dont keep us in the dark
Introducing my new watercooling design concept!
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
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toiletduckuk
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:53 pm
- Location: Hull, UK
about time for an update i suppose.
the design has been updated to make room for the electronics, something i neglected earlier. as for the relay detection circuit design, i have no idea how to actually make it as i'm no electronics expert. eniacs insists it's an "incredibly simple" circuit but unfortunately that doesn't make it any easier for me
connecting the hoses is another problem. as i'm not using an incredibly strong pump (eheim 1048, which will be modified to reduce noise and vibration as well as improve head slightly) i want to keep the restrictions to a minimum. the quick disconnect fittings (or at least the affordable ones) all do fairly nasty things to the flow rate, so i'm contemplating just having the user use male + female threaded barbs attached through a pci slot. very ugly solution though, i'm still researching the options.
the design has been updated to make room for the electronics, something i neglected earlier. as for the relay detection circuit design, i have no idea how to actually make it as i'm no electronics expert. eniacs insists it's an "incredibly simple" circuit but unfortunately that doesn't make it any easier for me
connecting the hoses is another problem. as i'm not using an incredibly strong pump (eheim 1048, which will be modified to reduce noise and vibration as well as improve head slightly) i want to keep the restrictions to a minimum. the quick disconnect fittings (or at least the affordable ones) all do fairly nasty things to the flow rate, so i'm contemplating just having the user use male + female threaded barbs attached through a pci slot. very ugly solution though, i'm still researching the options.
i did get thinking about the circuit, i even got as far as choosing components when i rembered that one end of the resistor would have to be connected to a ground part of the sense circuit, so you circuit supply would have to be floating ground, else it would short the mains out.
Whilst it would work you would need to be sure the mains would not be shorted out. This would be easy here in a lab, but not so easy for a home brew - especially if you dont know what your doing!
Whilst it would work you would need to be sure the mains would not be shorted out. This would be easy here in a lab, but not so easy for a home brew - especially if you dont know what your doing!
Aah nice to know the ideas still being developed heavily. The eheim 1048 should be more than adequate, just make sure the waterblock isnt a restrictive type but more of a low restriction design, those are better fot the slightly lower flow watercooling systems. Also for the barbs, have you thought of using 5/8" (or similar) barbs? thats a good solution that will work well with even the most complex clip system, the od will result to approx 1/2" or close enough not to cause any restriction or very little. The tubes will go to that size and it'll ensure a snug fit that will not slip off when transporting/disconnecting.
As for the electronics, ive done curcuits similar and i dont see why there is such a problem, just get a mains capable relay and hook it up suitably... unless you guys dont have an earth wire on your plugs (which i remember in the US some people dont right???)
As for the electronics, ive done curcuits similar and i dont see why there is such a problem, just get a mains capable relay and hook it up suitably... unless you guys dont have an earth wire on your plugs (which i remember in the US some people dont right???)
i did a lot of work on the design yesterday, i'll be able to use quick disconnect couplings which means transporting the system is an absolutely breeze it also affords me a very neat way to flush the system.
the waterblock will actually be a jet impingement style waterblock, but i'll be paying attention to how restrictive it is. either way, it'll work better than a low restriction block no matter what the flow rate. (within reason hehe)
5/8" barbs where? do u mean 3/8" barbs? i think i've come up with a solution to the getting-tubes-into-the-case problem, it isn't too pretty but it'll work well, it uses 3/8" BSP x 1/2" T male+female barbs.
i'll look into a mains relay, thanks, however i have a feeling it won't be that simple since i need to be able to calibrate the mains draw required to trigger it. and yes we have earth wires on our plugs
it also affords me a very neat way to flush the system.the waterblock will actually be a jet impingement style waterblock, but i'll be paying attention to how restrictive it is. either way, it'll work better than a low restriction block no matter what the flow rate. (within reason hehe)
5/8" barbs where? do u mean 3/8" barbs? i think i've come up with a solution to the getting-tubes-into-the-case problem, it isn't too pretty but it'll work well, it uses 3/8" BSP x 1/2" T male+female barbs.
i'll look into a mains relay, thanks, however i have a feeling it won't be that simple since i need to be able to calibrate the mains draw required to trigger it. and yes we have earth wires on our plugs
the ones from mmc that i indicated above are for 1/2" id tubing, which is perfect.
the quick disconnect fittings are actually going to be quite restrictive, which is why i'm not 100% sold on them. however, for this to be a practical kit, portability is a necessity and i can't really afford to compromise.
the quick disconnect fittings are actually going to be quite restrictive, which is why i'm not 100% sold on them. however, for this to be a practical kit, portability is a necessity and i can't really afford to compromise.
hmm if theyre restrictive, the worse thing you can do is couple it with a restrictive waterblock, 2 highly restrictive points in the system is going to annihalate flow. I think that a low restrictive, lower flow waterblock would go well with it as it works well in my system and also seems have to be proven by the reserator although im still not sure about my opinions of that thing.
ok the design of the box and the components and the layout has been finalised. just the financials to sort out now.
concentrating on the waterblock design, it'll be a jet impingement design similar to cathar's, but different in many respects. think "tuned for low flowrate performance" and "quick to manufacture".
concentrating on the waterblock design, it'll be a jet impingement design similar to cathar's, but different in many respects. think "tuned for low flowrate performance" and "quick to manufacture".
I'll add my own two cents (some of which has already been spent by others):
0) Silent. This goes without saying. Not quiet, but silent. No fans anywhere.
1) Ability to cool down a lot of stuff (say 2 x cpu, 1 x hot gpu, 1 x bridge chip, 2 x HD, maybe even a PSU)
2) Ability to change pumps to accomodate powerful requirements (see 1)
3) Preferably a complete kit with all parts included.
4) Easy to install with plenty of visual instructions and tips for maintenance
5) Safe, bomb-proof, reliable and then some. Did I say reliable? Did i say "no leaks" already
6) universal fitting of blocks (or new modules/pieces available as new ones are needed)
The above would get my vote and euros.
If it did all of the above I could easily pay €400 for it.
0) Silent. This goes without saying. Not quiet, but silent. No fans anywhere.
1) Ability to cool down a lot of stuff (say 2 x cpu, 1 x hot gpu, 1 x bridge chip, 2 x HD, maybe even a PSU)
2) Ability to change pumps to accomodate powerful requirements (see 1)
3) Preferably a complete kit with all parts included.
4) Easy to install with plenty of visual instructions and tips for maintenance
5) Safe, bomb-proof, reliable and then some. Did I say reliable? Did i say "no leaks" already
6) universal fitting of blocks (or new modules/pieces available as new ones are needed)
The above would get my vote and euros.
If it did all of the above I could easily pay €400 for it.
3-6 are definitely possible. the others are a bit iffy though:
0 & 1: (i like it how you start at 0): it is extremely hard to passively cool 2xcpu + gpu + nb + 2x hdd + psu. indeed, it's hard enough to passively cool a single hot (100W+) cpu. the only way i see that happening is with a large, cumbersome evaporative setup, and that in itself poses severe problems.
what can be done, however, is to baffle the air intake/exhaust ports of the unit such that the noise is significantly reduced. this should make it silent enough.
2: changing pumps isn't easy either because the user might get water everywhere. and also, the design i have at the moment is built around the physical dimensions of an eheim 1048; a bigger pump simply wouldn't fit in it.
if anyone has any suggestions on how to solve the #2 problem above, i'd be more than happy to hear about it.
0 & 1: (i like it how you start at 0): it is extremely hard to passively cool 2xcpu + gpu + nb + 2x hdd + psu. indeed, it's hard enough to passively cool a single hot (100W+) cpu. the only way i see that happening is with a large, cumbersome evaporative setup, and that in itself poses severe problems.
what can be done, however, is to baffle the air intake/exhaust ports of the unit such that the noise is significantly reduced. this should make it silent enough.
2: changing pumps isn't easy either because the user might get water everywhere. and also, the design i have at the moment is built around the physical dimensions of an eheim 1048; a bigger pump simply wouldn't fit in it.
if anyone has any suggestions on how to solve the #2 problem above, i'd be more than happy to hear about it.
Thanks for the good comments. I probably went overboard with my wishes, but something to that direction would be nice.
I'd like to buy the Zalman Reserator, but I'm not convinced it is anywhear near enough cooling power to cool down my current and next system.
Maybe I should just comission a big wall-size radiator and forget about warming the apartment during winter time
I'd like to buy the Zalman Reserator, but I'm not convinced it is anywhear near enough cooling power to cool down my current and next system.
Maybe I should just comission a big wall-size radiator and forget about warming the apartment during winter time
well that's exactly what i want - people to throw wild wishes at me so i have something to aim for. bringing things back down to earth is an implementation issue that i'll have to tackle, as far as the end user is concerned all they need to do is ask for everything
the reserator is definitely going to be something i'll be comparing the unit to since the objectives are the same - an external, silent, all-in-one watercooling box. my concept is different in that it's a billion times more portable (maybe not a billion, but you get the idea) and it performs as good or better than a well thought out DIY setup.
the problem is, getting people to pay roughly twice as much as the reserator for just those few (albeit significant) differences.
the reserator is definitely going to be something i'll be comparing the unit to since the objectives are the same - an external, silent, all-in-one watercooling box. my concept is different in that it's a billion times more portable (maybe not a billion, but you get the idea) and it performs as good or better than a well thought out DIY setup.
the problem is, getting people to pay roughly twice as much as the reserator for just those few (albeit significant) differences.
Make the design partially opened, with the pump exposed. Or even better, have the pump mounted to the outside of the box. Granted that makes it look less pretty, but you probably won't have to worry about the pump overheating (if that's at all a problem).chylld wrote:2: changing pumps isn't easy either because the user might get water everywhere. and also, the design i have at the moment is built around the physical dimensions of an eheim 1048; a bigger pump simply wouldn't fit in it.
if anyone has any suggestions on how to solve the #2 problem above, i'd be more than happy to hear about it.
BTW, like I said before, depending on the final costs and if you can show that it's damn good and it works, I'll will seriously consider buying one from you (though you'll have to give me time to come up with the money).
exposing the pump wouldn't be very pretty at all. the pump i intend to use has the inlet on one side, the power cord coming out of the other, and the outlet coming out of one of the other sides, so there's no real way of keeping it exposed without exposing something i'd rather keep hidden.
pump heat isn't really a problem, it is better to have the pump's heat absorbed by the atmosphere than contained within the box, but i don't think it has a big enough impact to warrant a design change.
thanks for your continued support steve, i've recently got more motivation to kick this project along further (as well as more financial backing) so things are definitely looking up
pump heat isn't really a problem, it is better to have the pump's heat absorbed by the atmosphere than contained within the box, but i don't think it has a big enough impact to warrant a design change.
thanks for your continued support steve, i've recently got more motivation to kick this project along further (as well as more financial backing) so things are definitely looking up
Nice to hear chylld, i aint been on here for a long long time again but its good to hear your still going ahead with this project, any sneek peaks at the design? Im very keen on what its gonna turn out like. Great idea on baffling the air intakes but im a little confused about that big as those soultions are usually quite big! I thought you were going for compact size. Anyways if your thinking of putting a couple of fans in there i doubt many people will be able to hear a 120mm panaflo on 5v or even 4v from a couple of ft above ambient however quiet the room.
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toiletduckuk
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:53 pm
- Location: Hull, UK
heya seal, welcome back
i've actually revamped the whole design and the new design performs better, is more compact and is also cheaper to produce it's also a lot more tolerant to product size variations so in case the rad measurements change (sometimes they do) then i won't be in nearly as much trouble.
the old design was essentially a rad on its side on one side, the fans at the other end with a complicated shroud in between them that also served as a structural support and a housing for the pump. unfortunately a cost evaluation proved it to be very expensive and also it was very tight for space. the pump was an eheim 1048 and i don't think i'll be using that pump now because dual csp750's seem to be the way to go now especially since i want to be running an inline filter. (don't want crap coming out of my box )
the biggest hurdle (apart from cutting down the cost price) so far has been designing something out of plastic and metal that looks nice. so most likely i'm going to stick with something that i know relatively well - wood and it looks much nicer to boot.
i haven't had a great deal of time recently and i plan on solving that by stepping down as video director for a university production i'm signed up for. it's quite simply taking up too much of my time and to be honest, i am much much more interested in watercooling
i've actually revamped the whole design and the new design performs better, is more compact and is also cheaper to produce
it's also a lot more tolerant to product size variations so in case the rad measurements change (sometimes they do) then i won't be in nearly as much trouble.the old design was essentially a rad on its side on one side, the fans at the other end with a complicated shroud in between them that also served as a structural support and a housing for the pump. unfortunately a cost evaluation proved it to be very expensive and also it was very tight for space. the pump was an eheim 1048 and i don't think i'll be using that pump now because dual csp750's seem to be the way to go now especially since i want to be running an inline filter. (don't want crap coming out of my box
)the biggest hurdle (apart from cutting down the cost price) so far has been designing something out of plastic and metal that looks nice. so most likely i'm going to stick with something that i know relatively well - wood
and it looks much nicer to boot.i haven't had a great deal of time recently and i plan on solving that by stepping down as video director for a university production i'm signed up for. it's quite simply taking up too much of my time and to be honest, i am much much more interested in watercooling
To make it external... maximum you can go on tubing through PCI slot is unfortunately. 3/8 OD. Thus the restriction on how you can pass the water through.
Inside the case, 1/2 ID will be too big to be user friendly and 3/8id 1/2OD will be maximum that will be usuable. Now to go through PCI with 1/2 OD will probably need something that splits 3/8id into 2 3/8od tubing and merge it back inside case. (or make PCI slot mount with proper threading somehow...) Doesn't have to be circular obviously and something that can be quick disconnected with embadded valve. (This is where I got stuck as most stuff for these cost upwards of $12-15 a piece!)
Big radiator/HC is must so you can run low noise 120mm fan at 5-7v and see minimal dip on performance vs 12v.
Pump that can handle the head. Probably those 2 2x2x2 pumps in line would be perfect since you will generally get couple more feet of tubing on external system.
CPU block should be easy to mount. Something like swiftech 6000 sieries would be awesome as P4's won't even need much modding to do... maybe even the Koolance CPU block. GPU block could be anything as you will have to screw in anyway.
All the tubing must have easy connecting method like quick connect, etc.
External housing should be turned on by either molex or 3 pin fan connector.
Casing should offer at least 2 different color to match general cases... aluminum, and black. Something like pipe shell with modders mesh to cover to allow optimal airflow without restriction will help ventilating well with some sturdy handles to ease transportation.
Nice rubber feets to reduce any vibration as well as suspending the pumps.
I scrounged around and it will cost me nice $260-70 for this setup. And many many hours... (I've done similar thing before so I know what are the pains involved).
Add to it the need for being able to cover for RMA, return's etc... I doubt u can beat current kits pricing by much if at all. Would be better to hit the higher end market with more finesse and hit for $300-$350 zone (depending on number of blocks involved).
Me? I am getting Exos. Tired of spending countless time tweaking system (I seem to tweak it more than using it sometimes...)
Inside the case, 1/2 ID will be too big to be user friendly and 3/8id 1/2OD will be maximum that will be usuable. Now to go through PCI with 1/2 OD will probably need something that splits 3/8id into 2 3/8od tubing and merge it back inside case. (or make PCI slot mount with proper threading somehow...) Doesn't have to be circular obviously and something that can be quick disconnected with embadded valve. (This is where I got stuck as most stuff for these cost upwards of $12-15 a piece!)
Big radiator/HC is must so you can run low noise 120mm fan at 5-7v and see minimal dip on performance vs 12v.
Pump that can handle the head. Probably those 2 2x2x2 pumps in line would be perfect since you will generally get couple more feet of tubing on external system.
CPU block should be easy to mount. Something like swiftech 6000 sieries would be awesome as P4's won't even need much modding to do... maybe even the Koolance CPU block. GPU block could be anything as you will have to screw in anyway.
All the tubing must have easy connecting method like quick connect, etc.
External housing should be turned on by either molex or 3 pin fan connector.
Casing should offer at least 2 different color to match general cases... aluminum, and black. Something like pipe shell with modders mesh to cover to allow optimal airflow without restriction will help ventilating well with some sturdy handles to ease transportation.
Nice rubber feets to reduce any vibration as well as suspending the pumps.
I scrounged around and it will cost me nice $260-70 for this setup. And many many hours... (I've done similar thing before so I know what are the pains involved).
Add to it the need for being able to cover for RMA, return's etc... I doubt u can beat current kits pricing by much if at all. Would be better to hit the higher end market with more finesse and hit for $300-$350 zone (depending on number of blocks involved).
Me? I am getting Exos. Tired of spending countless time tweaking system (I seem to tweak it more than using it sometimes...)
thanks for your reply, jinu117! your comments are most appreciated.
interfacing through a pci slot is going to be tricky. also, especially since the bottom-most pci slot will be recommended (just in case of leaks from improper installation) then the tubes will have to go around/over the graphics card and any other pci expansion cards. it would be a pain to be burdened by tubing when one wants to change a card. (not impossible to remove, but harder than it needs to be)
unfortunately i don't see any other user-friendly way of getting the tubing into the case. going through a front bay looks ridiculous and is a problem for cases with doors.
re tubing size, i'm pretty much fixed on 1/2" ID / 3/4" OD tubing. it is big and cumbersome yes, but given that the only thing inside the case will be tubing and waterblocks, it's worth the compromise. i know exactly what you're talking about, many times while building my system i cursed the fat tubing and wished i was using skinnier stuff, but one of the main goals of this system is high performance and i would like to avoid deviating from this plan unless absolutely necessary.
one thing that i will be testing though is the performance difference between 1/2" ID and 1/2" OD.
i'll be using a big radiator, don't worry talking 2x120mm here.
cpu block mounting will require a little bit of research but most likely i'll be leaning towards using the mounting holes in the motherboard. granted, this will require removal of the motherboard in most cases but it ensures a near-perfect mount every time especially when used in conjunction with springs. using the k7 lug mounts will only be looked into on demand.
quick connect fittings are hard to come by for the tubing size i intend to use (3/4" OD) and tend to get a bit pricey. my current plan is to use worm-gear clamps with regular hose barbs as that is the most secure method. if i decide that 1/2" OD tubing will suffice then i'll look into quick connect fittings otherwise i'll be giving them a miss.
the external housing will be powered directly from the mains. it'll be wired up such that the computer will be plugged into the unit instead of into the wall, so that the computer can never be turned on when the unit is off. this is a very simply and effective safety feature. it will also be fused.
indeed, it isn't going to be a cheap unit so i am aiming for the high end market right away. it can be seen as a foolish step but i think i'm onto something here with both the design/packaging of the unit as well as the inner workings of the waterblocks.
interfacing through a pci slot is going to be tricky. also, especially since the bottom-most pci slot will be recommended (just in case of leaks from improper installation) then the tubes will have to go around/over the graphics card and any other pci expansion cards. it would be a pain to be burdened by tubing when one wants to change a card. (not impossible to remove, but harder than it needs to be)
unfortunately i don't see any other user-friendly way of getting the tubing into the case. going through a front bay looks ridiculous and is a problem for cases with doors.
re tubing size, i'm pretty much fixed on 1/2" ID / 3/4" OD tubing. it is big and cumbersome yes, but given that the only thing inside the case will be tubing and waterblocks, it's worth the compromise. i know exactly what you're talking about, many times while building my system i cursed the fat tubing and wished i was using skinnier stuff, but one of the main goals of this system is high performance and i would like to avoid deviating from this plan unless absolutely necessary.
one thing that i will be testing though is the performance difference between 1/2" ID and 1/2" OD.
i'll be using a big radiator, don't worry
talking 2x120mm here.cpu block mounting will require a little bit of research but most likely i'll be leaning towards using the mounting holes in the motherboard. granted, this will require removal of the motherboard in most cases but it ensures a near-perfect mount every time especially when used in conjunction with springs. using the k7 lug mounts will only be looked into on demand.
quick connect fittings are hard to come by for the tubing size i intend to use (3/4" OD) and tend to get a bit pricey. my current plan is to use worm-gear clamps with regular hose barbs as that is the most secure method. if i decide that 1/2" OD tubing will suffice then i'll look into quick connect fittings otherwise i'll be giving them a miss.
the external housing will be powered directly from the mains. it'll be wired up such that the computer will be plugged into the unit instead of into the wall, so that the computer can never be turned on when the unit is off. this is a very simply and effective safety feature. it will also be fused.
indeed, it isn't going to be a cheap unit so i am aiming for the high end market right away. it can be seen as a foolish step but i think i'm onto something here with both the design/packaging of the unit as well as the inner workings of the waterblocks.