Any reason to choose a passive 3870 over a passive 4670?

[Mohan]

Hey guys...

Well... I'm looking for some update... currently I'm using a Asus EAX 1950 Pro, which has a fan that bothers me slightly. So... I had a look out for DirectX 10.1 enabled cards (well, just be future safe a bit, you see how long I endured with the 1950 Pro). So my choices came down to these two:

- Sapphire Ultimate 4670 (512MB GDDR3, €70), passively cooled
- Sapphire Ultimate 3870 (512MB GDDR4, €100), passively cooled

The only drawback I might mind is that the 4670 has 1x RGB and 1x DVI whereas the 3870 has 2x DVI outputs... guess I'm looking for a reason for not saving the extra €30 cash and invest that into some gimmicks... anyways... which one would you pick and why? Oh and, planned usage: Frequently desktop and apps (it should be able to do a future 26" and 19" dual screen desktop easily), gaming not so often and a bit HD video. The 1950 Pro did well so far I think. Just hoping to get also a bit more out of the HD video corner, or am I mistaken here to gather some performance with the purchase?

Thanks in advance!

[Redzo]

DX10.1 is a...well nobody uses it (sorry AMD). And don't forget that DX11 is around the corner (win 7).

Why don't get 4830 instead ? Faster and (at least here in sweden) it cost same money as that 3870 you wrote about.
Performancewise 4830 is running in circles around 3870. If you have to choose between 3870 and 4670 I would take 4670 any day. Performance is pritty much the same but 4670 is cooler and more energy efficient. Not to mention that it's 30€ cheaper.

[QuietOC]

- Sapphire Ultimate 4670 (512MB GDDR3, €70), passively cooled
- Sapphire Ultimate 3870 (512MB GDDR4, €100), passively cooled

The only drawback I might mind is that the 4670 has 1x RGB and 1x DVI whereas the 3870 has 2x DVI outputs... which one would you pick and why?

Oh and, planned usage: Frequently desktop and apps.... gaming not so often and a bit HD video.

The 4xx0 series have better HD support. The 3870 is faster at 3D than the 4670, though the 3xx0 have slow AA. The 4670 should be much cheaper than it is, but if gaming isn't much of a consideration it is fine--though why not go lower with a 4650 or lower then?

The better integrated video (Geforce 8x00/9x00 and Radeon HD 3x00) is usable for many games and just as good for HD and desktop apps. For gaming I got a Geforce 9600 GSO and a Geforce 9600GT. The former was a great deal, the later was not.

[~El~Jefe~]

the 3870 is not faster than the 4670. not always. I have seen some benches where its even, and 1-2 where the 4670 beats it slightly.

the question is: have you looked at a 4830? its 20%+ faster in just about every game over a 3870 and is also quite cheap.

i play Left 4 dead at 1920x1200 with 2xAA 4x AF on for super smooth framerates. In truth, all 3 cards are fine. I would go with the 4830 OC from MSI. it uses a lot less power as its built efficiently and kicks but gaming.

If you got the 4670, thats the best of all worlds and dollar value is immense. I just game quite a bit and recommend the 4830 if you do as well.

[FartingBob]

Get a 4670 with 2 DVI outputs, not the one you listed.

[Mohan]

Thanks guys for your helpful answers!

There is no passively cooled 4830 availible? The only passively cooled 4670 with 2x DVI availible is the HIS iSilence 4...
So you think I should choose between:

- HIS Radeon HD 4670 iSilence 4 (1024MB DDR3(!), 2x DVI, €100), passively cooled
- Sapphire Ultimate 4670 (512MB GDDR3, 1x RGB, 1x DVI, €70), passively cooled
- Sapphire Ultimate 3870 (512MB GDDR4, 2x DVI, €100), passively cooled
- Sparkle GeForce 9600 GT (512MB GDDR3, 2x DVI, €95), passively cooled [G94 (D9P) chip inside]
- Sparkle GeForce 9800 GT (512MB GDDR3, 2x DVI €105), passively cooled [renamed 8800 GT, G92 (D9P) chip inside]
- Club 3D Radeon HD 4650 (512MB DDR2(!), 2x DVI, €60), passively cooled
- Zotac GeForce 9600 GSO (512MB GDDR3, 2x DVI, €100) including Accelero S1 purchase

I'd think in that comparison the 4670 is still a good choice as it will overall have the least power consumption of all, and makes it hard to find a reason that justifies the €30-€35 more for another card. The current CPU is a AM2 5200+, so I'd rather dump the whole PC in the next 2 years and won't migrate the gfx card I guess if I'm looking for more gfx power...

One thing could change the choice tho: actively cooled cards where the fan sits idle on 2D work. I don't mind some noise in 3D environment, but on 2D it just should be no noise at all. Any cards do this?

[QuietOC]

One thing could change the choice tho: actively cooled cards where the fan sits idle on 2D work. I don't mind some noise in 3D environment, but on 2D it just should be no noise at all. Any cards do this?

You do know most of these "passive" video cards require active airflow (i.e. generous case airflow)? They will likely overheat when stressed in a truly quiet system. My last "passive" card -- a very low power Geforce 7300GT did this, and you are looking at much hotter cards. The reference ATI designs seem pretty aggressive about keeping fan speeds low. Your system could end up noiser with a "passive" video card.

Really the best option for GPU heat is the same as CPU heat. A big heatpipe heatsink with a large slow fan exhausting all the heated air directly out of the case. This is not anything you can buy retail on a video card.

My old Radeon X800GTO continues to run just fine with a just a stock Pentium 4 heatsink bolted to it. The heatsink takes up about 3 slots and the heat rises directly into the northbridge and CPU heatsinks, so the CPU and PS fans need to run faster. I actually quieted it by placing a cardboard duct around the expansion slot area powered by a low rpm 120mm fan.

I am also happy with the noise level of my stock 2-slot actively cooled eVGA 9600GSO. It is not silent, but it is quieter than my Scythe S-flex "F" at 12V, and it dumps most of the GPU heated air outside the case. Gigabyte's heatpipe cooler on my 9600GT is much louder and dumps nearly all the heat into the case.

the 3870 is not faster than the 4670. not always. I have seen some benches where its even, and 1-2 where the 4670 beats it slightly.

Some basic specs:

Fill Rate (Gpixel/s)
4670 -- 6.0
3870 -- 12.4
4830 -- 9.2

Bilinear Texel Filtering (Gtexels/s)
4670 -- 24.0
3870 -- 12.4
4830 -- 18.4

Bilinear FP16 Texel Filtering (Gtexels/s)
4670 -- 12.0
3870 -- 12.4
4830 -- 9.2

Memory Bandwidth (GB/s)
4670 -- 32.0
3870 -- 72.0
4830 -- 57.6

Shader Arithmetic (GFLOPS)
4670 -- 480
3870 -- 496
4830 -- 736

Each has their weakness, but outside of filtering the 4670 will never even be as fast as the 3870. 4830 has lots more shader power but has slow HD filtering. The 3870 will beat the 4670 at everything except high AA levels. The 3870 can be twice as fast as the 4670 at high resolution without AA. I personally went for the cheaper Geforce 9600s to get nVidia's fast 16xCSAA.

[Mohan]

I just also edited in the 9600 GSO plus Accelero S1 in the above listing.

Well, yes, I'd think having the Xigmatek HDT-S1283 12cm fan right above the passive cooler and a 12cm Noiseblocker NB-UltraSilentFan SX1 @7V (also the same as intake in the front) right next to that blowing out the of the case should be some airflow, let alone the 12cm fan above in the Corsair 450VX also taking out air.

See the current setup here. Do you really think I'll run into problems with a passively cooled 4670 there?

[QuietOC]

I just also edited in the 9600 GSO plus Accelero S1 in the above listing.

The 512MB 9600GSO only has 48 shaders. It is definitely the slowest card of the lot, but at least it is also the coolest too. I don't even think the full 9600GT is all that great. It seems like games are becoming more shader intense. The Radeons are going to get relatively faster compared to Geforce 9600s as time goes on.

Anandtech compared the 4670 and 3870. So the 4670 is a little faster at 800x600 with 4xAA.

[Mohan]

Thanks... I won't gain much with playing at 1280x1024 then choosing the 3870 over the 4670... so what's your opinion on a possible heat problem with the given circumstances?

[thejamppa]

4670 is good choice under 1600x1200 resolutions. Card is smaller, puts out less heat, doesn't require extra power and generally has very good power play function.

If you don't use AA, then 4670 offers tremendeously horse power for bargan price. 3870 gets good when you need a lot memory, like lot's of huge and high quality textures and AA is enabled, then its 256-bit interface starts kicking in...

[QuietOC]

If you don't use AA, then 4670 offers tremendeously horse power for bargan price.

Actually the reverse is true. The 4670 is only relatively good with high levels of AA--otherwise it is rather poor (slower than a 3850), and it runs out of memory bandwidth very quickly as resolution scales. Lack memory bandwidth nearly always limits the 4670's performance. It is shame there is not a GDDR5 version. Definitely avoid the ones with slower memory.

Thanks... I won't gain much with playing at 1280x1024 then choosing the 3870 over the 4670... so what's your opinion on a possible heat problem with the given circumstances?

At that resolution with 4XAA the two cards would be pretty even in performance. In newer, more intensive games where you don't have enough performance to use AA the 3870 will be faster (25 to 50% faster).

The 4670 is definitely much cooler running than the 3870 ~10W less at idle and ~30W less at load. The 4650 idle power is as close to using an IGP as you can get. A cheap 4650 with fast memory should be pretty good.

[Mohan]

You seem to avoid the heat question like the plague... if you don't want to suggest anything it's fine for me, please just say so.

Well, all 4650 GDDR3 models seem to come with VGA and DVI, plus they're all actively cooled. Any passively cooled and all other are DDR2 only, which I wouldn't really like to get now in a new purchase. The 4650 GDDR3 are all about €60-€65, so I'd have to get a passive cooler for more than the 4670 is already coming at stock. Why should I get a smaller speced card with the need to mod it when there is a cheaper card with better specs in your opionon?

[thejamppa]

it is shame there is not a GDDR4 or GDDR5 version. Definitely avoid the slower DDR3/DDR2 cards.

Sapphire has GDDR4 version of HD 4670:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products ... =279&grp=3

[QuietOC]

Any passively cooled and all other are DDR2 only, which I wouldn't really like to get now in a new purchase. The 4650 GDDR3 are all about €60-€65, so I'd have to get a passive cooler for more than the 4670 is already coming at stock. Why should I get a smaller speced card with the need to mod it when there is a cheaper card with better specs in your opionon?

The 4650 and 4670 are the same chip. Okay, the slower clockspeed 4650 has a 55W TDP compared to 70W for the 4670. Plain DDR2 is both cheap and very low wattage. Plain DDR3 might be better, but the GDDR versions are certainly faster.

Sapphire has GDDR4 version of HD 4670:
http://www.sapphiretech.com/us/products ... =279&grp=3

I saw there were some GDDR4 versions listed on Newegg, I thought they may be typos. What I thought was intriguing was a4650 with GDDR4 for $59. Both of these have HDMI + DVI + VGA which is better than dual DVI for me. That 4650 might be a lot nicer than my Geforce 9600s--has anyone seen a review of one of these?

Here's a review and another and one with power numbers (9W Idle / 70W load). The GDDR4 is only 10% faster than the normal GDDR3, so it can't help much. This GPU still needs GDDR5. On the positive side GDDR4 is more power efficient than GDDR3, so these might be the cards to get for performance/Watt.

[thejamppa]

Yeah, performance isn't much, but what seems to be good in Sapphire's GDDR4 version, is the cooler. Its big with what seems to be 92mm fan (its bigger than Asus' HD 4670 which as Accelero L1 OEM cooler with 80mm fan ). That looks really promising. The few reviews say card is cool and quiet but I doubt that it will be SPCR quiet.'

However it is positive to see bigger fans in cooling solutions.

[QuietOC]

Yeah, performance isn't much, but what seems to be good in Sapphire's GDDR4 version, is the cooler. Its big with what seems to be 92mm fan.

Benchmark Review claims it is an Arctic Cooling Heatsink and Fan

[Plekto]

My solution has always been to place a slot fan 2 slots away from the video card. (leave a bit of air space) Combined with a large passive cooler, this pulls off enough air. Not silent, but worlds quieter than any OEM video card fan. I really can't hear the thing anyways at 7V.

[Mohan]

This GDDR4 card cooler looks intriguing... There seems no other card with this cooling solution around... though I read somewhere that the cooler is not temperature controlled, which makes it less interesting. I don't think we'll see a 46xx GDDR5 version anytime soon if ever, the price difference is just too high to any current model with GDDR5 atm. Also all GDDR5 models have a 256bit memory interface and all 46xx only a 128bit memory interface. The funny thing I noticed is, that no 512bit GDDR5 card is around either.

QuietOC... the heat question... you just want to leave it there it seems. It's not that I raised this part of the topic, but ok.

[QuietOC]

I don't think we'll see a 46xx GDDR5 version anytime soon if ever, the price difference is just too high to any current model with GDDR5 atm.

QuietOC... the heat question... you just want to leave it there it seems. It's not that I raised this part of the topic, but ok.

The replacement for the 4670 is suppossedly going to use GDDR5 and have as many shaders as the 4830 but with a 128-bit memory interface. But that is all rumor and speculation right now.

I can't tell you what cards are going to overheat, but it happens. Avoid factory overclocked cards--factories don't know how to overclock. Of what you have listed the 55W TDP 4650 is definitely going to be the coolest running card. Well, the 9600GSO you linked to might be 55nm part and be very cool too, but it is hard to know what you getting with nVidia these days.

I lean towards saving money--there is always something better coming out. I am very happy with my $50 96-shader 9600GSO. If you are courageous just find the cheapest fast card and swap a scap CPU heatsink to it. I keep thinking my Zalman CNSP-7000Cu would make a nice GPU cooler...

[thejamppa]

Yeah, performance isn't much, but what seems to be good in Sapphire's GDDR4 version, is the cooler. Its big with what seems to be 92mm fan.

Benchmark Review claims it is an Arctic Cooling Heatsink and Fan

That is very well possible. That cooler looks just upgraded and beefed up Accelero L1 with bigger fan.

[Mohan]

I also lean towards saving money... on a 2-year term calculation that includes power costs... so I guess the 4670 may be it, maybe with CPU cooler... but that's still a fan more... I'd first test it with case fans @12V and then come down as far as I could to have still acceptable temperatures.

Do you accidently happen to know the current maximum I should not exceed (ambient, RAM, GPU temperature) to keep the investment fairly save? Thanks!

[QuietOC]

I also lean towards saving money... on a 2-year term calculation that includes power costs... so I guess the 4670 may be it, maybe with CPU cooler... but that's still a fan more...

More fans are quieter than fewer fans at the same airflow (i.e. more slower fans is quieter than a single fan pushing the same amount of air.) The ideal is 3 - ~500rpm 120mm exhaust fans. 1 for the PS, 1 for CPU, 1 for GPU. The best low noise, high wattage setup would be something like a Ninja Mini on the GPU and a HR01+ on the CPU both ducted to separate the heated air from each other and from the the PS intake.

You can get by with something much simpler with a 4670. A modestly large scrap aluminum CPU heatsink will be plenty to cool the 4670 (which nearly never gets close to its 70W TDP--unless you run Furmark on it). Orient the heatsink fins to go from the front of the case to the back of the case. Give it a little airflow too.

The trickiest part is marking where to drill the holes into the heatsink to mount it to the card. You can tap the holes with a steel or brass bolt with a grove filed into the end of it to cut the threads (brass is easier to file and still harder than Al--a brass motherboard standoff will work). You'll need a few longer bolts with the same threads to actually screw into the heatsink from the back of card. You don't need to use wimpy springs, just tighten the bolts gently and evenly to your desired heatsink mounting pressure.

You can seperate the GPU heated air from the CPU/northbridge with a piece of cardboard. Then take off all the expansion slot plates and place a quiet fan in front of the card, and you now have a 4-or-more-slot ducted cooler for your GPU. You might want to put another piece of cardboard below/around the GPU heatsink to channel the air through it. You could bend the cardboard into a 3-sided duct to completely sorround the video card, if you want to get fancy. Hot glue works well to hold the cardboard in place. Hot glue and cardboard both muffle sound well too, so use them generously.

This is a little more work than just buying a "passive" video card, but if you have the parts it is basically free.

[Mohan]

Would you think the space between my CPU cooler and the case fan is too much to take enough effect on a passively cooled Sapphire Ultimate with most fins on top of the card? Yeah, they'd both had to handle hotter air then... but then again, the only fan that's temperature controlled atm is the Corsair 450VX PSU fan everything else is fixed voltage (I just like a constant hum better than a varying).

[QuietOC]

This card is designed to add the GPU heat to your CPU and PS. The fins in that heatsink on the top of that card are going the wrong direction. It seems like a lot of the "passive" cards are like this. Will it work okay? Maybe, but it is hardly ideal.

Also this card still takes up 2 slots. Wouldn't it be simpler to just stick a big 2 slot heatsink on the hot side of the card? I know they intend this backside heatsink to pull heat up off the card in a standard ATX case, but what happens when you put this in a BTX or other "upside down" case?

Yeah, they'd both had to handle hotter air then... but then again, the only fan that's temperature controlled atm is the Corsair 450VX PSU fan everything else is fixed voltage (I just like a constant hum better than a varying).

That was the problem with me and my "passive" X800GTO. The PS was taking in too much GPU heated air and needing to run its fan too fast.

[Mohan]

So I'm probably better off with a side-panel exhausting fan when using the passive variant. Well... I'm still undecided Actually if I knew I could mod that GDDR4 version fan to cool temperature controlled I'd probably get that one... Thanks for all the help!

[QuietOC]

So I'm probably better off with a side-panel exhausting fan when using the passive variant. Well... I'm still undecided Actually if I knew I could mod that GDDR4 version fan to cool temperature controlled I'd probably get that one... Thanks for all the help!

Any fan sitting on a side panel vent is too loud for me. At least the noise of a standard 2-slot blower heatsink is muffled inside the case.



The heatsink on the HIS card looks much better. That would be easy to duct properly. It is definitely not worth the price premium though.

[thejamppa]

QuietOC, also that Sapphire Ultimate has one thing that peoples did not easily noticed: Its memory has been underclocked. When stock is 2 Ghz in stock model, passive HD 4670 Ultimate has Memroy 1,73 Ghz. Other than that, Sapphires passive card is very good what I've read reviews. The cooler is more than effective to keep core nice and cool without any noise.

[QuietOC]

QuietOC, also that Sapphire Ultimate has one thing that peoples did not easily noticed: Its memory has been underclocked. When stock is 2 Ghz in stock model, passive HD 4670 Ultimate has Memroy 1,73 Ghz.

The Sapphire card on Newegg claims "2000MHz GDDR3". The HIS card clearly has 1GB "1746MHz" DDR3. I wonder if the Sapphire card is really DDR3 too. Normal DDR3 is suppossed to be much cooler than the GDDR3, so it would make sense for both companies to use it on passive designs. I wouldn't trust Newegg or these companies' websites for accurate technical information.

I'd rather get "2200MHz" GDDR4 card than "1746MHz" DDR3, but who knows? Video cards often have underclocked memory. My GSO has 1GHz GDDR3 chips clocked at a mere 800MHz.

[Mohan]

What's the possibilities (and possible effect) of underclocking the memory by software? Like having graphics profiles for 2D and activate another for 3D gaming? Sorry for asking so many dumb questions