New card for the holidays- which one?

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:00 pm

Okay, so like many people I feel like I want a new video card for the holidays. I currently am running a "superclocked" x1800XT, and I like it, but it's really not much compared to the current batch of hot cards. My price limit is around $250, I have more important things to pay for like groceries than a $500 card. Currently, it's coming down to 2 cards.
Radeon 3870 vs. 8800GT

I've got a PNY reference style 8800GT card on backorder at buy.com for $248.99, free shipping. No ETA on arrival and phones at buy.com are down, lol.

Frys.com has a 3870 on backorder, ETA "mid to late december", $229.99 with a $20 mail in rebate.

These are the best prices I've found.

I'd kind of like to get the ATI card but it's hard to say, 8800GT still beats it in 90% of benchmarks, cheating drivers aside. And neither of them are widely available, and price gouging is rampant.

Any suggestions, or pointers as far as good deals go?

Thanks.

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:30 pm

You summed it up except for how the ATI cards are cooler and thus quieter. So make the call man, make that call and pull that trigger.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:17 pm

8800gt works a bit better/faster.

also draws some more heat on load and 2x as much on idle. ATI put a lot of power saving tech in the 3800 series.

ATI supposedly has superior (by a small amount) image clarity in HD movies over a 8000 series Nvidia as well as the best offloading of work from cpu during 1080p decoding.

shrugs? worth it for less frames? most would say not as any hd high tech machine looks fantastic. I personally am going the 3870 route as it is perfect fit for what i do. I keep my comp on 24/7 and watch highest end stuff on my computer as a tv. (planar 26" IPS lcd... moan...)

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:29 pm

Oh also, the 3870 has a better stock cooling solution, although larger.

8800GT supports many aftermarket coolers including the fabulous and frugal Accelero S1.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:58 am

8800GT's avaibility is still crap...

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:34 am

To be fair availability is crap everywhere for everything.

I just placed an order for a Visiontek 3870 from Dell, it came to 237.xx with free shipping and tax. He estimated ship date of December 12th.

I also got a hold of the buy.com people, my 3rd time calling, 35 min wait. They said they have no ETA on the 8800GT.

Looks like idle power consumption for the 3870 is lower, but load is the same.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:58 am

If you want absolutely best perfromance in game in price of very hot GPU and PCB (aluminium heatsink with nickelplated copper core for GPU) 8800GT is for you. The construction of cooler and temperatures they have measured for overclocked models have made me re-think wether get it or not. With good aftermarket cooler 8800GT will be beast unleashed.

8800GT:
+ Fast, very fast. Equal to 8800GTX in some games
+ Price
+Single slot
+ Has wide range aftermarket coolers already
- Hot, even PCB runs very hot ( makes me worried about how long such card would last)
- Noisiest card Nvidia has made long time
- Somewhat limited overcloking potential due fan construction and already hot running components. Factory settings are already 10% higher than nVidia really planned, some says.
(- According some peoples image quality cannot match Ati's.)

Hd3800-series does have lower power consumption, full copper heatsinks, they run cooler. They're not as fast as 8800GT but seems to offer better image quality and better quality coolers, which many have said to be quiet (not nearly SPCR quiet I believe )

HD3850
+ Fast, faster than 8800GTS rev 1 in some games.
+ Copper heatsink cooler, single slot. Surprisingly quiet
+ Low power consumption in idle, 3-phase power managment
+ Price ( is roughly at same levels with 8600 GTS, which it completely dominates )
+ Overcloking potential
+Crossfire can utilize HD3870 as 2nd card

-VRM cooling. Will be problematic for passive coolers.
-512mb GDDR4 model is due next year
- Cannot match speed of 8800GT

HD3870
+ Fast ( usually match HD2900XT speeds, sometimes a head, sometimes looses )
+ Dualslot, case exhausting cooler
+ 3-phase power managment, takes a lot less energy than HD2900 series
+ Cool card
+ Overcloking potential with fixed bios
+Crossfire can utilize HD3850 as 2nd card

- Not as fast as 8800GT
- Price, invest bit more and get 8800GT
- Bios problems in earliest models ( affects only overclocking )
- VRM's makes passive cooling hard.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:45 am

I wonder where most people are getting their cards from? Some people were fortunate enough to actually get one already, but supplies are so limited.

I placed an order from a third company, lol. We'll see if they ship mine before they run out of stock, they said they had 10 when I checked the inventory.

Arvo · Post by **Arvo** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:59 am

djkest wrote:I wonder where most people are getting their cards from?

We [our tiny mostly software company] have good relationship with one major hardware importer and reseller here. Some personal talks with their beautiful saleswoman and after one week HD3870 was on table

But I've heard that some (few) people happened to get 8800GT just by ordering online - they (pre)ordered it directly after announced and got it 2-3 weeks later.

curtisfong · Post by **curtisfong** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:35 am

http://accessories.us.Dell.com/sna/prod ... lid=566643

According to anandtech the 8800GT has better performance per watt, slightly higher image quality, and would definitely be the better choice if you game. Both cards have UVD (GT lacks vc1 but this probably will not matter much since vc1 doesn't load the cpu much).

Disadvantages of the 8800GT would be higher idle power consumption (~40w), and a loud single slot cooler which you would have to tweak with rivatuner to run the fan faster as temps increase (while gaming). This of course will add more noise.

But for $207 + the cost of an AC1 at SVC I think it is the better choice (and this is what I just purchased), especially since the new GTS will probably be at least $300, if not much more due to supply / demand.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:53 am

curtisfong wrote:http://accessories.us.Dell.com/sna/prod ... lid=566643
, slightly higher image quality,

That's new to me. I've heard completely opposite. anandtech... wait isn't it same guys review that made the notorious nVidia "faked review" for 8800GT, where it was given some results of 8800GTX and in some places HD2900XT's results?

Edit:
Some links for the HD3870 and 8800GT image quality. Be your own judge:

http://iax-tech.com/video/3870/38704.htm
http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/AMD_Rad ... 92-14.html
http://www.elitebastards.com/cms/index. ... mitstart=0

curtisfong · Post by **curtisfong** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:46 pm

Both companies are still tweaking their drivers. In the first url you posted the reviewer noted on the next page that renaming crysis.exe resulted in more fps and normal image quality (http://iax-tech.com/video/3870/38705.htm).

Also, their power measurement results are different that most other review sites..they have the GT drawing the same power at idle as the 3870.

It's pretty clear that the 8800GT has more FPS, higher efficiency, and the same image quality as the 3870. But it's up to the purchaser to decide how much more they are willing to spend for this. Also, an aftermarket cooler is almost mandatory for the GT, which will add to its final cost.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:11 pm

How do you get $207 from that link, I see $259.

I see they have an XFX 8800GT for $234, but the information is incomplete.

BTW, NCIX really botched up my order today. I called them up, they guarenteed me I had a card, but it looks like they sold out before they shipped mine. Their phone support really sucks, and I probably got screwed out of the free games as well.

Edit: I logged in using my education info, and I got the price. Here's to a superclocked 8800GT for $220 shipped! who thinks I'll actually get this thing before the new year? I'd be willing to bet Dell has over 100 on backorder already. Maybe $1000! Oh well, I know it's really easy to cancel orders before they ship anyway.

Lol, that makes 5 orders for a video card so far, and 0 shipped.

curtisfong · Post by **curtisfong** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:13 pm

Dell won't screw you like other online retailers. But they have tons and tons of orders for this particular card, and ship date will most likely be the 10th (what was stated for this card), and not sooner (dell usually is very conservative with ship dates).

Don't forget to order the ac1 from svc.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:21 pm

curtisfong wrote:http://accessories.us.Dell.com/sna/prod ... lid=566643

According to anandtech the 8800GT has better performance per watt, slightly higher image quality, and would definitely be the better choice if you game. Both cards have UVD (GT lacks vc1 but this probably will not matter much since vc1 doesn't load the cpu much).

Disadvantages of the 8800GT would be higher idle power consumption (~40w), and a loud single slot cooler which you would have to tweak with rivatuner to run the fan faster as temps increase (while gaming). This of course will add more noise.

But for $207 + the cost of an AC1 at SVC I think it is the better choice (and this is what I just purchased), especially since the new GTS will probably be at least $300, if not much more due to supply / demand.

anandtech's results are unlike any of the other trusted websites. that place is bought like a street hooker at the end of the night.

Lookup 3870 and you will see photo's of its slightly better image quality over 8800gt.

Also, the % cpu utilization is noticably lower on web benches for 3800 series over 8800GT with equal or greater "image quality" at 1080p (some say its unoticable so this probably doesnt matter)

i trust anandtech only half the time. Their results often even conflict with spcr reviews on thermals, sound levels, psu ratings and efficiency, really the list can go on and on sadly so.

thejamppa · Post by **thejamppa** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:23 am

I agree El Jefe. If you want some real valuation, cross reference some reliable pages like guru3d with others. I like Guru3D longtime expertise in 3D cards.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:35 am

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist but there has been a lot of misinformation and propaganda mostly favoring nVidia. But when it comes down to it, the 8800GT is most likely faster overall than the 3870, no matter how you slice it. The 8800GT from dell is probably the way to go, $220 shipped! MSI isn't maybe the best brand, but they have been around longer than xfx, bfg, and evga as far as I know. I bought an MSI motherboard like 8 years ago.

Fingers crossed that NCIX doesn't ship that 3870! I sent them a message but they claim they don't check those much.

Immediately after I sent them a message to cancel, they said they had shipped the card and provided a dead tracking number. This was at 5:30 their local time. They still have not charged my credit card, which is updated every 5 minutes.

Interesting what you said about Dell, my experience has been an annoying website and confusing phone system. The people at Dell wont even talk to you about product unless they know your name, phone number, and address as well.

Frys.com has at least 10 xfx 8800gt alpha dog editions with free company of heroes in stock, for 279.99. Tempting, but I'll pass.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:28 pm

Well, I expect to see my HIS ATI HD3870 tomorrow. I paid $232 including shipping. It came with 2 free games, call of Juarez and Black Box. Normally, I would consider this a good value, and happily use this card. Saving 20W at idle, plus being 4x quieter at full load is a very good thing. However...

I also am on the list for an MSI 8800GT from Dell, $220 shipped. This card is probably 5-25% faster, and also cheaper at the same time. Downside is the stock cooler is louder and exhausts inside the case, and it will take about 2 more weeks before I have it.

The question is, how much can I get for the 3870 on E-bay?? Lol. I'm almost tempted to keep them both, but I shouldn't, that is too much money. Also, I know plenty of people would be interested in buying either one should I need to get rid of them.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:08 pm

Wow, I am glad I jumped on the 3870 at Newegg the day it was released for the low price of $217. This thing flies, and is fairly quiet (best stock cooling i've ever had on a powerful card). I wouldn't say it is quiet enough to leave on 24/7, and it is the loudest thing in my gaming machine which includes an AC alpine 7, hard mounted Raptor, and Seasonic PSU, but is is still quiet enough that it does not bother me enough that I need to buy a new $50 cooler for it. I have a higher noise tolerance than many veterans around here though. If it is in my office, I can deal with some broadband woosh.

_MarcoM_ · Post by **_MarcoM_** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:50 am

autoboy wrote:Wow, I am glad I jumped on the 3870 at Newegg the day it was released for the low price of $217. This thing flies, and is fairly quiet (best stock cooling i've ever had on a powerful card). I wouldn't say it is quiet enough to leave on 24/7, and it is the loudest thing in my gaming machine which includes an AC alpine 7, hard mounted Raptor, and Seasonic PSU, but is is still quiet enough that it does not bother me enough that I need to buy a new $50 cooler for it. I have a higher noise tolerance than many veterans around here though. If it is in my office, I can deal with some broadband woosh.

Any chance to lower the fan rpm via drivers?

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:52 am

With the stock cooler I believe it is running on the ragged edge of temps, so it is unwise to lower the speeds too much. I do believe it is possible though. Your best bet would be to go aftermarket if you want to cool things down, I think.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:02 am

from everything ive seen, i really like the 8800gt over the 3870.

Lower max power consumption, single slot cooling, higher framerates, and lets not forget that nvidia drivers are second to none. People say the 3870 has a lower idle power consumption, but the difference is minimal at best. Its like a 10-15w difference at idle, but at load the 8800gt is around 40w less.

Granted a system thats on 24/7 is at idle more than load, but the lower your load power consumption, the slower your fans can run, the less likely your PSU fan will ramp up. All in all it means a quieter system, or an easier to cool quietly system.

Stock coolers are crap on any video card. I really do not even look at stock coolers when im trying to choose what video card to buy. I prefer if they are single slot, not because a stock single slot cooler is quieter because they usually are louder. But a stock single slot cooler tells me that the heat production is low enough to allow a stock single slot cooler design, A good thing. If the stock cooler really bothers you then replace it with one of the numerous well constructed aftermarket vga coolers on the market right now. I have heard that the 8800gt stock cooler is quieter than an 8800gtx, and i've heard an 8800gtx. Its not "quiet" per say, but its no where near what i would call loud. I was actually quite impressed with the one i heard.

The only thing i see keeping the 8800gt from sitting untouched on its thrown is availability and subsequent price gouging. Nvidia has said this should be a $250 price point card, with prices slowly falling towards the $200 price point, at which time they plan to release a $150-175 price point 8800gt with 256mb of ram. This wont be a problem for long though. Soon as the christmas season is over i bet prices come down and availability no longer an issue.

Vicotnik · Post by **Vicotnik** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:51 am

Aris wrote:Granted a system thats on 24/7 is at idle more than load, but the lower your load power consumption, the slower your fans can run, the less likely your PSU fan will ramp up. All in all it means a quieter system, or an easier to cool quietly system.

Low idle power consumption is for me so much more important than load power consumption. As long as I am able to cool the card with a passive cooler the power consumption at load doesn't matter at all really.

All my three fans (2 x Nexus 120mm and the fan in my S12 430W) in my system are temperature controlled, and if the box is kind of loud while gaming who gives a fcuk..

I have my headphones on.

What I want is the system to be quiet when I download stuff at night or when I'm just surfing the net and checking email. It is also much easier to leave the system on over night to download something when I know that as little power as possible is burnt away for no reason at all.

djkest · Post by **djkest** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:04 am

I've read at least 5 reviews comparing the 3870 to the 8800gt and they all have the power consumption having the 3870 being 0-5W higher at peak load, and 20W less at idle. I'm not sure what review you looked at but it is not consistent with other people's findings.

edit: oh, right. You read tom's hardware. No wonder you're coming up w/ numbers like that.

Here's four examples, and I could probably find more.
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.h ... VzaWFzdA==
http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/1222/1 ... index.html
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3151&p=11
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/amd ... page16.asp

_MarcoM_ · Post by **_MarcoM_** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:31 am

djkest wrote:I've read at least 5 reviews comparing the 3870 to the 8800gt and they all have the power consumption having the 3870 being 0-5W higher at peak load, and 20W less at idle. I'm not sure what review you looked at but it is not consistent with other people's findings.

True, radeon 38x0 is generally more power conservative than 8800 series.

edit: oh, right. You read tom's hardware. No wonder you're coming up w/ numbers like that.

ROTFL!

New card for the holidays- which one?

New card for the holidays- which one?

MSI 8800GT @ dell $207 + tax

Re: MSI 8800GT @ dell $207 + tax

tests were with 169.04 drivers (outdated)

dec 13 maybe?

Re: MSI 8800GT @ dell $207 + tax