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 Post subject: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:26 am 
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Please can someone confirm some things to me about HDMI.

1, HDMI automatically detects and works at the full resolution of the TV like DVI does.

2, HDMI plays movie-audio through the TV speakers regardless of the type of movie type, e.g. MPEG 1/2 AVI (all flavours), MPEG 4, FLV, WMV etc

2a, And that HDMI does not care the source of the video/sound data, e.g. file, CD, DVD, BLU-RAY.

2b, And also that it does not care whether a file is NOT infected with DRM, e.g. DRM is not a requirement for audio to play through the HDMI cable and thne the TV speakers.

3, HDMI plays windows sounds, Skype, Audio and Games sounds/audio and so on through the TV speakers.

4, Will the PC treat a TV attached by HDMI like it does a monitor via VGA/DVI when it comes to turning the screen off.

I do hope that all that I would need to do is tell windows that my default sound device is HDMI for the above to be correct, and that there would be no need for any additional speakers to be attached to the machine for any reason.


Regards Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:25 am 
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I'm fairly certain about my answers. HDCP is Satan's implementation of DRM.

1. HDMI auto-negotiates the resolution options offered by the Display and the Device and chooses the highest available options based on criteria laid out in the HDCP protocol. Certain devices may be "capable" of sending, receiving and displaying certain resolutions, but hdmi versioning and licensing may restrict those devices to a lower resolution format (or not to display at all) to prevent piracy.

2. No. HDMI has the capability to pass audio on all versions, but the video file has to be encoded properly with the audio to pass it.

a. HDMI cables do not care, but HDCP and it's licensing does and may prevent devices from communicating at all

b. DRM *can* be a requirement to play through HDMI

3. Assuming that your display and video card have equivalent HDCP protocol levels *and* your video card possess the ability to hook into the Windows Direct Sound layer, yes. This will obviously make #2 above look wrong.

4. That depends on the display. If it's truly a consumer manufactured HDTV, then not likely. If it's a Samsung 24" monitor with speakers and an HDMI port, then yes it will.

I hate HDCP, more-over I hate HDMI because of it. I am an analog man living in a world overburdened in digital content protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:39 am 
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Quote:
HDCP is Satan's implementation of DRM.

I thought so, although as my questions would suggest I have never used HDCP/HDMI. I am about to do so and want to know in-advance of the obstacles in my path.

Quote:
1. Certain devices may be "capable" of sending, receiving and displaying certain resolutions, but hdmi versioning and licensing may restrict those devices to a lower resolution format (or not to display at all) to prevent piracy.

Bastards :( FYI This is going to be an AMD Fusion system running W7, if that makes any difference.

Quote:
a. HDMI cables do not care, but HDCP and it's licensing does and may prevent devices from communicating at all

Quote:
b. DRM *can* be a requirement to play through HDMI

Presumably I wont know until I try it, I was planning on using "Media Player Classic" as part of the "K-Lite Codec Pack", and various forms of media to test it with, also I will need to find a DVD movie from somewhere to test as well. Additionally I was planning on removing "Internet Exploder" and possibly "Windows Media Player" if it doesnt play nicely - I suspect that WMP has DRM infection, and that MPC does not, although by the sounds of it, there might not be any difference in reality.

Quote:
3. Assuming that your display and video card have equivalent HDCP protocol levels *and* your video card possess the ability to hook into the Windows Direct Sound layer, yes. This will obviously make #2 above look wrong.

Looks to be a "wait and see".

Quote:
4. That depends on the display. If it's truly a consumer manufactured HDTV, then not likely. If it's a Samsung 24" monitor with speakers and an HDMI port, then yes it will.

I will be testing it on an old 42" LG plasma that does not reach 720, a brand bnew 720 Samsung 32" LCD, and a brand new LG of unknown spec.

Quote:
I hate HDCP, more-over I hate HDMI because of it. I am an analog man living in a world overburdened in digital content protection.

Likewise, that is why I call DRM an "infection", it is simply nasty and does not do what it was targetted to do, it just gets in the way and pisses people off.

Looks like I will be doing some testing and then get back to you with the answers on some of those points that are not clear.

Thanks for the info.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:24 pm 
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1. Not necessarily. However if you have a standard resolution display (720p/1080p or any of the *XGA resolutions), most video cards will be able to automatically configure to the native resolution of your display. I never had to configure the resolution of my AMD based HTPC, but I did have to manually reduce the overscan to 0%. Changing the pixel format to "0-255" from "16-235" should also be done as well.

2. This is more dependent on your audio device drivers, codecs and playback software. Simply put, they will pass all audio through HDMI if configured correctly (which isn't hard). Make sure you select the proper playback device and install the correct drivers. ATI HDMI is usually a separate playback device and has its own driver.

DRM on media will be restricted as the OS/driver level, not the connector. If the device is not compatible with certain DRM hardware restrictions, you won't be able to use it period. This should not affect anything with an HTPC. Any DRM enabled on music and video will play through an HDMI connector just as well as with DVI (HDCP is used on DVI too).

3. See above.,

4. Yes, if the display supports it.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:45 pm 
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jhhoffma wrote:
1. Not necessarily. However if you have a standard resolution display (720p/1080p or any of the *XGA resolutions), most video cards will be able to automatically configure to the native resolution of your display. I never had to configure the resolution of my AMD based HTPC, but I did have to manually reduce the overscan to 0%. Changing the pixel format to "0-255" from "16-235" should also be done as well.

2. This is more dependent on your audio device drivers, codecs and playback software. Simply put, they will pass all audio through HDMI if configured correctly (which isn't hard). Make sure you select the proper playback device and install the correct drivers. ATI HDMI is usually a separate playback device and has its own driver.

DRM on media will be restricted as the OS/driver level, not the connector. If the device is not compatible with certain DRM hardware restrictions, you won't be able to use it period. This should not affect anything with an HTPC. Any DRM enabled on music and video will play through an HDMI connector just as well as with DVI (HDCP is used on DVI too).

3. See above.,

4. Yes, if the display supports it.
1. Not necessarily. However if you have a standard resolution display (720p/1080p or any of the *XGA resolutions), most video cards will be able to automatically configure to the native resolution of your display. I never had to configure the resolution of my AMD based HTPC, but I did have to manually reduce the overscan to 0%. Changing the pixel format to "0-255" from "16-235" should also be done as well.

2. This is more dependent on your audio device drivers, codecs and playback software. Simply put, they will pass all audio through HDMI if configured correctly (which isn't hard). Make sure you select the proper playback device and install the correct drivers. ATI HDMI is usually a separate playback device and has its own driver.

DRM on media will be restricted as the OS/driver level, not the connector. If the device is not compatible with certain DRM hardware restrictions, you won't be able to use it period. This should not affect anything with an HTPC. Any DRM enabled on music and video will play through an HDMI connector just as well as with DVI (HDCP is used on DVI too).

3. See above.,

4. Yes, if the display supports it.


Thanks, that makes me feel much happier, it now sounds like the dreaded DRM wont get in the way much or even at all.

In a week or less I shall give you some feedback about how it goes.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:21 pm 
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OK, picture this (no pun intended).
DVD player and TV hooked up via HDMI.

Both are off, DVD player is turned on to listen to a CD.
TV powers on automatically. Uh, who asked you?
TV is manually turned off, which turns off the DVD player.
Again who asked you?

Trying multiple variations with these 2 particular pieces
of equipment there is no way to listen to a CD through the
DVD player with the TV off. OK, they asked for it:
HOW GREEN!

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Quote:
HOW GREEN!


Irony is dificult to spot using text, therefore it would be better to use a ? and make it into a question.

In any instance why a CD.? Why a TV.? This seems to be taking the convergence of devices capabilities to the limit, and obviously from your testing proves that just because something CAN do XY and Z doesnt mean that it is a good choice, especially from the green POV.

A low powered machine that is capable of all kinds of media playback, that is attached to a TV via HDMI and some speakers, by the usual method can be setup to play audio via the speakers, or audio imbedded in video via the TV, all you need is to add some speakers to fix your isssue. Although the savings made on your electric bill by having the TV off will still take a while to pay for the speakers - the ideal solution would of course be a TV that is capable of turning on the speakers and the screen separately.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:29 pm 
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In this case the DVD player is built into the receiver. The TV speakers are not used, not wanted either.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:17 pm 
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aristide1 wrote:
In this case the DVD player is built into the receiver. The TV speakers are not used, not wanted either.

Can I ask what the receiver is?
It's just that only yesterday I bought my mother an Onkyo all in one box that plays DVD's and CD's as well as being an amplifier and FM radio and it's connected to the TV by HDMI. When I set it up for her I didn't think to check that the CD would play with the TV switched off. It seemed an ideal solution for an older person with no tech knowledge.

If you turn the TV off at the wall socket does the receiver still work?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:01 am 
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A Panasonic unit.

Quote:
If you turn the TV off at the wall socket does the receiver still work?

Haven't tried that.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:08 am 
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I see the big questions have already been answered, so I'll simply contribute my experiences that deal with power and signal issues:

Power. Hook up Benq G2400W 24" TFT screen to desktop using HDMI on Radeon HD 5770, screen will never turn off ever. Not even if all I do is fire up the PC and the screen, and then turn the PC off from the OS or power button. Standby capability is just gone. Oh, and the screen displays BRIGHT BLUE for maximum annoyance.

Signal. Assuming HDMI would make good Plug and Play, hook up Asus UL30A laptop with HDMI to said TFT for some low-power video playback. Exact same problem is replicated, in addition to which HDMI fails to negotiate signal multiple times and laptop fails to display on its own screen because it keeps thinking HDMI is plugged in. Resolution has to be selected a couple times but mostly is right... in cases where the picture comes through at all of course.

Annoyance. Both on laptop and desktop the HDMI sound competes with the actual sound source to be used in Windows audio manager. Inconvenient when toggling sources for video playback. Nvidia (now using GeForce 460 on desktop) puts 4 instances in the Playback Device list for HDMI sound, pushing my SPDIF option off the visible part of the list. I am pissed off as I try to troubleshoot sound issues between analog, HDMI and SPDIF.

I used good quality, gold-plated, well-insulated, expensive, full-resolution-guaranteed cabling with a <2 metre run.

A pox upon HDCP, and consequently HDMI. This is just good technology being ruined by paranoid and intrusive DRM. Guess we'll have to wait for modern connectors for another 6-12 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Wow, your having a shitty time there.

Working on the principle of "Occam's Razor" I suggest that its the screen that is to blame in your case, although to fully test it without trying another screen, and also without having to do a clean install of your system you should try the following.

Test using the BIOS, do what you do, but dont go into windows, go into the BIOS instead, if it does it there, test the other graphics card, if that also does it, your down to a hardware fault for sure.

Its not going to be TWO graphics cards, so that leaves your cable, your screen, or some bizzare interaction with your system - to test the last point, pull the mains power cable to the PC once you have shut it down and still got the bright blue display, if it persists then its not your system.

I doubt very much that its the cable, they are just a bunch of wires, obviously this is a dodle to test - borrow another cable.

I suspect that you will find that it is your monitor. Sorry.

Although al of the above only covers thye display portion and not the sound, that is another matter altogether that might or might not have anything to do with the display problem.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:38 pm 
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The only major issue with HDMI is the weak connector. CEC is a bit annoying, though. The Windows implementation of audio, along with the likes of Realtek, ATI, nVidia, and Creative, is crap, but then, Windows has had an utterly laughable audio (.. actually, all APIs, ABIs, and driver) stack since day one.

Unfortunately the varying implementations among TVs, monitors, and ATI/nVidia are mostly non-compliant, so HDMI is a gamble based upon your display device and the seemingly random functionality or lack thereof of the drivers involved.

Das_Saunamies wrote:
I used good quality

Debatable.
Quote:
gold-plated

Pointless unless both ends are also gold-plated, actually harmful when not.
Quote:
well-insulated

What does insulation matter?


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:53 am 
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I love how someone wants to argue the details of my cable. I added the description as an afterthought so no one thinks I'm using some sort of home-brew networked repeater setup. Gold-plated is the de facto sales pitch for everything from $9.99 to $999 cables and I think that makes it funny. :P

And yes, the monitor is my prime suspect as well, but I don't give a damn - DVI has worked everywhere, every time for me. HDMI I have mostly had bad experiences with. Basic technology like a video connection needs to be plug-and-play, seriously.

I pitched in my 2 cents because it was relevant to the questions asked, nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:33 am 
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Well, I'm sure all that insulation will prove very useful when running your HDMI cables around 11kV uninsulated power lines! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Questions about HDMI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:12 am 
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Let's not turn this into a cable-snob thread, please! There's enough foolishness on both ends of that spectrum...

I think Das's point was that he didn't just use some cheap "grocery-store brand" cables. Which I would agree that since his run is <2m, the cable is not the likely culprit.

Das, you may want to try and disable some of your other connections (either in the BIOS, Device Manager or Sound Options) if you are not using them, to avoid any conflicts.

HDMI at it's core of video signal is no different from DVI, which is why they are so compatible. HDMI just adds additional signals along with it (data, audio, etc.). The problem is usually with the software/firmware implementation of the signal output. Audio drivers, in particular as Monkeh16 are notorious for not being standardized with how they distribute sound. The lack of standardization with codecs doesn't help, either.

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