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 Post subject: Do you like small ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Posts: 395
Location: London
I like small because I'm a minimalist.

My current PC is a mATX in a Silverstone SG01.


And now I have just figured that there's a smaller formfactor called: Mini ITX.
My plan is to carefully select the components and build one within the next 1 or 2 months.
It doesn't have to be a monster like my previous one, but it should be able to take my E8400 Wolfdale.

I would be very grateful if you could comment on my following findings please.


1. The PC case

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A little video clip of this case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fsMmXp7boM


2. The Motherboard

Full sized ATX = 305 x 244 mm
Micro ATX = 244 x 244 mm
Mini ITX = 170 x 170 mm
Nano ITX = 120 x 120 mm
Pico ITX = 100 x 72 mm

Intel DG45FC

http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Motherboards/DG45FC/DG45FC-overview.htm



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3. The HDD (SSD)

I would love to have this one, but it's not out yet ...

Image

http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=4478

•Affordable Third-Generation SSDs Based on Multi-Level Cell (MLC) Flash Technology, Equivalent to a 40,000 rpm Hard Disk Drive (HDD).
•The G3 SSDs are more than five times faster than the fastest 7,200 RPM HDDs and more than twice as fast as SSDs shipping in 2008.
•The G3 SSDs provide a Longterm Data Endurance (LDE) ... sufficient for over 100 years of typical user usage.
•An SSD upgrade improves the user experience like nothing else you can do to a computer.

For the time being I'd get the WD10EADS or WD10EACS.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=559
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=336


The RAM and the PSU.

http://www.geil.com.tw/products/list/id/28
http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?pno=st50ef-plus-sc&area=usa


Comment away ...


Last edited by Cov on Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:13 pm 
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Location: Foster City, CA
I'm eyeing this case also for a WHS build.

Waiting for the case as well and see if any mods can be made to take on more HDs. A simple SFX (to ATX mount) PSU bracket would probably free up more room as well. Or can you already mount an SFX PSu in that case?

More pics when you get going!

Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Image

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 1:19 am
Posts: 488
Location: Australia
i love small!

i have to take points off for lian lis lazy 'passively cooled' approach though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Regarding the Mini ITX motherboard ...

Animated demo: http://support.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboard/demo/demo.htm?module=media_series_dg45fc

Supported CPUs: http://processormatch.intel.com/CompDB/SearchResult.aspx?BoardName=DG45FC

Using a Wolfdale is ok, but this board even supports the Yorkfields!
Only downside with the quads, it would have to be one of the 65W ("S") versions which are quite a bit more expensive than the 95W ones.

Reviews

http://www.trustedreviews.com/motherboards/review/2008/09/17/Intel-DG45FC/p1

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article869-page2.html

http://www.minitechnet.de/intel_dg45fc_2.html (german language)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:05 am
Posts: 154
Location: Germany
I like small! Really small, that is. :) Mini-ITX is nice but I'd love to get even smaller. I've always loved small high-tech things since I was a kid though so it shows.

That board has been discussed on SPCR here and here.

As for the quads, I'm pretty sure the board also works with the 95W ones (IIRC I've read one report of someone using a Q9300, don't remember where) and with a little undervolting, results comparable to the 65W quads should be achievable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Posts: 395
Location: London
lowpowercomputing wrote:
I like small! Really small, that is. :)

Nice to meet like minded people on here ... :) !

Quote:
That board has been discussed on SPCR here and here.

Cheers mate.

Quote:
... As for the quads, I'm pretty sure the board also works with the 95W ones ... and with a little undervolting, results comparable to the 65W quads should be achievable.

Awesome !!


Quote:
... If you really like small this casemight be worth a look as well ...


It's got something ...

Image

Image


Quote:
... The Lian Li measures 193mm x 280mm x 208mm. The Shuttle G2 chassis measures 300 x 200 x 185 mm. The Shuttle H7 measures 310(L) x 200(W) x 185(H) mm ...


My Silverstone SG01 of course is bigger but actually tower styles are my favourites.
Nothing against Shuttle, but this time it has to be a Mini ITX tower.


Quote:
For the motherboard I would go for this then you can still use a PCI-E graphics card if you like.


Quote:
I was just going to say the nvidia 9 series would be better than a g45


Nice one, I was hoping for input like this one.
See, I never looked for ITX form factor before.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=17268&vpr=yes


You know what is funny ?
I was always annoyed that motherboards still came with historic floppy & PS/2 sockets, too many extension slots and didn't follow our gadgets getting smaller and smaller anyway.
Thought step-by-step we might get there and suddenly, BOOOM ... I discovered Mini ITX !

Mini ITX comes much, much closer to what I always had in mind ... can't wait to start my new little Monster rig :)

Quote:
... apart from the e8400/ a ssd slotting in do you have any other
requirements?


Hmmm, nope ... oh, hang on, I wished I could use 8 GB RAM instead of 4.
But that might be one of the sacrifices for getting smaller.


Quote:
I assume you have heard of pico-ITX? ...


You asume right, but ... how about the preformance difference between Mini- and Pico-ITX ?
Does Pico still come with Socket 775 ?

Initial searches didn't bring much in regards to Pico-ITX PC cases.

Image

Image

It's getting better and better ...
How very funny do the massive PC cases look like compared to these models ? Hahaha


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 Post subject: "Coffee Cup" Computer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:18 am
Posts: 39
Location: Tucson Arizona
Cov,
That is a small computer. What is it? More details, please.

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 Post subject: Re: "Coffee Cup" Computer?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:31 pm 
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Posts: 395
Location: London
treker wrote:
... What is it? More details, please.

I'm not sure which one you mean.
The Mini ITX ot the Pico ITX one ?

I personally am interested in building a Mini ITX PC but still in the process of researching of what components are the best.
The Lian Li PC case for example is not out to buy yet, it will be out in the next 1 or 2 months I guess.

Will keep this thread updated.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:05 am
Posts: 154
Location: Germany
As you have seen, the GeForce 9300 is a better choice than the G45 in terms of gaming performance (assuming this is important to you and you don't want to install a discrete graphics card).

As for the small PC, I would be interested in the one next to the cup. What's it? Looks a bit like an eBox.

I haven't seen any S775 nano/-pico-ITX boards, just VIA ones with C3/C7 CPUs so far. However, they're still much more expensive than mini-ITX and, unless you can find one with a S775, not really what you're after since the VIA CPUs are quite slow. So if you want something like a desktop PC, just smaller, mini-ITX is probably the smallest form factor you should go for unless you have specific needs and are sure the platform chosen meets them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:35 pm
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Location: Greece
Some interesting links here.

Perhaps you have seen some of those custom mini pc`s by a fellow spcr member: http://slipperyskip.com/page23.html

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My PCs: Workstation : HTPC in a CD player case : Custom Mini ITX projects


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
lowpowercomputing wrote:
As you have seen, the GeForce 9300 is a better choice than the G45 in terms of gaming performance ...

You're absolutely right.
The G45 board looks neat & and modern, and is available everywhere.
Considering the performance difference, the GeForce 9300 is multiple times faster.
Only downside, I haven't found any retailer yet who offers it.

Quote:
... As for the small PC, I would be interested in the one next to the cup. What's it? Looks a bit like an eBox.


Look here: http://www.picopc.co.uk/oldsite/?page=products&range=picoPC&products=overview


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
I was worried because of finding a CPU cooler which fits on one of these Mini ITX motherboards, is rather difficult.

Image

There is hardly any space around the CPU socket.


Was thinking of using a VGA cooler instead, but now I've tried something else ...

I just disconnected my CPU fan cable from the mATX motherboard and monitored the temperatures for a while.

After 30 minutes the CPU temperature did not get any higher than 36/37 degrees (from 32/33 degrees before while being cooled completely passively !!

I think that's pretty remarkable.

The E8400 is the best CPU I ever had !!

I'm planning now to get a Yorkfield Q9550 for my Micro ATX and re-employ my Wolfdale in a Mini ITX system.

Does anyone know how many degrees these 45 nm CPUs can take before it's getting critical ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:05 am
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Did you check the temps when the CPU was under heavy load and ran passively? Idle temps won't tell anything about the possibility to run passively (that being said, it is possible to run an E8400 passively). When you use a small and crowded case (as you plan to) it's even harder. E.g. my Athlon LE-1640 has no problems idling passively for hours but if I run Prime95 it gets critically hot after just a couple of minutes. That is with an open ATX tower.

SPCR used an Arctic Cooling Alpine 7 Pro with the DG45FC so no problems fitting that one on the motherboard.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Hi lowpowercomputing and sorry for the late response.

No I didn't check the CPU under full load yet, but will do soon.
Will be interesting to see the CPU temperature development under 100% load.
At how many degrees would I have to start to worry I wonder ?

65 ?
70 ?
75 ?
80 ?
85 ?

So, the Artic cooler Alpine 7 does fit on the DG45FC ?

Image

That reminds me very much on the Intel stock cooler

Image

I'm thinking of getting the Cooler Master ICT-D925R-GP but as it measures 95mm instead of 90 mm like Intel's stock cooler, it might fit but then again it might not.



Image

Image

Image

Image

Edit: Just to say that I got this CoolerMaster CPU cooler and noticed that it's rather noisy.
If you like the shape / size of the heatsink, you could use a different fan (I did) but otherwise I cannot recommend this cooler, sorry.


Last edited by Cov on Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Image

That's the Zotac GeForce 6300 ITX WiFi motherboard with Intel's stock cooler ...

Image

The diameter is 90 mm.

Image

By the way, the push-pin-solution like with this cooler is not very good as it forces the motherboard to bend.

Image

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:32 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Update

I have written to Zotac and they replied that the distribution of this Mini ITX motherboard will start in April/May 09 as "the support is not setup yet".

And regarding the PC case Q07, Lian Li have given the release date as from April/May as well.

Something else regarding the mainboard.
The specification say that the most you can have is 8 GB of RAM, but it seems very hard to get any 4 GB modules.

Have found OCZ DDR2 PC2-6400 "P45 Special" Vista Upgrade 8GB Edition ...

Image

http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_ddr2_pc2_6400-p45_special-vista_upgrade_8gb_edition

... but it says in the small print that these modules are currently only guaranteed to work with P43 and P45 chipset.
That sucks of course.

Having said that, my plan is to order these very modules and see if it works because I cannot imagine Zotak declaring this board as fit to work with 8 GB and it doesn't.
It wouldn't make sense to me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:37 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
Nice pictures of a Mini ITX system here ...

https://www.mowersclan.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=6939

Parts list:

Motherboard: Zotac 9300 ITX WiFi
CPU: Intel E4500 (2.2 GHz)
CPU cooler: Silverstone NT07 Heatsink (low profile)
RAM: Patriot DDR2 2 GB
VGA: 8800GT Nvidia Reference Card
Optical drive: Samsung DVD-R
HDD: WD Raptor 74 GB
PC case: Apex MI 100

Apex ... http://www.apextechusa.com/products_cate.asp?cID=14


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Location: London
Have just received a response from Zotac whether their motherboard in question works together with OCZ DDR2 PC2-6400 "P45 Special" Vista Upgrade 8GB Edition:

Quote:
Dear Sir,

If you are going to install the maximum system memory (4GB module x 2), you may choose the module tested by us.
http://www.zotac.com/httpdocs/brochu...%20-%20ITX.txt

B.rgds
Peter Tang


GSKILL F2-6400CL6Q-16GBMQ (4GB) DDRII 800


Have checked the website ...

http://newgskill.web-bi.net/bbs/G_SKILL/

... but either I'm being thick or they're really hard to find ???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Location: London
I guess here they are ...

G.SKILL DDR2 PC2 6400 CL6 8GB/16GB kit

Image

Have found them to buy for Euro 204.30 = $ 263.39 = £ 187.81


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:18 pm 
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... and 2 x 4GB Kit OCZ XTC Vista Upgrade Edition 800MHz CL5 ...

Image

... for Euro 166.31 = $ 214.29 = £ 152.87


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
What's the chances of being able to fit a Thermalright HR-01 Plus on that Zotac board?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:38 pm 
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Surprisingly good would be my guess, if you're ok with such a sky scraper on a Mini ITX board though.
Meaning the motherboard would be attached to the CPU cooler, not the other way around.

Dimension: L110 x W60 x H159.5 (mm)

Image

Image


Image

The footprint of this cooler seems to fit within the clearance square, given by Intel to be reserved for the stock cooler.


What CPU are you planning to use for that ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:55 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
I know the HR-01 Plus will be massive overkill for the e5200-based system I'm contemplating. The other CPU cooler option I'm thinking of is a Ninja Mini, but in Australia, the HR-01 Plus is cheaper than the Ninja Mini at the place I can buy them.

I'm planning a very low wattage very quiet Internet surfing/torrent box with a PW-200-W I have lying around and a SSD. I'm thinking of building a DIY clear perspex and wood case, as small as I can get away with, with a very low voltage exhaust fan only. I hope to get a decent passive cooler to go with this Zotac mobo and undervolt the CPU a little bit. My aim is to fit the whole system in a small as space as possible, hence why I'm curious about this mini-ITX board. I reckon I could get a basic system in 20cm x 20cm x 20cm based around this Zotac board. Otherwise, I will go with a Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L mATX board (actual size 24.4cm x 19.4cm) and aim for 20cm x 25cm x 20cm. (If I go with the Ninja Mini, I could have a enclosure of 12 - 16cm high though... hmmm. I'm fairly sure the Ninja Mini would be adequate for an undervolted e5200. Decisions, decisions. :lol:)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Location: Detroit, MI
JamieG wrote:
I'm planning a very low wattage very quiet Internet surfing/torrent box with a PW-200-W I have lying around and a SSD. ...... Otherwise, I will go with a Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L mATX board


Sadly, the PW-200 will not post on this board with a Dell DA-2 power adapter. You should look elsewhere (PicoPSU) for this application. However, if you do manage to get it working, let me know what +12v source you used ;)

Btw, torrentflux-b4rt on linux/bsd is just awesome. Be sure to use the transmission client (C-language) vs. the interpreted python one, saves CPU cycles and memory resources.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:39 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm half way through this build at the moment. Posting using it now in fact :)

I went with the Gigabyte GA-G31M-ES2L mATX board and E5200 combination, along with my PW-200V and 60W brick that the shop that sold me it sent me. Other components are a Samsung F1 1Tb HDD and Pioneer DVD-RW used for installing windows only and a 2Gb stick of Kingston HyperX DDR2-6400.

The E5200 varies from a 9x multiplier at the desktop (not 12.5x) for 1.8Ghz, with low power stepping down to 1.2Ghz, which seems to work fine for being within the 60W envelope of my brick, without me playing with the BIOS yet. Manufactuter of my brick is listed as Electricity Power Source (E.P.S) Inc - www.eps-biz.com.

Stock CPU cooler at approx 1000rpm gives me 44/52 on CPU cores at 1.8Ghz with 1.088V (I will have to play around in the BIOS at some stage...)

I'm still waiting to source a HR-01 Plus and a OCZ Vertex SSD to replace the Samsung as a boot disk though.

Apologies for the threat hijack!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:50 am 
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What Jamie, no Pictures ? And what case are you using ?
200W seems just about enough.
Have heard great things about the 1TB Samsung. It has only three platters.

Both of my DVD-RWs are from Pioneer as well.
Hasn't the E5200 got 2.5GHz by default ?
The Vertex is certainly a tasty little SSD. Have read much good about the Intel X-25 M as well.

Have read something very interesting about SSDs the other day.
Actually it's information everybody interested in SSDs should know about.
Hang on, will try to find the link.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:01 am 
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1. Intel X25-M SSD: Intel Delivers One of the World's Fastest Drives
September 8th, 2008

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3403&p=6


2. The SSD Anthology: Understanding SSDs
March 18th, 2009

Very important information about the major disadvantage of SSDs.
However, please bear in mind that the slowest SSD still performs better than the HDD counterpart.

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Cov wrote:
What Jamie, no Pictures ? And what case are you using ?
200W seems just about enough.
Have heard great things about the 1TB Samsung. It has only three platters.

Both of my DVD-RWs are from Pioneer as well.
Hasn't the E5200 got 2.5GHz by default ?
The Vertex is certainly a tasty little SSD. Have read much good about the Intel X-25 M as well.

Thanks for the links, I had read them before though.

Sorry, don't have a camera at the moment and the one on my mobile phone is really bad. I'm aiming to build my own case out of clear perspex (for the sides and top) with MDF for the base and rear and a mesh intake at the front. At the moment the system is just assembled with the motherboard sitting on some foam on my bookshelf. Still waiting on my HR-01 Plus to complete the build anyway.

Yeah, the E5200 is 2.5Ghz with the 12.5x multiplier. Using CPU-Z I haven't seen it get over 1.8Ghz at 9x multiplier (idling at 1.2 Ghz with 6x) and my system at POST specifies 1.8Ghz from memory (at work now). However, this suits me fine within my power budget.

The 60Gb Vertex is my plan, as it gives me enough space for an OS and some storage (Samsung will be relegated to a storage drive that I won't always connect). The Intel SSD's do look really good, but they are significantly more expensive than the 60Gb Vertex in Australia - both Intel X25 drives are about $800AUD compared to $400AUD for the 60Gb Vertex.

The Samsung is quiet enough for general use but overnight I can hear it if it is downloading (one of the main planned usages for this build). The open motherboard probably isn't helping with that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:01 am 
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Location: London
What do you think about this one ?

The AOpen S 100

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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