It is currently Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:00 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 168 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
I really apologize for the off-topic, it will by my last post in this topic that doesn't include the words Japan, nuclear or tsunami, I swear!

ces wrote:
For 200 years China did nothing

The same can be said for most countries.
The economic boom of the last two centuries started when the Age of Industrializiation hit. And it hit China a lot later than Europe or America. Once it did, China benifitted from all the advancements made. The leadership's smart politics is that they largely ignore the humanitarian and social progress made in Europe and America and implemented a Capitalism of the 19th century. You call that smart, other people might call it ruthless. Yes, it helps the country as a whole and future generations might benefit greatly from it. I just wouldn't want to live there now.

Quote:
This US imports more than it exports.

And the German economy exports more than it imports. Live's not a wishing well.
China will ultimately run into the same problems that other rich countries run into. They're not doing anything special. And believe you me, the US is not looking any better or worse than any EU country.
The only country that comes to mind that really does something special is Norway, who have had their federalized oil industry and they've been spreading the wealth from that among the people and they're now putting a lot of money into a huge federal fund for the time after the oil runs out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:58 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Posts: 7354
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/36961/?mod=chfeatured
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/35103/?mod=chfeatured

_________________
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 379
Location: maine
smart or stupid, it is an extreme sprite.

the only famous extreme sprites in history are from the threat of death young.

live fast and die.

that is japan.
call it genious, call it what you will..

it is all so grotesquesly stupid, they are just gonna shrink like the land they are loving on. random sprites of desperation and quick change.. like every dainty product we get.

does this deserve a ban? "Ban". where have I heard that word before..

_________________
DSFg$57%udRTYnh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 518
Location: 128.0.0.1
Don't drink and post, kids!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
colm wrote:
smart or stupid, it is an extreme sprite.
Colm would you care to recast what you said into a paragraph with several sentences. I have to believe it contains unintended errors.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: San Jose
Hey, I just heard about some other destruction, although for a change it wasn't from the tsunami, just the quake. A dam failed and caused a flood away from the coast:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujinuma_Dam


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:19 am
Posts: 400
Location: Boston, MA, USA
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... ZI20110325
Hat, meet stomach.

Looks like the reactor vessels are probably breached after all.

_________________
Currently running Mint 14 MATE on all machines.
Desktop/Gaming: E8400 / 650ti + Accelero S1 / Antec Solo
Myth Backend + Home Server: D945GSEJT / WD15EADS / Hauppage 950Q / Home made case
Myth Frontend + HTPC: Sempron 140 / Asus M4A785-M
Notebook:AMD A4-3300M


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:13 pm 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
Fukushima Dai-ichi status and slow burning issues
Posted by Euan Mearns on March 25, 2011 - 10:00am

note the text below is not from the link above. I'm just commenting on the overall situation.


It might seem to some that this is happening in slow motion but to me it's as obvious as the Katrina flooding (which didn't happen immediately and wasn't covered well by the media until well under way). Studies were done decades before a major hurricane hit New Orleans and predictions were made clear to any that would listen. No reason to be surprised by the devastation of a disaster that obvious.

I tried to mention how bad this would be near the beginning of this thread but someone said that they didn't want to hear how bad it would be. As though me describing what is likely to happen would change the odds of it happening.

I'll refrain from describing in detail how things are progressing, go spend some time reading news from somewhere other than the MSM if you want to know how bad it really is over there. Or just wait until it becomes more obvious and the MSM decides to cover it again. I understand the activities in the Middle East are important and a understandable bit of news to distract people from following Fukushima.

If there is anyone that still thinks Fukushima is closer to 3 Mile Island than Chernobyl in terms of the severity of the accident or the lives lost due to radiation released into the environment outside the plant they just haven't looked at this enough. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't change the nature of the disaster.

Oh and for the record per the NRC there were 0 deaths directly attributed to 3 Mile Island.

Chernobyl has a more complicated tally: Thirty one deaths are directly attributed to the accident, all among the reactor staff and emergency workers. Estimates of the number of deaths potentially resulting from the accident vary enormously; the World Health Organization (WHO) suggest it could reach 4,000 while a Greenpeace report puts this figure at 200,000 or more.

I'm not predicting a number of deaths for Fukushima, I'm just saying it'll be greater than zero as in >0

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
dhanson865 wrote:
I tried to mention how bad this would be near the beginning of this thread but someone said that they didn't want to hear how bad it would be. As though me describing what is likely to happen would change the odds of it happening.
Yeah. Why is that.

That same human mechanism seems to have been at work in Japan and seems to have impaired response to the disaster.

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
tim851 wrote:
The only country that comes to mind that really does something special is Norway, who have had their federalized oil industry and they've been spreading the wealth from that among the people and they're now putting a lot of money into a huge federal fund for the time after the oil runs out.
I don't quite understand what you mean by "federalized" when referring to the Norway oil industry. Most of the Norway oil and gas is produced offshore in the North Sea by private companies. Since it is in areas where the government of Norway owns the mineral rights, Norway gets the benefits of substantial lease and royalty payments, as well as production taxes.

But this is not much different than in the US. There is substantial oil and gas production in federal waters or land areas where the US government is the beneficiary of substantial payments from the private production companies. The main difference is that, since the US is a republic of states, a lot of the land is state owned, and state governments benefit. There is a reason why Texas and Alaska have no state income tax. Granted, in the US, in addition to federal and state lands, there are Native American lands, and private property (particularly farm land) where oil and gas is produced, and the government is not always the main beneficiary (although most state governments charge hefty production/extraction taxes).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:49 pm
Posts: 1188
Location: UK
dhanson865 wrote:
Oh and for the record per the NRC there were 0 deaths directly attributed to 3 Mile Island.

Chernobyl has a more complicated tally: Thirty one deaths are directly attributed to the accident, all among the reactor staff and emergency workers. Estimates of the number of deaths potentially resulting from the accident vary enormously; the World Health Organization (WHO) suggest it could reach 4,000 while a Greenpeace report puts this figure at 200,000 or more.

I'm not predicting a number of deaths for Fukushima, I'm just saying it'll be greater than zero as in >0

It will be worse than Three Mile Island. We now have members of the cleanup crew getting large doses (150-200 mSv) which may have added 1% to the chance of them getting cancer.

TMI has been blown way out of context. The IAEA puts the number of cancer deaths at two thirds so it could be 0 or it could be 1. More people will have died from the stress of the event than anything else. News Flashes on TV do cause heart attacks!

Here's a list of IAEA cancer death estimates:

1986 Chenobyl 4000
1957 Kyshtym 150-200
1957 Windscale 33
1979 Three Mile Island 0-1

So TMI simply isn't a worthy comparison. I would say this is similar to Windscale however. As with Fukushima milk and other food products were prevented from entering the food chain for a certain amount of time.

_________________
Silverstone SG03B: E8200, Asus P5E-VM HDMI, 2Gb RAM, Leadtek 9600GT+S1 rev. 2, Samsung 500Gb, Seasonic X-400, 2x Akasa 120mm, Scythe Zipang 2 fanless


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:53 pm 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
Quote:
Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) admitted to the possibility in its early March 28 press conference that the steel Reactor Pressure Vessels that hold nuclear fuel rods in the Reactors 1, 2, 3 at Fukushima I Nuclear Plant may have broken. TEPCO explained the situation "Imagine there's a hole." Because of this "hole", contaminated water that's been poured into the Pressure Vessels to cool the fuel rods continues to leak, it is assumed...

...TEPCO also admitted to the possibility of the exposed nuclear fuel rods overheating and damaging the RPVs. According to the nuclear experts, if the fuel rods get damaged and start to melt, it will fall to the bottom of the RPVs and settle. It then becomes harder to cool with water effectively, because the surface area is smaller. It is possible that the melted fuel rods melted the wall of the RPVs with high temperature and created a hole.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:15 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
Fukushima radioactive fallout nears Chernobyl levels wrote:
Japan's damaged nuclear plant in Fukushima has been emitting radioactive iodine and caesium at levels approaching those seen in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident in 1986. Austrian researchers have used a worldwide network of radiation detectors – designed to spot clandestine nuclear bomb tests – to show that iodine-131 is being released at daily levels 73 per cent of those seen after the 1986 disaster. The daily amount of caesium-137 released from Fukushima Daiichi is around 60 per cent of the amount released from Chernobyl.

The difference between this accident and Chernobyl, they say, is that at Chernobyl a huge fire released large amounts of many radioactive materials, including fuel particles, in smoke. At Fukushima Daiichi, only the volatile elements, such as iodine and caesium, are bubbling off the damaged fuel. But these substances could nevertheless pose a significant health risk outside the plant.


How Much Does Japan Know About the Status of its Reactors?
Attachment:
tumblr_liq5qdNjUD1qbnrqd.jpg


Quote:
A - Computer monitors are blank.

B - Clock out of service.

C - Annunciators seem to be de-energized: no alarms reported despite many plant parameters off-normal.

D - Equipment status indicator lights not available.

E - Instrument gauges all downscale (not reading parameter values).


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
dhanson865 wrote:
The difference between this accident and Chernobyl, they say, is that at Chernobyl a huge fire released large amounts of many radioactive materials, including fuel particles, in smoke. At Fukushima Daiichi, only the volatile elements, such as iodine and caesium, are bubbling off the damaged fuel. But these substances could nevertheless pose a significant health risk outside the plant.
The difference between Chernobyl and Japan is that Chernobyl had no containment building around the reactor. Once the reactor blew at Chernobyl, there was no backup containment system. In Japan, the containment buildings are 4" of stainless steel. I believe that in the US they use very thick reinforced concrete. However, there does appear to be a leak in one of the containment buildings in Japan, which is the source of much of the radiation, but still nothing like Chernobyl.

It does seem like media is under-reporting the seriousness of the situation. If there was ever a leak like that in the US, we would be hearing about it 24x7 with massive evacuation, but the Japanese tend to follow instructions from their leaders and not complain too much.

Quote:
A - Computer monitors are blank.

B - Clock out of service.

C - Annunciators seem to be de-energized: no alarms reported despite many plant parameters off-normal.

D - Equipment status indicator lights not available.

E - Instrument gauges all downscale (not reading parameter values).
I believe that the control room had no power for quite a while, which is why all the equipment is off, except for some emergency lighting (or maybe those are skylights, can't tell). Power has been restored to the control room, which had to be brought in from a fairly long distance over new power wires.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:55 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
m0002a wrote:
I believe that the control room had no power for quite a while, which is why all the equipment is off, except for some emergency lighting (or maybe those are skylights, can't tell). Power has been restored to the control room, which had to be brought in from a fairly long distance over new power wires.


Yes and that picture is from AFTER the power was restored.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:06 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
m0002a wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
The difference between this accident and Chernobyl, they say, is that at Chernobyl a huge fire released large amounts of many radioactive materials, including fuel particles, in smoke. At Fukushima Daiichi, only the volatile elements, such as iodine and caesium, are bubbling off the damaged fuel. But these substances could nevertheless pose a significant health risk outside the plant.
The difference between Chernobyl and Japan is that Chernobyl had no containment building around the reactor. Once the reactor blew at Chernobyl, there was no backup containment system. In Japan, the containment buildings are 4" of stainless steel. I believe that in the US they use very thick reinforced concrete. However, there does appear to be a leak in one of the containment buildings in Japan, which is the source of much of the radiation, but still nothing like Chernobyl.


Please modify your quote header in the future. I did not write the quoted block, I quoted an article. If you don't know the source just use quote="unknown source" or quote="quoted article" or some such. A quick google search shows the quoted block comes from http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... evels.html

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:12 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
edh wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Oh and for the record per the NRC there were 0 deaths directly attributed to 3 Mile Island.

Chernobyl has a more complicated tally: Thirty one deaths are directly attributed to the accident, all among the reactor staff and emergency workers. Estimates of the number of deaths potentially resulting from the accident vary enormously; the World Health Organization (WHO) suggest it could reach 4,000 while a Greenpeace report puts this figure at 200,000 or more.

I'm not predicting a number of deaths for Fukushima, I'm just saying it'll be greater than zero as in >0

It will be worse than Three Mile Island. We now have members of the cleanup crew getting large doses (150-200 mSv) which may have added 1% to the chance of them getting cancer.

TMI has been blown way out of context. The IAEA puts the number of cancer deaths at two thirds so it could be 0 or it could be 1. More people will have died from the stress of the event than anything else. News Flashes on TV do cause heart attacks!

Here's a list of IAEA cancer death estimates:

1986 Chenobyl 4000
1957 Kyshtym 150-200
1957 Windscale 33
1979 Three Mile Island 0-1

So TMI simply isn't a worthy comparison. I would say this is similar to Windscale however. As with Fukushima milk and other food products were prevented from entering the food chain for a certain amount of time.


edh, those are some interesting numbers but I keep seeing quotes like this

"Prime Minister Naoto Kan yesterday blamed inadequate tsunami defenses at the plant for the world’s worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986"

So if the Prime Minister actually made that comparison he is either wrong or maybe we should expect more than 200 people to die from the nuclear incident at Fukushima.

I suppose it's also possible that the Prime Minister made the first part of the quote and someone added the comparison in the process of translation or paraphrasing a translation that seemed poorly worded.

But we should also remember that the number of cancer deaths is not the total number of deaths from a incident like this. The workers who died in the first few days of Chernobyl didn't die from cancer. So looking at a table of cancer deaths doesn't tell the whole story.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
dhanson865 wrote:
those are some interesting numbers but I keep seeing quotes like this

"Prime Minister Naoto Kan yesterday blamed inadequate tsunami defenses at the plant for the world’s worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986"

So if the Prime Minister actually made that comparison he is either wrong or maybe we should expect more than 200 people to die from the nuclear incident at Fukushima.

I suppose it's also possible that the Prime Minister made the first part of the quote and someone added the comparison in the process of translation or paraphrasing a translation that seemed poorly worded.

But we should also remember that the number of cancer deaths is not the total number of deaths from a incident like this. The workers who died in the first few days of Chernobyl didn't die from cancer. So looking at a table of cancer deaths doesn't tell the whole story.

Saying that the accident at Fukushima is the worst since Chernobyl does not necessarily mean he is saying that they are comparable. It means that Fukushima is the most serious since Chernobyl, even if Chernobyl may have been far worse (because there was no containment structure at all, whereas Fukushima apparently has a leak it its containment structure.

However, I do believe that Fukushima is a lot worse than the US media is reporting (rarely getting top billing on news broadcasts or web pages).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:09 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
m0002a wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
those are some interesting numbers but I keep seeing quotes like this

"Prime Minister Naoto Kan yesterday blamed inadequate tsunami defenses at the plant for the world’s worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986"

So if the Prime Minister actually made that comparison he is either wrong or maybe we should expect more than 200 people to die from the nuclear incident at Fukushima.

I suppose it's also possible that the Prime Minister made the first part of the quote and someone added the comparison in the process of translation or paraphrasing a translation that seemed poorly worded.

But we should also remember that the number of cancer deaths is not the total number of deaths from a incident like this. The workers who died in the first few days of Chernobyl didn't die from cancer. So looking at a table of cancer deaths doesn't tell the whole story.

Saying that the accident at Fukushima is the worst since Chernobyl does not necessarily mean he is saying that they are comparable. It means that Fukushima is the most serious since Chernobyl, even if Chernobyl may have been far worse (because there was no containment structure at all, whereas Fukushima apparently has a leak it its containment structure.

However, I do believe that Fukushima is a lot worse than the US media is reporting (rarely getting top billing on news broadcasts or web pages).


Good point, "since" does not equal "second only to". I just keep thinking about how bad this is and how big the disconnect is between how bad it is and people saying "It isn't like Chernobyl so it must be more like 3 Mile Island".

This nuclear disaster is so bad no one has even laid eyes or camera lens on the containment vessels yet. Like this post says:

Bendal wrote:
I don't think anything with a camera or eyeball has actually "seen" the exterior of the reactor pressure vessels since the earthquake. The sensors aren't working and the void around the vessels themselves is highly radioactive now. I've not seen any reports saying robots are on the site yet.

Everyone's working off of other data; the presence of radiated water, low pressures in the vessels, etc, and are coming up with explanations as to what is causing these things to happen. The media tends to report people's opinions as hard facts, when no one really knows what the pressure vessel conditions are right now. I've seen both TEPCO and JAIA officials give different explanations as to why there's radiated water everywhere; leaking pipes, leaking pressure vessels, even leaking secondary containment structures. I don't think anyone knows for sure right now if they've got holes in them or not.


Quick summary from the current Wiki article

Quote:
Evidence arose of partial core meltdown in reactors 1, 2, and 3; hydrogen explosions destroyed the upper cladding of the buildings housing reactors 1, 3, and 4; an explosion damaged the containment inside reactor 2; and multiple fires broke out at reactor 4. In addition, spent fuel rods stored in spent fuel pools of units 1–4 began to overheat as water levels in the pools dropped.

On 25 March, Japan's nuclear regulator announced a likely breach and radiation leak in the containment vessel of the unit 3 reactor, the only one at the plant using MOX fuel.[7][8][9] New Scientist reported that measurements taken by the Japanese science ministry and MEXT in areas of northern Japan "far from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant" showed the radioactive caesium fallout levels rival those from the Chernobyl disaster. Previously the publication had reported that world wide measurements of radioactive fallout released from the reactors were "nearing Chernobyl levels". It reported that the preparatory commission of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization had measured levels of iodine-131 at 73% and caesium-137 at 60% the levels released from Chernobyl

Accident rating
Radiation releases during the initial hydrogen explosions

The severity of a nuclear accident is rated on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES). This scale runs from 0, indicating an abnormal situation with no safety consequences, to 7, indicating an accident causing widespread contamination with serious health and environmental effects. The Chernobyl disaster is the only level 7 accident on record, while the Three Mile Island accident was a level 5 accident.

The Japan Atomic Energy Agency initially rated the situation at Unit 1 below both of these previous accidents; on 13 March it announced it was classifying the event at level 4, an "accident with local consequences".[34] On 18 March it raised its rating on Unit 1 to level 5, an "accident with wider consequences", and also assigned this rating to the accidents at Units 2 and 3. It classified the situation at Unit 4 as a level 3 "serious incident".[285]

The Wall Street Journal reported on 25 March that authorities were considering raising the event to level 6, a "serious accident," one level above the Three Mile Island accident, and second only to Chernobyl.[286] On the same day, Asahi Shimbun supported this upgrading, based on the amount of radioactive contamination.[279][287]

Several parties have disputed the Japanese classifications, arguing that the situation is more severe than they are admitting. On 14 March, three Russian experts stated that the nuclear accident should be classified at Level 5, perhaps even Level 6.[288] One day later, the French nuclear safety authority ASN said that the Fukushima plant could be classified as a Level 6.[289] As of 18 March 2011 (2011 -03-18)[update], the French nuclear authority—and as of 15 March 2011 (2011 -03-15)[update], the Finnish nuclear safety authority—estimated the accidents at Fukushima to be at Level 6 on the INES.[290][291] On 24 March, a scientific consultant for Greenpeace, a noted anti-nuclear environmental group, working with data from the Austrian ZAMG[292] and French IRSN, prepared an analysis in which he rated the total Fukushima I accident at INES level 7.[293]


The latest news doesn't make it sound like things are under control so I still expect the severity to increase at this point. I'm not suggesting it'll go critical and blow up, I'm just saying they don't have control of the situation and they haven't acknowledged how bad it was let alone how bad it will be nor do they have a solid plan for what to do next or how to wrap it all up.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:19 am
Posts: 400
Location: Boston, MA, USA
This may be semantics, but I would be absolutely astounded if the estimated deaths caused by this exceeds 2,000, or even 1,000. In my book, that makes this closer to no disaster at all than to Chernobyl.

Now if you take a logarithmic/geometric interpretation of "close" there may be an argument, but I'll stick with linear :)

I'm not arguing that it's not a disaster, but I really don't think Chernobyl comparisons are productive. Also, up until the water from the basement area was analyzed, it was not clear that there had been a vessel breech. In fact, there were indications that the vessels were in tact. So claiming that a vessel breech was obvious at the start is not accurate. Edit 2: I suppose this assumes that there was full disclosure, which may be a problem?

Edit: also, before anyone brings up the hydrogen explosions, it was evident that the explosions actually occurred outside the vessels. Which I suppose indicates a non-air-tight vessel, but nothing like what is now apparent.

_________________
Currently running Mint 14 MATE on all machines.
Desktop/Gaming: E8400 / 650ti + Accelero S1 / Antec Solo
Myth Backend + Home Server: D945GSEJT / WD15EADS / Hauppage 950Q / Home made case
Myth Frontend + HTPC: Sempron 140 / Asus M4A785-M
Notebook:AMD A4-3300M


Last edited by andymcca on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:35 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
http://freevideocoding.com/flvplayer.sw ... start=true

Even if you want to consider the Nuclear situation a non issue. This video of the Tsunami is impressive.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
New Management?

Japan Weighs Entombing Nuclear Plant in Bid to Halt Radiation
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-3 ... actor.html

"Tokyo Electric Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata apologized for the nuclear crisis yesterday and said the power company will do all it can to prevent the catastrophe from worsening. Katsumata took charge of the utility after President Masataka Shimizu, 66, was admitted to a hospital for high blood pressure."

High Blood pressure has no symptoms. The treatment is drugs that lower the pressure. Their effect is almost immediate. I have never heard of anyone being "hospitalized" for high blood pressure. Seems even more transparent than Charlie Sheen's hospitalization for his hernia. Looks like Shimizu San doesn't subscribe to Bushido tradition (seppuku and all)... instead he is following Western ways using a Western disease brought on by a Western diet.

Now why is it Mr. Shimizu had to be relieved of the tiller?

Is there anyone at this point who does not think that maybe it could have been handled better... maybe a lot better?

Is there anyone that doesn't believe perhaps Tokyo Electric Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata thinks so. What do you think?

EDIT: This looks like one of Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata's first acts:
Tzupy wrote:
Better later than never: Safety upgrades ordered at Japan nuclear plants.
Article at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... tml?hpt=T2

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Last edited by ces on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:23 pm 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 1500
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Better later than never: Safety upgrades ordered at Japan nuclear plants.
Article at CNN: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... tml?hpt=T2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:41 am 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
Fukushima Dai-ichi status and prognosis
Posted by Euan Mearns on March 31, 2011 - 1:13am wrote:
The disjointed news flow from Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) continues to provide a confusing picture of the status of the 4 crippled nuclear power stations at Fukushima Dai-ichi on the East coast of Japan. This is leading to a very broad spectrum of opinion on the actual status and future consequences. The spectrum of opinion ranges from those who argue that Fukushima Dai-ichi is on course to become a Chernobyl scale incident or worse, to those who argue this is a storm in a teacup, pointing out that reactors have been hit by a large earthquake, gigantic tsunami and survived with minimal casualties so far. So where does the truth lie?

What do we think we know for sure?

1) The Japanese government have warned of a grave nuclear incident on a number of occasions.

2) The status of the reactors, fuel pools and dispersion of radioactive materials continues to get worse, not better.

3) There are perhaps 7 or 8 reactor loads of fuel in play compared with a single load at Chernobyl and 4 or 5 of those are outside of containment in badly damaged spent fuel pools.

4) This report suggests that daily release of radioactive 131I and 137Cs is running at around 73% and 60% of Chernobyl respectively.

5) The Chernobyl fire burned for 8 to 10 days whilst Fukushima Dai-ichi has been emitting radioactive material for around 15 days with no end in sight.



Comparison of Fukushima Dai-ichi and Chernobyl

There are a number of key differences between Chernobyl and Fukushima Dai-ichi making comparisons of the incidents difficult:

1) The Chernobyl accident took place at fission power blowing the roof of the core and reactor building while Fukushima Dai-ichi was successfully shut down.

2) Chernobyl had a graphite core that burned, spreading radioactive material far and wide.

3) Chernobyl lacked a primary containment system.

4) Chernobyl involved a single reactor load of fuel while Fukushima Dai-ichi likely has 7 to 8 reactor loads spread between the cores of units 1, 2 and 3 and the spent fuel ponds of units 1 to 4.

5) Fukushima Dai-ichi unit 3 has MOX fuel loads containing plutonium in reactor and in spent fuel pool.

6) Fuel in pool of reactor 4 is not spent and is a 'hot' load outside of containment.

7) Fukushima Dai-ichi is located in the heart of Japan, the world's third largest economy whilst Chernobyl is located in Ukraine which has lower economic standing in the world.

In my estimation, the larger mass of fuel, much of it outside of containment, the geographic location and possible socio-economic impacts on Japan, longer duration and open-ended nature of this event and extant risk of explosion and fire will ultimately make Fukushima Dai-ichi the more serious incident.


If you decide to quote part of this post please modify the quote header. I did not write the quoted block, I quoted a portion of an article. If you don't know the source just use quote="unknown source" or quote="quoted article" or even quote="" so it's blank.

Oh, and if you haven't seen these Pics, they are good stills to look at. http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/20 ... om-the-air

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
Radioactivity Now Found in Ground Water

"In a brief statement, Tokyo Electric Power Co., the plant's operator, said a test of groundwater conducted the previous day at the site revealed radioactive iodine-131—a common isotope found there since it was damaged by the earthquake and tsunami on March 11—at levels 10,000 times the limit Japan sets for seawater."

Deserve to Exist / Unthinkable

"The prime minister raised the possibility that the government would take a greater role in nuclear-power operation. His comments, delivered in Tokyo at a press conference with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, appeared to take direct aim at Tepco, the subject of recent speculation that it could be nationalized. "Once this crisis is brought under control, we need to have discussions on how our power companies should look, including whether they should continue to exist," he said.

Documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal this week showed that Tepco had a bare-bones and apparently outdated plan in place to deal with disaster at the site, and that the plant's managers considered the possibility of a severe accident"sosmall that from an engineering standpoint, it is practically unthinkable.
"


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 05358.html

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:19 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Posts: 7354
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
This NOVA program is the most information about the earthquake in Japan that I have seen:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1863101157

_________________
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
"a failure of human decision-making"

"The most serious public safety outcome of the March 11 Japan earthquake might have been avoided. But a government agency and Tokyo Electric Power officials who could have made a difference failed to accept the possibility of an event that they did not expect would happen."

"Analyst/consultant Nassim Nicholas Teleb calls it succumbing to a "black swan" - a failure of human decision-making that he labels "epistemic arrogance" of expertise that leads to self-delusion."

http://www.mauinews.com/page/content.de ... tml?nav=16

_________________
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Aristotle calls man the rational animal. All my life I have been seeking evidence to confirm this" Bertrand Russell
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former" Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:41 pm 
Offline
SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2173
Location: TN, USA
NeilBlanchard wrote:
This NOVA program is the most information about the earthquake in Japan that I have seen:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1863101157


I DVRed it last night and got the family together to watch it this afternoon. It was OK but not as good as the internet coverage I've seen. Definitely saw some new material in it that was worth watching though.

The talk on the drum lately that I thought about while watching that video is evacuation of Tokyo. In the NOVA special they discussed it in regards to a Tsunami, but on the drum they are discussing it in regards to winds blowing radiation in from Fukushima.

Of course both scenarios are far from certain, in fact they may never happen, but if they did evacuating 35 Million+ people from that area isn't likely to happen in a quick or orderly fashion.

_________________
.
Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
RAID levels thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=388987


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: San Jose
Hey, I found this post, it's a summary of a talk given by a guy who worked at a reactor in NJ that was the same model as the ones in Japan. Definitely an interesting perspective. Although it is about a week old, I'm not sure how much more is known now.

http://atomicinsights.com/2011/04/fukushima-nuclear-accident-exceptional-summary-by-murray-e-miles.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Japan's Earthquake & Tsunami Disaster
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:21 pm 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Posts: 7354
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Right, the NOVA program was not as detailed on the nuclear part of this disaster, as it it was on the earthquake and tsunami.

_________________
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 168 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group