiments... and who raise their eyebrows at the alleged "faith" of such people.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
You have no idea what my personal religious beliefs
That is true. But you can't seem to separate your stated religious beliefs from your stated political beliefs.

And quite frankly I can't tell if you are misrepresenting your religious beliefs. I am assuming to some extent you are doing what you are projecting onto President Obama... misrepresenting your religious beliefs for some sort of short term benefit.

But some portion of what you are saying appears to be sincere. A concession you are unwilling to make regarding what President Obama says.

You have given us all a good enough idea for us to size you up for what you are.

And enough for me to be personally confident that you are a modern day Pharisee... with all the related implications.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:19 am
Posts: 400
Location: Boston, MA, USA
This conversation is making the baby Jesus cry.

_________________
Currently running Mint 14 MATE on all machines.
Desktop/Gaming: E8400 / 650ti + Accelero S1 / Antec Solo
Myth Backend + Home Server: D945GSEJT / WD15EADS / Hauppage 950Q / Home made case
Myth Frontend + HTPC: Sempron 140 / Asus M4A785-M
Notebook:AMD A4-3300M


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
tim851 wrote:
I don't have a complete overview of the media coverage, but I think most outlets only report he's a Christian, as opposed to being a Muslim. What any person really believes, may be complex anyways. I know people claiming to be Christian, but they believe in the theory of evolution. A lot of them actually. There are many conservative Christians, who wouldn't accept those "evolutionists" as believers. So what constitutes a Christian and what doesn't is not even clear. Numerous churches claim jurisdiction, none have gotten it. There have been quite a few Catholic priests who sexually abused minors. Are they Christian? They say they are, their actions speak differently.
In light of this, we can only accept what a person tells us. We might think they are deceptive, but who are we to judge?
First, I don't believe that evolution and Christianity are mutually exclusive. For more on this subject please read Saving the Appearances: A Study in Idolatry, 1957, by Owen Barfield.

Secondly, my point is not what religious membership Obama has, or what church he attends, but what he really believes. This is a complex matter as you noted, and not something the media should report on as if they actually knew simply on the basis of church attendance. This is especially true for a politician who is pretty much required to claim certain things publicly if he wants to get elected.

Quote:
I have no idea. As I said, I just did a quick check on Google. But wouldn't a foreign brand car with an American VIN suffice for election too?
Not in Illinois. It is not where the car is made, but who owns the company, and whether it is a union shop.

Quote:
This is your personal preconception than actual fact, is it? So you compare Obama's claim to be a Christian (which would indeed be the defacto requirement for the presidential office) with his owning a Chrysler when according to your belief system he should really drive a Mercedes. That seems very rational to me.
I didn't say it was a fact, but I said I would be willing to bet. Would you be willing to bet against me? Also, at no time did I ever mention Mercedes. We are talking about American automakers vs non-American automakers (regardless of where the car is made).

Quote:
Well, I do agree the political views of political candidates shouldn't be a news item at all. But they are. And since they are, it is most reasonable to assume a guy who attends church and says he's Christian really is. He's definitely not a Muslim, since from what I know attending a Christian mass and claiming to be a Christian already gets you a ticket to their hell. What do you care why he does it? There may be people who are just afraid to burn in the lake of fire. There may be people who go just to please their neighbors. And there may be people who go just to satisfy the electorate.
It is most reasonable to assume that a politician who is an atheist or agnostic is not going to reveal his true thinking to the public (if he wants to get elected). Many atheists or agnostics will belong to a church for the sake of their spouses and/or children, even if they personally think differently in private. So while this does not prove that Obama is an atheist or agnostic, it is possible that he is, despite the claims of the media and his press secretary to the contrary.

If Obama has a ticket to Muslim Hell then he would be a Muslim, not a Christian (although we are talking about what Obama personally believes, rather than what are the various rules and regulations issued by the human leaders of a particular religion).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
ces wrote:
m0002a wrote:
You have no idea what my personal religious beliefs
That is true. But you can't seem to separate your stated religious beliefs from your stated political beliefs.
If you agree that you don't know what my personal beliefs are, then how do you know that I can't seperate them from my political beliefs (not sure you know my political beliefs either).

Quote:
And quite frankly I can't tell if you are misrepresenting your religious beliefs. I am assuming to some extent you are doing what you are projecting onto President Obama... misrepresenting your religious beliefs for some sort of short term benefit.
I have rarely discussed (and definitely not misrepresented) my personal beliefs, other than to say that I am not an atheist or agnostic, and that I don't think evolution and Christianity are incompatible.

Quote:
But some portion of what you are saying appears to be sincere. A concession you are unwilling to make regarding what President Obama says.

You have given us all a good enough idea for us to size you up for what you are.

And enough for me to be personally confident that you are a modern day Pharisee... with all the related implications.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you know little about what I really think, nor do you know much about what Obama really thinks.

As to the implications you mention, I suppose that all the self-admitted atheists and agnostics on this forum (there are many) are in even worse shape than me (according to you), but I don't think any of us are actually worried about what you think.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
djkest wrote:
There is the "clinging to guns and religion" comment.
I have been thinking about this.

These people have been exploited since before the civil war.

They didn't own slaves. Those slaves were used to keep the cost of the white trash labor down low, where it belonged. They willingly followed leaders like the senator who blind sided another senator with a heavy cane and then proceeded to cripple him for life with multiple blows... on the senate floor (talk about a hate spewing politician) believing God was on their side... and that was why the "Damn Yankees" would go down in defeat?

Yet they died in inordinate numbers to protect the rights of slaveholders, such as that very Senator. Running into musket ball volleys yelling that old Johnny Reb Yell. For what?

To this day, they run around flaunting confederate flags. You won't find any Germans flaunting swastika flags. I can't think of any other democratic country where treasonous felons who rose up against the state are lauded as patriots deserving of honor... by high governmental officials of that very state.

They continue to offer themselves, and their children, as cannon fodder for wealthy interests that have nothing but contempt for them and theirs... Whether it be being poisoned by cancerous mining wastes; permitting agricultural interests to use human antibiotics on animals to develop more virulent strains of antibiotic resistant disease; permitting destruction of family ranches with secret Fracking chemicals; destroying ranches; to protect the people who stole from their pensions and savings in the recent financial melt down; to protecting the tax loopholes of those very same people to help them avoid paying taxes on their ill gotten gains; to fighting for health insurance gotchas like the pre-existing claim scam that permits insurance companies avoid paying for the very thing that insureds thought they bought, so called "insurance" policies where less than 50% of the premiums are ever paid out in claims.... the list goes on and on.

What is wrong with these people?

And why do they keep justifying and linking this behavior to their religious faith?

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
m0002a wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you, but you know little about what I really think,
You have bled it all over these posts. Some of it no doubt is the very misdirection as you assert President Obama to be engaged in. But still, you seem to be showing off a fair amount of what is likely the real you.

In fact I am now fairly confident you use your profession of faith to manipulate others whom you think your faith is important to. It is a pattern I have seen more than a few times in people who think they are smarter than they are and who live in highly religious communities...smart people who overestimate themselves and underestimate those around them... with a fair dose of narcissism.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
m0002a wrote:
First, I don't believe that evolution and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

Then you wouldn't be a Christian in a lot of people's eyes.

Quote:
Secondly, my point is not what religious membership Obama has, or what church he attends, but what he really believes.

How is the media to report that? When Fox News say something along the lines of "Is Obama secretly a Muslim?" and the White House Press Secretary releases a statement "President Obama is a devout Christian." - what is the neutral media to cover? Are they to stage a crossfire interview where his personal religious views are questioned during a polygraph test and then a panel of two dozen representatives from as many Christian denominations takes a vote on whether or not he is?
Or should they just say: he's a Christian. Why? Because he says he is.

Quote:
Not in Illinois. It is not where the car is made, but who owns the company, and whether it is a union shop.

Could you give me a reference for that? I've googled it, but found nothing. I'm really interested in wacky laws and this would be a nice addition to my collection.

Quote:
I didn't say it was a fact, but I said I would be willing to bet. Would you be willing to bet against me?

If you would define "almost all Harvard lawyers" and propose a method of data gathering, I would probably bet against you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
ces wrote:
You won't find any Germans flaunting swastika flags

Let me fix that for you: you won't find many Germans flaunting swastika flags.

You would probably find a lot more, if it wasn't illegal to show them around publicly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:12 am 
Offline
Patron of SPCR

Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:00 pm
Posts: 3275
Location: Essex, England
Quote:
You would probably find a lot more, if it wasn't illegal to show them around publicly.


I have wondered for a while about a rather similar "Buddhist" symbol, the "legs" of the cross go the other direction.

Is that also banned because it is similar.?

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/77738264

http://yaymicro.com/stock-image/buddhis ... bol/377873


Andy

_________________
Main PC, P180, CM Silent Pro 500M, i5 3570k @ 4.2Ghz, 8-GB @ 2,000MHz, 256 GB Samsung 830, 500-GB 7K500, MSI 660Ti Twin Frozr, PC is super quiet :o
Server, 6-TB RAID-5 array, + 2 x 2-TB backup drives, 380W Enermax Pro82+, 4x very quiet fans, positive pressure only, no exhaust fans
Living Room PC, 3500+, 2-GB RAM, HD501LJ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I have just discovered how horrible Fox News really is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
tim851 wrote:
ces wrote:
You won't find any Germans flaunting swastika flags
Let me fix that for you: you won't find many Germans flaunting swastika flags. You would probably find a lot more, if it wasn't illegal to show them around publicly.
I stand corrected. My recollection is that you are German. You ought to know.

I just don't think even you would find your governor of Bavaria flaunting it or publicly mulling over a renewed attempt to secede, 150 years after having failed at the first attempt.

Do they permit your Neo-Nazis to wander around outside a presidential appearance with sidearms strapped on to their hips.

If you want real wacky... you have to come to the US. Especially Texas.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group