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 Post subject: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:46 am 
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sapphire site doesn't have it yet in their presented product collection.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentatio ... id=1&leg=0

here it says that "they will launch it little later this year".
http://www.techpowerup.com/167340/Sapph ... -Card.html

another question. what do you think about one of the comments in the second link above :
"Aim a 120mm fan at that and you have the best cooled 7770" .
do you think that 120mm fan will be close to passive fanless? silence wise.


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 Post subject: Re: doe's the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:52 am 
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nimo11 wrote:
do you think that 120mm fan will be close to passive fanless? silence wise.


That depends upon the baseline noise in the rest of the system. I find it hard to believe a high powered graphics card will not make electronic buzz of its own along with other system components. You could have the 120mm fan running very slowly, perhaps as low as 300rpm. This would be quieter than any electrical buzz and be far better for cooling that fully passive.

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 Post subject: Re: doe's the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:22 am 
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the rest of my system is very quiet .
i believe that you get most of those "electronic buzz" when the card is on load ,isn't it?
since more then half of the time this system is not on gaming, it's important to me to know how is it on idle, considering that rest of the system it very, very quiet.
can you put this size of fan on any card (lets say I'm talking on the gtx650, hd 7770, hd 7750).
and how it'll be compare to the build in fan? lets say if it comes with a 80 mm fan.
and usually can you control the speed of all of those, or you'll have to add an after market controller?

sorry of those many question. i don't have much experience with this, since my current system have an graphic chip came with the cpu.
and, as you can see, silent system is very important to me .


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Buzz increases as power draw increases so yes, it will be louder on load. That said it doesn't draw a lot of power and it doesn't sound like you'll be putting it on load often, so it probably won't be an issue.

You can put any fan on any card, provided it will fit in the space you have.

If it is a reference card it will probably perform better (ie be quieter) than the included fan.
If it is a non-reference it depends, the included aftermarket cooling may be best in terms of noise to temperature - but, generally speaking, the larger the fan is the more air it will push at lower speeds (and therefore while making less noise).
In either case you will probably have to remove the card's shroud and find a way to install the fan onto it (most people use zip-ties).

Fans that come with GPUs and fans you install yourself can both be controlled without a hardware controller by software. MSI Afterburner seems to be the choice if you're using a fan connected to the GPU (which would require purchasing a special PWM cable if you're using your own fan), SpeedFan if you're going to connect the fan to your motherboard.

I think you're probably worrying too much. If all you're doing is playing The Sims you will be fine with a passive GPU. Honestly I'm surprised you're not fine with the integrated GPU - you'll have better options if you wait until your daughter starts playing more demanding games.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:13 am 
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thank you for your reply.
i agree with you that In principle I'll be fine with a passive gpu.
it is also after i checked my current temperatures and they are relatively low.
actually i was planning to buy the sapphire ultimate hd 7750 , but since i have a huge cooler on my cpu there is no place to connect it to the pcie x16 slot.
that is one of the reasons i asked about the passive 7770 (which btw I'm not sure that i won't have with it the same problem as with the 7750).

regarding your comment about the sims game and my integrated gpu, i thought the same and even started to look for a cheaper passive gpu, or wait a bit . but then i found out that my current gpu, and a lot of low end gpu's doesn't meet the minimum requirements for a game like the (part of the expansions) sims 3, since , to my surprise, they asks for 128 mb memory bus.( mine, and lot of others are 64 mb).

add to this that in my country they don't have all the Selection like say in the u.s, especially for the passive cards, so due to those limitations I've started to think about a non passive card . that's why I'm asking about fan's etc.

btw, what is a reference/non-reference card?
actuality i didn't understand this sentence:
"If it is a reference card it will probably perform better (ie be quieter) than the included fan.
If it is a non-reference it depends, the included aftermarket cooling may be best in terms of noise to temperature"


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:49 pm 
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I think you're confusing "memory bus" with VRAM, the actual memory the card needs (128-bit vs 128MB). According to the Sims 3 - Seasons expansion pack requirements you only need 128MB of VRAM, or video RAM. Given that the recommended cards for the Sims 3 includes really, really old cards like the GT210 and Intel's old GMA lines I think it's highly unlikely that your integrated GPU couldn't handle it (or a really low end passive card). Integrated graphics cards share their "VRAM" with the system RAM, so if you have 2GB or more your integrated graphics should have plenty of memory available to it. I would save yourself some money now and upgrade later when better options are available or you actually need to - The Sims would require a dramatic overhaul in the next game before it requires the power of a GT 220, nevermind a HD 7750.

What CPU do you have again? Chances are it can handle light gaming like The Sims if it's a Core 2 Duo or better. If things are getting sluggish you probably just need more system RAM.

A reference card is a card that is based on the "reference" design that Nvidia or AMD puts out. A non-reference design is a custom design, usually in the manner of a custom heatsink and fan solution - a passive 7750 would be an example of this.
Here is a reference 7750 - typically has a louder fan, lower quality PCB, lower quality heatsinks, et cetera. It is the working "reference" or the standard design produced by AMD that other manufacturers work with and hope to enhance. With older and lower end cards like the 7750 you'll pretty much only see reference designs coming in OEM forms - direct from the manufacturer or if you were to buy a PC from HP or Dell with a 7750 installed.
This, this, and this are non-reference 7750's - better fans, better heatsinks, better/more VRMs, so on.

P.S. To answer the original question from your previous thread, in my experience if your CPU is running at reasonably low temperatures you will be safe with a passive GPU, just be sure to stress test it and if it stays below 85C or so you should be fine, at least by SPCR standards. :)

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:58 am 
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first, really thank you for your help.
i understand now the difference between reference/non reference card.
i agree with you that i can probably use safely a passive gpu. my current temperatures doesn't exceed 32c.

about the ram needed , first i didn't know this:
"Integrated graphics cards share their "VRAM" with the system RAM"

but when i checked here
http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/CY ... /11476?p=a
for the sims 3 seasons i got this:
Required Dedicated Video RAM 128 MB
You Have 64 MB

but maybe again I'm confusing things here and I'll be glad if you'll clarify them.

my CPU is I3 530 2.93 GHz 4mb.
and my system total ram is 4 GB.

as for the practical decision (which fits also your suggestion) i think I'll wait a bit with the gpu and see how things will develop, also with the cards Supply in my country.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Edit: Woops double post

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Last edited by claes on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:10 pm 
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Ah, you should be okay with your integrated GPU, at least for The Sims and similar games.

If you review that site you'll notice that it recommends the Intel GMA-3 and GMA-4 series of integrated GPUs. Your CPU actually has a newer version of Intel's line, the Intel HD, which you can compare to the older versions here and read more about here.

AFAIK all Intel integrated graphics solutions are read by the system as having 64MB available, but that is actually the minimum amount available. The actual amount varies dynamically based on the load of the iGPU (integrated GPU), a technology Intel calls Dynamic Video Memory Technology, and can actually be as high as 1.7GB on Windows Vista and Windows 7 in the case of your CPU/iGPU. Here is Intel's article about graphics memory, Good luck! :)

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:45 am 
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wow, amazing ! didn't know all that. thank you.
now i understand why we can actually play sims3 seasons although that site- " can you play it" , says we can not.
still have one game ( ratatouille) we can't play.
asked THQ support and they say that the minimum gpu requirements are geforce 3 or ati 7500. but we can live with that until it'll come to upgrade the gpu.
thanks again for everything.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:44 am 
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I would generally avoid the suggestions made by "requirements test" sites, particularly with your iGPU as it won't be read properly by the website. The best way to test is to install and try it out :)

Your iGPU meets all of the minimum requirements for Ratatouille as far as I can tell. It supports DirectX 9.0c and has more than 64MB memory available.

While I would generally highly discourage using Tom's Hardware as a resource for anything, if you look to their Graphics Heirarchy Chart you'll notice that your Intel HD graphics (i3 5x0) is on par with GPUs that meet and/or exceed the game's minimum requirements (Radeon 9600 Pro, GeForce 4 Ti 4800, etc.). So, it should work out for you, just give it a shot!

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:55 pm 
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yes, i see. you are absolutely right.
it seems that THQ miss leaded me by saying my card isn't enough for that game.
I'll try again and in case it wouldn't work I'll show them that info.
thanks again for you help.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:33 am 
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nimo11 wrote:
it seems that THQ miss leaded me by saying my card isn't enough for that game.

They're not misleading you. They don't HAVE to support any hardware in particular especially hardware released after a game is launched (which yours is, look at all the cards listed, they're a few years old). It's pretty common for hardware which might work to not be covered and other hardware which is almost unplayably slow to be listed.

It does list older Intel GMA chips as being supported so you might think it should work but don't expect the publisher to add your graphics chipset to the supported list just because you can get it working.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:00 am 
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i agree Basically with what you are saying , but i would not let THQ go so easily with it.
i didn't plan to open it here, but maybe it'll help a bit to improve their service for other costumers.
first, as far as i know, the are the largest support address for most of those games (which be bought with our fine money...).
it took them a long, long time to answer to my official request for support( which .
i sent to them several times).
then they ask me to send them (and direct me how to do it) two files (MSinfo and Dxdiag) with a very specified details about every hardware, including software like os etc. in my system.
so who else but they should know to solve those problems? i would expect at list that they'll check those things that you did and found.

this is their Diagnosis:

"The error message that you get indicated that there is something going on with your graphics card. Please check if there is new drivers for your Intel chip.

Keep in mind that the game needs a minimum power of nVidia GeForce 3 or ATi 7500 class Video Card and your system has a Integrated Intel Chipset: This might not be compatible with this game.

Also the game is 5 years old so it might be possible that it does not perform well with Windows 7.

For this reason, I suggest that you run the game in compatibility mode for Windows XP SP3.

I am afraid that there is no much that I can suggest in order to get your game running as your system does not meet the minimum requirements in terms of graphics."


after that i updated for the latest driver, tried on XP ( i have a parallel xp os on my pc), nothing helped.

sorry i bothered you with all that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:59 am 
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nimo11 wrote:
first, as far as i know, the are the largest support address for most of those games (which be bought with our fine money...).
it took them a long, long time to answer to my official request for support


It's an old game and given that your graphics chipset is not listed on the supported chipsets, they don't have to support you. It is nice that they look into it at all for you but even though you spent money on it, they don't have to support it given that your chipset is not listed as supported. There is a level of 'caveat emptor' here. If the game does not work on your specific configuration, you can't do anything about it and you would struggle to get a refund from a retailer given that your chipset is not listed as supported - many retailers will only refund for faulty discs as they are exempted from many controls.

Minimum requirements != recommended requirements != supported hardware. A piece of superceding hardware will not always play an older game in the same way as an older hardware. Try playing anything DirectX 5 on a modern system without hacks and your chance of success is slim.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:13 am 
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I'm not quiet agree with this attitude.
if it's so, i would expect them to write something about this policy on the game cover, like : "our support for the game is limited to.... ".
it would be better then give me kind of a wrong unswer.
but i already left it behind and everything is o.k 8)


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:18 am 
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nimo11 wrote:
if it's so, i would expect them to write something about this policy on the game cover, like : "our support for the game is limited to.... ".

They already do:
Quote:
Windows Supported Video Cards
NVIDIA GeForce series
FX 5900, FX 5950
6200, 6500, 6600, 6800
7200, 7300, 7600, 7800, 7900, 7950
8400, 8500, 8600, 8800
9300, 9400, 9500, 9600, 9800
G100, GT 120, GT 130, GTS 150
GTS 250, GTX 260, GTX 280, GTX 285, GTX 295

ATI Radeon™ series
9500, 9600, 9800
X300, X600, X700, X800, X850
X1300, X1600, X1800, X1900, X1950
2400, 2600, 2900
3450, 3650, 3850, 3870
4850, 4870

Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator (GMA)
GMA 3-Series, GMA 4-Series


nimo11 wrote:
it would be better then give me kind of a wrong unswer.

When have they given you a wrong answer? If they had told you that your chipset was supported and then it didn't work, yes, they would have misled you but they have certainly not misled you by not supporting a chipset which is not listed as supported.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:38 am 
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I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
as far as i understand, if the minimum requirements are for a lower graphic card then mine, the game sould work with a higher one. and as i already said, i tried it as well on XP os, so what else do you think stopping the game from working?
and their answer was :
"Keep in mind that the game needs a minimum power of nVidia GeForce 3 or ATi 7500 class Video Card and your system has a Integrated Intel Chipset".
i don't think it's an accurate answer and surely not the one that you're suggesting.
not talking about the long time until they answer me at all.
but it can be that I'm looking at it in a wrong way.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:30 am 
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nimo11 wrote:
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
as far as i understand, if the minimum requirements are for a lower graphic card then mine, the game sould work with a higher one.

It does not say minimum requirements for graphics card on the box. As I stated, it lists the supported chipsets. Is your chipset on the supported chipsets? No. As I Stated before, supported hardware is not the same as minimum requirements. Whether or not it supercedes it or not, it is not supported so they do not have to help you.

As for why it fails, you haven't actually shown here any error message or anything from what happens when you try to run the game. I see before you say that it is because it only detects 64Mb video RAM. Does it give this in an error message?

Bear in mind that as mentioned before by a previous poster in this thread the Intel iGPU chipsets dynamically resize the video RAM from 64Mb upwards. THQ may have added a video memory check to their software which does not work with this technology correctly. As you are using a non-supported chipset you have to expect that newer features might cause compatibility problems and this is one of them. You may be able to change the video memory settings in the BIOS to deal with this problem by increasing the minimum amount from 64Mb.

nimo11 wrote:
and their answer was :
"Keep in mind that the game needs a minimum power of nVidia GeForce 3 or ATi 7500 class Video Card and your system has a Integrated Intel Chipset".
i don't think it's an accurate answer and surely not the one that you're suggesting.

You've got through to a support person who does not have a huge amount that they can do. They will have an FAQ they work through and perhaps from the information you sent them they will have picked up what hardware you have but they are in no position of authority to change their companies official line on what is supported or not.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:43 am 
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i sent them the exact error massage i got when i tried to start the game.
i still think differently then you, at list about part of the subjects here, but please let's live that subject since it doesn't lead to anything.
anyway, thank you for your attention.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:46 pm 
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I asked Sapphire about their passively cooled 7770 that they announced seven months ago. Sapphire's response:

USA channel will not be bringing in the Ultimate edition of the HD7770.

Tech

Technical Support
Althon Micro/Sapphire Technology
280 S. Paseo Tesoro
Walnut CA 91789
Fax: 909-594-9771


I ask if it will be released in any market... Japan, Europe, China?

As far as I know Europe has it.

Tech

Technical Support
Althon Micro/Sapphire Technology
280 S. Paseo Tesoro
Walnut CA 91789
Fax: 909-594-9771

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:22 am 
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thank you for this info.
it is helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:04 am 
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This evening, Sapphire of Taiwan provided the most reliable response on the status of the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate:

Dear Sir :
Sorry that we only had sample for the show but never production the heatsink version of the HD7770.

If you can consider about the passive version of the HD7750 , we did launch this model to the market which you can refer to this page –
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentatio ... id=1&leg=0

Thanks.
John Chu
Customer Service & Technical Support


Next I proposed to purchase their passively cooled 7770 engineering sample(s) for 500% above distirbutor cost per unit.

Dear Sir :
After checking with related department , we are not selling the engineering samples.
But we will continue the development of the passively cooled products.

Thanks.
John Chu
Customer Service & Technical Support


Apparently, the 7750 remains the best passive video card solution on the market. I had already purchased it and was hoping to upgrade to the 7770 for my new build that is under construction:
Image

The GTX 650 is allegedly only 64W TDP and manufacturers could easily produce a passively cooled GTX 650, but I've heard that NVidia doesn't like it when their GPUs are under clocked. That and the passively cooled video card market is a small one (which is probably why the 7770 Ultimate was never produced). Oh well, that just gives NVidia’s consumers another reason to choose AMD/ATI over NVidia’s products.

There's even a passive GTX 680 that was designed and produced, albeit in sample quantities only. Too bad though, it will likely share the same fate as Sapphire's 7770 Ultimate and remain vaporware:
http://hexus.net/tech/news/graphics/415 ... e-gtx-680/

It's easy to assume that Colorful's executives decided that $700 for a single GPU video card was too high for the niche silent computing market to support. Sadly, most people that build silent computers do so for their HTPC, and I'm rather confident that close to 0% of the HTPC builders/owners have considered the GTX 680 for their video card solution. With that said, close to 100% of consumers that would purchase a GTX 680 would have fans present in their computer case, or at the very least on their water coolant radiators, and so they couldn't justify paying more for a fanless video card that would run hotter than one with fans.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:01 am 
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this info is very helpful as i see there is no point to wait for some of the products.
you are so right about the 680.
i would gladly go for a passive gtx 650, since it is a decent card ,at list for me, and i have some location problem with the passive 7550.
as far as i know, the gtx 650 i smaller size then the 7550.
i wonder if there is a way to estimate the level of noise i would get from a card with a fan , for example like the gtx650( i mean not getting info about db level, but hearing it in real life). i can of course take a risk and buy it to try, but in my country it is less common to ask the dealer to change you the card after trying it.


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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:32 pm
Posts: 36
Location: Memphis, TN
nimo11 wrote:
this info is very helpful as i see there is no point to wait for some of the products.
you are so right about the 680.
i would gladly go for a passive gtx 650, since it is a decent card ,at list for me, and i have some location problem with the passive 7550.
as far as i know, the gtx 650 i smaller size then the 7550.
i wonder if there is a way to estimate the level of noise i would get from a card with a fan , for example like the gtx650( i mean not getting info about db level, but hearing it in real life). i can of course take a risk and buy it to try, but in my country it is less common to ask the dealer to change you the card after trying it.

I can tell you from experience that fan noise can significantly vary among new fans of the exact same make and model. All it takes is one fan being perfectly level with fluid motion in one video card and another being slightly off kilter in the other (a manufacturing inconsistency), and at 500 RPMs or higher you will audibly notice the difference. With that said, a GTX 680 with multiple high quality fans can be quieter than a GT 610 with one cheapy fan. Conversely, that quiet GTX 680 can transform over time from whisper quiet into weed eater loud as dust (and often bugs) coalesces within the fan/motor/gears, wear takes its inevitable toll on bearings, and/or the fan blades that were once level are simply no longer level after hundreds of millions of rotations.

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 Post subject: Re: [Is] the Sapphire HD 7770 Ultimate already on market ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:58 am
Posts: 70
Location: green
NeoGeo wrote:
nimo11 wrote:
this info is very helpful as i see there is no point to wait for some of the products.
you are so right about the 680.
i would gladly go for a passive gtx 650, since it is a decent card ,at list for me, and i have some location problem with the passive 7550.
as far as i know, the gtx 650 i smaller size then the 7550.
i wonder if there is a way to estimate the level of noise i would get from a card with a fan , for example like the gtx650( i mean not getting info about db level, but hearing it in real life). i can of course take a risk and buy it to try, but in my country it is less common to ask the dealer to change you the card after trying it.

I can tell you from experience that fan noise can significantly vary among new fans of the exact same make and model. All it takes is one fan being perfectly level with fluid motion in one video card and another being slightly off kilter in the other (a manufacturing inconsistency), and at 500 RPMs or higher you will audibly notice the difference. With that said, a GTX 680 with multiple high quality fans can be quieter than a GT 610 with one cheapy fan. Conversely, that quiet GTX 680 can transform over time from whisper quiet into weed eater loud as dust (and often bugs) coalesces within the fan/motor/gears, wear takes its inevitable toll on bearings, and/or the fan blades that were once level are simply no longer level after hundreds of millions of rotations.


this is another major argument for me to do all i can to work with a passive one.


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