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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:13 pm 
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wumpus wrote:
Not to get all morally ambiguous on you, but at that level of disdain for MS, why not just pirate it?

wouldn't it be less morally questionable and perfectly legal to run linux instead? i hear lindows does a reasonably good job of running windows apps. and that's the other expense you have to look at: the price of the OS is only a minor insult compared to the financial injury of buying MS/Office.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:23 am 
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Since I have a 1-year old mid-tower Dell Dimension 4500 P4 1.8 sitting in my living room, may be I add something to this. It wasn't until I have put 2 more HD - Seagate 160 and 200g drive (3 total) would I start hearing anything. I still have it sitting right next to all my A/V equipment. Sometimes I would run this Dell for 2-3 days straight. Most of the time, I don’t even know it is on.

BTW, I am starting to build a Sonata to replace I have been taking this Dell apart to learn Dell's tricks to keep the noise low.

These are my observations (no necessary in the right order):

1) Dell has a great case. It has a heavy steel clam-shell inside, separating the mobo / case fan from the drives. This design cutting down Resonant noise greatly. Secondly, it case has a softer plastic outer case,, further cutting down resonant noise and defusing Radiated noise.

2) It uses rubber washers for all the drives.

3) It is only equipped with just-enough power supply and fan. In my P4 1.8, it has only a 250w PS and a 80mm fan.

4) Of course, the CPU is passively-cooled via a duct.

5) It uses an exhaust fan-diffuser to cut down wind noise, In another words, the existing air is guided by a fan-shape duct.

Interestly, I believe both the exhaust and PS fans are not temperature-controlled.

These are all great design tricks. Comparing to the Dell Dimension 4500, my new Sonata case needs a lot of works in order to match Dell’s low resonant noise level. I plan to put either liquid asphalt (the white color kind called Snow Roof) or tin roofing tape inside my Sonata. Snow Roof is great for “reaching” the hard-to-reach areas and there are a lot of those areas inside the Sonata. I’d used this stuff to build/mod speakers.

BTW, most of the Dell computers nowadays use standard power connectors,, but the size of the mobo is proprietary. For example, the mobo in my Dell is a variant of D845EPT family. It has 1 PCI less than the full-size ATX version. Because of that, my newly purchased Asus P4G8X would not fit without major reworks of the back plate and other things too.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:39 am 
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buzzlightyear wrote:

BTW, most of the Dell computers nowadays use standard power connectors,, but the size of the mobo is proprietary. For example, the mobo in my Dell is a variant of D845EPT family. It has 1 PCI less than the full-size ATX version. Because of that, my newly purchased Asus P4G8X would not fit without major reworks of the back plate and other things too.


It's all one big conspiracy. Michael Dell is the Devil.
(supposed to sound like Waterboy's mom in the movie)


Last edited by Trip on Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:40 am 
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There is another caveat I should mention, regarding buying a prebuilt system.

Many years ago I bought a Dell OptiPlex GX Pro: a dual PPro machine that came with one CPU. When I went to buy the second cpu I found that I had to buy from Dell because they had left a little piece off the MB that was required for using a second cpu, and that came with the 2nd cpu if you bought it from Dell. In other words, they had me. So, naturally, the price they charged for the 2nd cpu was, pretty much, unbelievable. So I ended up never buying one.

My point is to be careful. Just because it's a big brand name doesn't mean they won't screw you. Try to get standard components.

Yet I would still consider buying another Dell, cause let's face it, they are all like that. And if they aren't, they aren't in business for very long.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:57 am 
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yeah, it's just business. Too bad small businesses built on quality and reliability are not as successful. Just can't compete with "Dude, you got a Dell!" :P


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:28 pm 
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What they can't compete with is the fact that Dell gets stuff much cheaper than they do.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:00 pm 
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Trip wrote:
yeah, it's just business. Too bad small businesses built on quality and reliability are not as successful. Just can't compete with "Dude, you got a Dell!" :P

This is taking the thread even more OT, but how do you think that Dell got its start?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:23 pm 
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aphonos wrote:
Trip wrote:
yeah, it's just business. Too bad small businesses built on quality and reliability are not as successful. Just can't compete with "Dude, you got a Dell!" :P

This is taking the thread even more OT, but how do you think that Dell got its start?

Continuing the OT, that's an interesting story. He was born to wheel & deal, I guess. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Dell Precision 360
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2003 12:31 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Isn't the G5 spec'd at 35 dBA/1m? That's the number I recall being bandied around its launch. Quieter than that is not quiet for a home machine. 30 dBA/1m for a machine of that speed is not difficult to reach. I have a 2.8-P4 (with GF4800-128 VGA) machine that measures ~26 dBA -- which doesn't sound that quiet in my home office. I bet you'd be amazed at how high the ambient noise level in your workplace is -- compared to a typical home, I'd guess it's at least 10-15 dBA higher.


I've only listened to the G5 in a room that's already a bit loud, so scratch that comparisson. Suffice to say it's *far* quieter than the mirror-door G4's (at idle) but far louder if the fans ramp up for some reason.

As for the Dells... This is a school lab w/ carpeted floors and your standard concrete walls. I was in there last night doing some work by myself. All the doors were closed, and the room is well isolated from outside noise. All 21 computers were on and running, and the loudest thing I could hear was the flourescent lights. These computers are *very* quiet. There's a very soft background whoosh when all the computers are on. If only one or two were on, you wouldn't know it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:33 am 
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Remember too, that the big vendors build with the assumption that the machine will not be run to anything like its potential. My office Compaqs use ducted air over the cpu and out the back. If I run any kind of DC app, the cpu gets to 60C (allegedly) and you can certainly add 10C to that to get the centre of the core.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:23 pm 
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big vendors DO assume machines will not be pushed to their max.? Unless there is no warranty, that seems a little risky. Do you think this is true for home desktops or just business PCs?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:25 pm 
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I almost always encourage "friends and family" to buy Dells. My wife has had her's for 3 years, and it's almost never shut off - very quiet as well. It's not as quiet as my rig (see sig) but it's close. My dad, my brother in law, my father in law, my wifes best friend - etc. all have Dells. All are extremely happy. My brother, who is technically competent (for an engineer :wink: ) - well his is like mine only Intel (see the sig again...)

The main reason I encourage them - I work enough hours in a day doing technical support - the last thing I want to do at night is troubleshoot PC's over the phone - let Dell do it! Plus the fact that from what I've seen the probably don't need it anyway!

What I usually do is spec the machine out for them, and then send them the saved "shopping cart".

I personally don't want one myself (other than the fact that I have a Dell workstation and laptop at work) because I have always built my own. My first build was a 486DX-33 I built in 1992 (with 8 MB of Ram :shock: ) and the latest - yes see the sig again. No reason to change my own build habits (other than coming over to the quiet side of the street), and I see no reason to change my referal habits either.

For most people- Dell is a great way to go - but not for everybody. Reliable, fairly quiet, always on sale, convenient. Should be a no brainer.

My $0.02 worth...

BTW - read this - http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/2241419 and note #9

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:37 pm 
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ARM's STEALTH line looks better to me, though I wouldn't call them "extremely quiet."

My family uses DELL as well :arrow: affordable and as you say fairly quiet, fairly good service, etc.

EDIT: I heard recently that Dell is moving some of their phone support from over seas back into the US and Canada. Apparently there were complaints that the reps didn't speak English well. This was one of my big problems with Dell b/c I kept having to repeat myself for them to understand me. This may partially be due to my err, Southern drawl, but was also at least in part due to occasionally weak connections.

The only reason I didn't think the Stealth line wouldn't be extremely quiet was the performance components listed on their site. Sounds like they may well deserve their title.


Last edited by Trip on Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:05 am 
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Speaking of ARM Systems, I was in SF briefly after Comdex last week to visit my parents. ARM is only ~50 mi north of where they live, so I took a drive up for a quick vist.

They were really busy but took a bit of time to show me around. They have a 10,000 sf facility. They showed me a fully loaded P4-3.2G system they had just finished testing for a game development customer. I mean LOADED to the gills:

2 GB of very high speed RAM
4 HDDs,
ATI9800XT,
24-bit sound card
2 optical drives
etc.

They said it had been running a commercial burn-in program for 48 hrs -- the temps were amazingly low AND I could only hear the thing whirring quietly from about a meter away after they turned all the printers and the HVAC system off. I guesstimate 25-28 dBA/1m. Amazing thing is that it is in an Evercase 4252 case -- with 120mm back fan -- which seems too small to handle all that... but they have engineered it somehow!

I hope a review of this model can happen soon. It's possible that my guesstimate of its noise is low because of the higher office ambient noise; I'll know for sure when I have it in my lab. In any case, I think it could fairly be called the silent answer for gamers.. but 4 drives?! :shock:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:55 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Amazing thing is that it is in an Evercase 4252 case -- with 120mm back fan -- which seems too small to handle all that... but they have engineered it somehow!


I keep telling folks that the 4252 is a GREAT case, especially for the price.

And were those 4 drives in a striped RAID?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:24 pm 
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I purchased an ARM Stealth Computer about a year ago - they have a great web site that lets one order a pretty much custom computer, much better than Dell, HP and other sites I've played around with. They were also very professional in their communications with me.

My system as ordered:
Evercase 4252 Case
Seasonic 350W PS modified with Panaflo fans (I don't know if they are undervolted)
Intel D845GEBV2L motherboard
P4 3.06 with the Thermalright SLK900 with an 80mm Panaflo L1 fan at 5v (with fanmate)
One intake and one exhaust 80mm Panaflow L1 fans also set at 5v (with fanmates)
512MB DDR333 ram (one SIMM)
2 Channel Promise ATA-133 IDE RAID card (currently setup as JBOD, not RAID)
One 120GB Seagate Barracuda V 8MB hard drive with the anti-vibration grommet things (this was the drive I ordered, I later found that the drive that was sent with the system had only 2MB of memory. I e-mailed ARM Systems and they sent me a new 120GB 8MB drive and grommets without any questions, they did not even ask for the original 2MB drive back)
PNY Nvidia Quadro 4 NVS200 64MB Dual Display Video Card (no fan)
Creative SB Audigy2 Platinum sound card with front panel I/O panel
Cordless keyboard and mouse
Modem/Fax card
16X slot loading Pioneer DVD player
48X24X48 Sony CDRW
Floppy
Rounded cables
XP Professional and Office 2000 SBE

I've since added:
One more Seagate Barracuda V hard drive for a total of 360GB of storage
A 9 slot card reader in an external 3.5" bay
One more stick of 512MB ram
External wireless LAN
External Stereolink A/D converter (for music, USB 2 connections straight to the back of my stereos, bypasses all sound cards for best sound quality)

Things I want to add:
One of those "waterwheel" slot fans from ThreeGuys (sp?) adjacent to the video card just to get some more heat out of the case, this fan is supposed to be really quiet. I just cannot find one available in the United States though.

Things I've changed/learned:
Cut out all grill material around the various fans (no audible difference but can't hurt airflow)
Removed the fan screws and used those little blue silicone fan mount things (this made no audible difference)
Installed fiberglass window screen material inside the front and side vents to work as a rough filter (it keeps a bunch of the big chunks from getting sucked in)
I learned that you cannot block the side vent hole! The system will overheat and shut down. I also learned that if you keep the side vent open and construct a home made air duct out of thin foam, attach it the the HS fan using the clips holding on the HS fan and extend the duct proximate to the side vent hole the CPU will run much cooler. I did cover up any side vent holes not leading directly into this duct to minimize air "short circuiting" with the rear exhaust fan.

Results:
One very happy customer
One very quiet PC, it is located under my desk and I cannot hear the fans, if I try really hard I can hear the hard drives seeking, but barely
Using MBM the typical temps are 30C to 36C for the CPU and in the high 20's for the other two sensors
Works when indoor temperatures exceed 90F
Oh ya, also one really fast PC with gobs of power and potential
And lastly, one lighter wallet - but ARM Systems verifies the compatibility of the different configurations and also burns in the new computers for 24 hours to check for problems, there's also that warranty thing that is nice to have if needed

Conclusion:
There are worse ways to go in trying to achieve a quiet and powerful PC
It's quieter than the Dell products I've heard


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:14 pm 
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I have a Dell 400sc with 2 seagate 7200.7 hdd, a 9500 ati with a VGA silencer...

I'm finally satisfied with the noise level. I cannot hear my system while sleeping.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:06 pm 
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substance12 wrote:
I have a Dell 400sc with 2 seagate 7200.7 hdd, a 9500 ati with a VGA silencer...

I'm finally satisfied with the noise level. I cannot hear my system while sleeping.


c'mon now, there's no way. You must have replaced a few fans and done some undervolting as well?

Also, I can hear the seeks (though still quiet) from my Seagate V even when suspended and it is supposedly quieter than the 7200.7


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:08 pm 
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Trip wrote:
substance12 wrote:
I have a Dell 400sc with 2 seagate 7200.7 hdd, a 9500 ati with a VGA silencer...

I'm finally satisfied with the noise level. I cannot hear my system while sleeping.


c'mon now, there's no way. You must have replaced a few fans and done some undervolting as well?

Also, I can hear the seeks (though still quiet) from my Seagate V even when suspended and it is supposedly quieter than the 7200.7


I'm not kiddin ya. But we are talking idle noise, right? I'm not making any claims that mine is silent 24/7. If I really listen for it I can make it out... but seriously at that point, it's lost in white noise. The 400sc has a 250V ps. cpu fan is ducked, as you know, and it is also thermally controlled. When I sleep, the 400sc is idleing.

layout of the room helps as well. My head is at least 10 ft from the 400sc on top of being elevated 3 matress heights up.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:13 pm 
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i gotcha and it could be running in suspended mode or something like that.

yea, i think this thread is referring to idle noise so you were right. But y'know, some of the guys in here have good computers that are inaudible a few feet away while under heavy load!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:05 pm 
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how are the dells when under load? i.e. when the fans speed up?

we have some dells are work, and the SFF optiplex (the tiny one without pci expansion) is *very* quiet when idle .. but we also have some 3ghz precisions that make some noticable noise .. then there we have dual xeon dells which are the complete opposite of that little optiplex (like someone put a vantec tornado inside)..


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 Post subject: Dell XPS unbelievably noisy
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:39 pm 
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I spent about 4 hours setting this system up for a client and had to send it back. At idle, the fan noise was significantly noticable in a home office environment (sitting on the floor immediately beside the desk). Once you started using it, the fans kick into high gear and the noise became ridiculous. Easily as loud as my crappy microwave oven. This was a $2,700+ system.

Now I must admit, my client's old PC was also a Dell and it is remarkably quiet, but it's only a P3 1.2Ghz, not requiring as much cooling.

I am starting to look at either the ARM Stealth or Shuttle, but my client is more comfortable going with one of the more mainstream suppliers (ibm, hp, dell, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Dell XPS unbelievably noisy
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:22 am 
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jjdeluxe wrote:
I spent about 4 hours setting this system up for a client and had to send it back. At idle, the fan noise was significantly noticable in a home office environment (sitting on the floor immediately beside the desk). Once you started using it, the fans kick into high gear and the noise became ridiculous. Easily as loud as my crappy microwave oven. This was a $2,700+ system.

Now I must admit, my client's old PC was also a Dell and it is remarkably quiet, but it's only a P3 1.2Ghz, not requiring as much cooling.

I am starting to look at either the ARM Stealth or Shuttle, but my client is more comfortable going with one of the more mainstream suppliers (ibm, hp, dell, etc.)


Hello jjdeluxe, I'm really not trying to turn this reply into an infomercial, but we have encounterd the 'big company' bias more times than I can ever hope to count, and I couldn't read your post without chiming in to help dispell the myth that a bigger company means a better product or better service. :roll: Going with a big name isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and sometimes the customer really misses out on a 'gem' of vendor when they draw the line at the Billion $ level. That's why Lockheed Martin's Missles and Space division, who buy our StealthPC's for some of their engineers :wink:, presented ARM with a distinguished vendor award this year. I have the plaque hanging in my office :D And a few other notable ARM customers are NASA, Lawrence Livermore National Labs, Los Alamos National Labs, MIT, and far too many other very satisfied customers to list in this forum.

So perhaps your client would feel more secure with an ARM StealthPC if they also new that ARM Systems has been in business over 18 years, is an Intel Premier Provider, and ranked by the Gartner Group as a 'Leading System Builder'. We also feature genuine USA based technical support from real engineers who actually build and work on our StealthPC's and all live and work here. That's topped off with a full 50 states nationwide onsite service program too. :wink:

And don't forget the no-hassle limited moneyback guarantee as well, all outlined in our returns policy in writing so everything is clear and understandable. And to top it off, SPCR members and readers get free freight if they purchase by the end of June.

Feel free to give us a call toll free at 800.276.9450, or an email sales@armsystems.com , or a PM on the SPCR forums. We'll do our very best to answer any questions in a straightforward manner, and to ensure that your client made the right choice if they decide to go with an ARM StealthPC.

Oops, I can get carried away at times... :oops: OK, off my soap box... :lol: Sincerely though, please let me or Roy know if we can be of service to you and your clients.

Stevo

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 6:14 am 
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Stevo, et al.,

A few of us are old enough to remember when "nobody gets fired for buying IBM." Many customers need a certain comfort level when purchasing items about which they do not have in-depth knowledge. Support can also be a crucial comfort item. Larger, well-established, firms simply have the advantage of marketplace presence. In the volatile computer-related "industry:, we can all recount the number of firms which have risen and then disappeared. Dell has been remarkably successul and will continue to be so with its relatively conservative strategy; consider its branching into related consumer electronics--quite a cash cow, I understand.

Smaller, less well-known, firms have a difficult time. However, word-of-mouth can be an especially valuable form of advertisement. If jjdeluxe personally vouches for the products' qualities his client wants, though with a smaller vendor, a successful new customer may be created.

As a personal aside, I am currently placing an order for a couple of systems for my lab through ARM. It was largely through the personal experience of SPCR members that *I* got enough confidence enough to trust a single vendor to do what I did piecemeal. I'm at the point where I want to off-load support from my lab, and I honestly considered some of the "big guys." I'll report my experiences as time goes on.

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