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 Post subject: Watercooling Basics (for silence) - any help appriciated :)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:41 pm 
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Location: Hull, UK
Hey guys - I'm looking at running a wc kit to take the fans out of my PC.
Avalible kits seem pretty skanky, so looking at custom building. So, you get my newb questions :) hope you don't mind!

From what I've researched, I'm looking at:

Pump - Eheim 1048 600l/h Pump, and suspending it

Reservoir- Danger Den Resivour, although, to be honest, I don't have a clue what difference this makes

Radiator - Not the slightest here; I don't mind paying to get silence

Headers - I want Northbridge, CPU, VGA, and enough power to support a wc PSU and HDD in the future. Again, not sure what the best brands are.

Water, Flow Meteres, Cabling - I've read silicon cables are best, but making sure I order correct size tubes and fittings is again a little scary.

Any recommendations? Most important is total silence, or it being attainable via mods. My concern is that I don't order a certain bit, or have 1/2" to 3/8" connectors, or something equally dopey.

Thanks!

Dave


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:37 pm 
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Location: Reading, UK
One thing which may be quite interesting for you (stock-wise), is Zalman's Reservator. Check these thread here for some infos:

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=12097

thee are others, but I couldn't find them at the moment (my connection is rather oddly slow all of a sudden...)

There's one to be reviewed by SPCR - it's got me interested too (and I just bought a ThermalRight SP-94 and don't like watercooling). Like most of Zalman's stuff it certainly seems nice & quiet.

One can trust SPCR review that they'll check for ultimate silence verdict in this regard...

*prays that it'll be able to cool a 3.4 Ghz Perscott + Geforce 6800 Ultra...*

- Shathal. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:20 pm 
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Good radiator
Even though passive radiators like the Zalman look cool, the fittings are so small, and therefore restrict water flow a quiet pump like the Ehiem would easily become underpowered. There's no reason not to run a very very slow and quiet fan since a pump will probally be audible with a passive radiator (not quite sure but just a guess).


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:48 pm 
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Location: Hull, UK
Quote:
One thing which may be quite interesting for you (stock-wise), is Zalman's Reservator. Check these thread here for some infos:


I've already ruled out the Zalman kit - while looking pretty, it just doesn't seem to have the kick to do the job I want.

Quote:
*prays that it'll be able to cool a 3.4 Ghz Perscott + Geforce 6800 Ultra...*


I'm with ya there, I'm only running 3ghz prescott and it's just too hot for my liking

Quote:
since a pump will probally be audible with a passive radiator


I'm hoping a suspended\dampened\something'ed Ehiem will be silent, though I don't mind undervolted quality fans on my radiator.

Don't suppose there are any more slightly direct guides on the subject? It'd be nice to be reassured :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:03 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
i was in the exact same situation 3 months ago :)

i just finished my setup last night, and let me assure you there is a lot of trial and error involved in getting a watercooling setup right, so i'll do my best to convey my experiences to you so that you don't end up spending AUD800 like i did..

firstly, if you're doing it for noise, then you're going to be disappointed. a finely tuned aircooled setup will, in my experience, be quieter than even a finely tuned watercooled setup. however, the watercooled setup will perform 10 degrees or more better, and that's where the advantage of watercooling is.

the eheim 1048 is a brilliant pump but if you put it inside your case you're going to have to suspend it well, otherwise it'll vibrate your chassis into the next millenium.

reservoir: any reservoir will do. the reservoir makes the job of filling and bleeding easier, at a slight cost to performance. this is because with a reservoir, the pump has to accelerate still water. in a closed loop setup (i.e. no reservoir) the water going into the pump comes in at a much faster rate, boosting your overall flow rate and thus performance. it is an absolute pain to fill and bleed though.

radiator: the important thing to remember here is to STAY AWAY FROM THE COMMERCIAL OFFERINGS. this include jaron icecool, hwlabs black ice series, etc etc. these companies are merely making an easy buck out of you by adding a shroud onto car heatercores and selling them as "computer watercooling radiators." most of the time they don't even do the shroud properly, more about that below. you REALLY want to go to your local radiator repair place and ask for either a 1x120mm heatercore or a 2x120mm heatercore. the most popular heatercores for use in watercooling setups are the toyota camry chassis sv21 heatercore and the holden vk commodore heatercore. essentially you want a heatercore that has a core area large enough for 2 120mm fans. these heatercores here in australia cost about AUD75-85 brand new, and they will EASILY outperform any of the black ice offerings which cost upwards of AUD130.

shroud and fan direction: if you're going to watercool without a shroud, don't expect good performance. a shroud is absolutely vital when it comes to realising the full potential of any fan-cooled watercooling setup. in general, you want the fan sucking air through the rad with at least 1 fan hub diameter between the fan and the radiator. this is to eliminate the dead spot in the middle of axial fans. sucking air through the rad also achieves the most silence as well as the best performance. if you're going to be blowing the air through the rad, you need five times the hub diameter between the fan and the rad to overcome the dead spot. even so, noise will be higher and performance will take a hit.

waterblocks: CPU: the best commercially available blocks are the dangerden rbx, silverprop cyclone se and the d-tek white water. just grab any of those.

GPU: silverprop fusion is the best i've heard of, if you can't find that then the dangerden maze4 is a pretty good gpu block.

NB: not needed. unless you're heavily overclocking your fsb, you're just going to end up adding another restriction to your loop and reducing your overall performance. a zalman nb32/47 passive option is more than adequate.

flow meters: ignore them.

water: you want to use a mixture of distilled water and radiator coolant which has anti-corrosive properties as well as anti-boil and anti-freeze. do not even let normal tap water touch any of the components in your system, as it'll cause corrosion. i use a mix of 92% distilled water and 8% nulon ultra cool (might not be available in your area.)

tubing: silicon tubing absorbs vibrations the best but tends to kink easily, especially if you're using 1/2" ID tubing. i recommend clearflex 60 1/2" ID tubing, it's perfect, although it might be wise to run silicon tubing directly off the pump in order to absorb it's vibrations a little.

in general you want to stay at a particular diameter tubing throughout. 1/2" ID will give you MUCH better performance than 1/2" OD or 3/8" OD, thus you will be able to run the fans slower and the system will be quieter. you want a nice big heatercore with a core area large enough for 2x 120mm fans. you want a reservoir for ease of filling and bleeding and you want a good cpu block (one of the 3 above) to take the heat away from the processor.

as a treat, here's a pic of my setup, which has an eheim 1048 with a vk commodore rad, 2 papst 4412fgl fans and 1/2" ID clearflex tubing:

Image

edit: information about my watercooling box available here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:53 pm
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Location: Hull, UK
Quote:
firstly, if you're doing it for noise, then you're going to be disappointed. a finely tuned aircooled setup will, in my experience, be quieter than even a finely tuned watercooled setup. however, the watercooled setup will perform 10 degrees or more better, and that's where the advantage of watercooling is.


yuk :( what generates the noise? I actually began looking into WC after reading some of Seal's posts
Quote:
NB: not needed. unless you're heavily overclocking your fsb, you're just going to end up adding another restriction to your loop and reducing your overall performance. a zalman nb32/47 passive option is more than adequate.


No clocking, but running an IC7-G with a very hot fsb as it is - with little airflow through the case, I'm not confident in just a Zalman NB sink

Quote:
1/2" ID will give you MUCH better performance than 1/2" OD or 3/8" OD


ID vs OD? What are they?

Thanks very much for the post - been very informative :D

How does your setup actually work? I assume it's an outside box with two tubes that run into the case?

Anyone know anything about watercooled PSUs also? Will the pump i listed earlier handle that added on top? Currently looking at this badboy http://snt-systems.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_33 - expensive, but i'm obsessive :)

Thanks!

Dave


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:28 pm 
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chylld wrote:
radiator: the important thing to remember here is to STAY AWAY FROM THE COMMERCIAL OFFERINGS. this include jaron icecool, hwlabs black ice series, etc etc. these companies are merely making an easy buck out of you by adding a shroud onto car heatercores and selling them as "computer watercooling radiators." most of the time they don't even do the shroud properly, more about that below. you REALLY want to go to your local radiator repair place and ask for either a 1x120mm heatercore or a 2x120mm heatercore. the most popular heatercores for use in watercooling setups are the toyota camry chassis sv21 heatercore and the holden vk commodore heatercore. essentially you want a heatercore that has a core area large enough for 2 120mm fans. these heatercores here in australia cost about AUD75-85 brand new, and they will EASILY outperform any of the black ice offerings which cost upwards of AUD130.


I knew this would get posted.

Where does everyone find these cheap heater cores and free barb installers?

In my case, a Black Ice Extreme was less expensive than getting a heater core and having barbs put on it.


Scott

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:31 pm 
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Location: Hull, UK
Yeah, to be honest, I don't fancy all the hassle of buying and building my own on the first go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:36 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
toiletduckuk wrote:
yuk :( what generates the noise? I actually began looking into WC after reading some of Seal's posts


oh don't get me wrong, seal's system is probably quiet enough to call silent (like mine). finely tuned watercooling is well within acceptable SPCR levels, i'm just nitpicking.

the noise is primarily generated by the sound of turbulence that arises out of pulling/pushing air through the radiator. however it isn't an annoying noise. especially with an eheim 1048 pump which doesn't make any noise at all :)

toiletduckuk wrote:
No clocking, but running an IC7-G with a very hot fsb as it is - with little airflow through the case, I'm not confident in just a Zalman NB sink


ok then, for the nb you can pretty much use the cheapest block you can buy. look for one that has a simple design (i.e. no fins or anything) because it isn't needed and you don't want to add much of a restriction to your loop. also, with an NB block, you might have trouble routing the tubing as the turns from the cpu and gpu are very very tight.

a note about order - IT DOESN'T MATTER. as long as the reservoir (if you have one) is immediately before the pump, the order of the other components DOES NOT MATTER. the flow rates provided by quality pumps (like the eheim) mean that the difference between the 'hot' parts of the loop and the 'cold' parts of the loop will be less than a degree. just do whatever is easiest in terms of tubing routing.

toiletduckuk wrote:
ID vs OD? What are they?


ID refers to inner diameter, OD refers to outer diameter. e.g. a waterblock with 1/2" barbs will suit 1/2" ID tubing. etc.

toiletduckuk wrote:
How does your setup actually work? I assume it's an outside box with two tubes that run into the case?


yes it's an outside box, there are 2 tubes running from the watercooling box to my pc. i did this so i could have the radiator outside the case, receiving fresh air. i got a 20C performance increase by doing this. (although i upgraded the radiator at the same time).

toiletduckuk wrote:
Anyone know anything about watercooled PSUs also? Will the pump i listed earlier handle that added on top?


the 1048 will be able to handle a psu no problems, as long as you haven't clogged up your loop with 90degree elbows or similar :)

there aren't any prominent watercooled PSU's on the market atm, i would wait a little longer. i'm running the BQE's psu, albeit with mods, and it's inaudible. if you can't hear it already, no need to add it to your loop :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:39 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
toiletduckuk wrote:
Yeah, to be honest, I don't fancy all the hassle of buying and building my own on the first go


it's part of the fun of DIY. of course, you don't have to do it like this, but you'll end up paying twice as much for less performance.

sbabb: sorry you can't find heatercores anywhere. where are you looking? i got mine from a local radiator repair place and spoke to the manager about my watercooling project and he agreed to give me a heatercore for much less than he'd charge a normal customer. plus he agreed to solder on barbs for cheap, and leaktest it and everything.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:44 pm 
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Location: Hull, UK
Quote:
i'm running the BQE's psu, albeit with mods, and it's inaudible


Sorry to be a noob, but whats this then :)

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Audigy 2 * Lainli PC70
Plans to watercool! :)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:58 pm 
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it's the psu that came with my Antec SLK3700BQE case, the model number of the psu is SL350S. it's an 80mm-fanned psu.

i swapped out the fan for a panaflo L1A, which is running at 7v constant. i also removed the rear fan grill and bent the front grill slats parallel to airflow. the result is a psu that simply cannot be heard at all.

if you want to do this kind of psu fan swap mod, i'd suggest a seasonic super silencer or a zalman b-series. essentially any psu with high efficiency that won't need much airflow to keep it from cooking up :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:27 am 
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toiletduckuk:
Even an Eheim 1048 makes some noise, but it's very quiet. The problem is you must suspend it hanging in elastic cords.

I'd recommend the silicone water tubing, at least near the pump to avoid vibrations. To stop kinks just use standard electrical wire cover threaded snuggly on to cover the places in danger. Comes in different sizes. Cheap, simple and effective.

If you use large or several radiators you can run the rad fans at very low rpm. This is a must because otherwise the radiator fins make the air whoosh.

The best thing about watercooling is that you can shut up your HDDs. If you plan to water cool your HDD(s) then remember the water needs to be kept a bit cooler. (Unless you were planning to overclock the processors and have them run cooler too.) This means that even a not-so-good CPU and GPU water block can do the job. The processors still keep well below 60 C if your water temp stays below 35-40 C; which it shall have to, if it is to cool HDDs. There is some debate about this but HDDs are normally thought best to keep below some 40-45 C.

If you plan to watercool lots of things then remember that the 1048 can't handle a big back pressure. Radiators and water blocks impedes flow. If your flow gets castrated my suggestion is to split the line in two or maybe even three parallell loops. This will get the flow going again. Be ready to use clamps because you want to be able to control how much water goes through each loop.

People sometimes will tell you that this or that thing is a must for a good water setup but keep in mind it might be true only if you want optimal high performance and NOT if your goal is a quiet system. As an example you surely have read that a high waterflow through the radiator is essential. Well, if airflow is high then the waterflow should be so too, or else the air cools the water halfway through the fins. Are you planning to use a high airflow fan then?

As a water tank you can use just about anything. I use a Nivea bath oil bottle turned upside down.


Last edited by snutten on Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:50 am 
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Quote:
People sometimes will tell you that this or that thing is a must for a good water setup but keep in mind it might be true only if you want optimal high performance and NOT if your goal is a quiet system. As an example you surely have read that waterflow through the radiator is essential. Well, if airflow is high then the waterflow should be so too, or else the air cools the water halfway through the fins. Are you planning to use a high airflow fan then?


Interesting.. So assuming I want to silence everything in my system (2 HDD, CPU, GPU, NB, PSU, eventually), will I come unstuck with my pump? I assume you can just sink up HDDs and chuck em in massive blocks of foam or rubber to shut them up.

What rad\s do you recommend? I'm running a Prescott, so it would be nice to keep it some degree of cool - currently idles at 55c with the zalman7000cu anyway :(

Is it worth going up to the Ehiem above the 1048? 1050 i think?

How do you suspend the pump best? I was thinking to hang it in my 5.5" bays as my lainli pc70 has stacks of room there?

On another note, I've got to say this forum is *fantastic*, I've never used better. Thanks guys!

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:06 am 
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the next step up from the 1048 is the 1250. another very popular pump, very good too. produces significantly more noise and vibration than the 1048 though. only go to this pump if the 1048 won't pump water through your loop, if you make an unnecessary upgrade then you'll have more dampening issues to deal with.

given that you're running a prescott i'd highly recommend a 2x120mm heatercore. don't accept anything less, you'll regret it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:32 am 
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Right, but I can't afford to buy the 1048 and then realise it doesn't do what I want it to do. I think since I've asked *so* many questions to the forum, it might be better to revise them to what I still don't quite grasp :)

Given that silence is my prioriity, but I also want cool running with no OC, and that my system is a 3gz prescott based one, in a lainli pc70, with the intention of first off leaving all but the psu fanless, blocking cpu, gpu and nb, meaning the noise generation is very low, from the HDD, PSU fan, pump and rad.
Eventually getting hold of a watercooled PSU (if my current PSU is inaudible, this isnt ness), and one or two HDD coolers so I can encase the drives in layers of something to get rid of all noise entirely is stage 2

How hard is it to dampen the pump? It seems my choice is 1048, 1250, or L30 hydor.

Will the pump be powerful enough to cool my end solution?

What rad do I need? Currently looking at either ThermoChill HE120.1 or the generic radiator from http://store.over-clock.com/Radiators.html, which fits in my case above (or below if required) the PSU

Anyone know of a better UK supplier than this? Can't find one that does any silcion tubing. Also, if anyone can be bothered, recommendations for exact waterblocks would be wicked! (though I don't want anyone to go to any trouble, I feel this forum has been more than extendedly helpful)

And the obvious idiot questions that I have to include in all my posts:

are the couplers\retainers\whatever the hell holds tube to block included with one of the parts?

How do you actually take the water back out when you need to play with stuff? Can you change cpu without draining?

What's the deal with the three-connector CPU heads? Do they have to have three tubes to em?

Cheers!

Dave (who's probably a moron)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:15 pm 
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No doubt the 1048 is powerful enough even if you cool lots of stuff. Super high water flow is important only for overclocking. Also, should you succeed with your intentions creating a really quiet cooling system you may find the pump becomes the noisiest part. More so if it's a big one. The 1250 makes more noise and vibrates more than the 1048.

Remember the rads must cope with more heat the more you add on the water line. If you want to cool CPU, GPU, 2xHDD, PSU and NB I'd say two 120mm rads (or one 2x120mm) constitute an absolute minimum. If you want it really quiet you are probably going to need at least 3x120mm and/or some sort of passive cooling help.

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... highlight=

I now run AMD2600+, Radeon9800 and WD Raptor on my water loop with two Papst 4412 @ 400rpm (almost 4V) on my rads.
I take the liberty of quoting myself from another thread:

snutten wrote:
The Ehiem 1048 has more than enough flow if the loop is open enough.
It performes poorly against back pressure. I used to cool HDD, CPU and GPU with just one loop and water flow was very slow. I have since made an extra loop leading water along copper plates along the outer walls of the case (the alu case becomes a heatsink), and split the other loop into two after the HDD cooler, which has low resistance.

This means water runs parallell along three loops:
HDD - CPU - Radiator 1
HDD - GPU - Radiator 2
Outer cooling loop

These loops each have better flow than the original single one. So the pump now pushes more than 3 times more water. This has made the pump vibrate less, and probably increased it´s lifetime.

Be warned though. If your computer really is sound-geek-quiet, the pump will be the biggest noisemaker, even if you get rid of the vibrations.
Speaking of vibrations; placing it on soft materials won´t do. Best is to suspend it hanging in elastic cords, just like people do with their HDD. Unless of course, you can mount it in an external box like Trodas.

Btw, trodas, does the pump get very warm that way? I´m thinking about covering mine in dampening materials but I´m worried it might overheat a little.


Last edited by snutten on Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:17 pm 
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I have the Hydor L30, and have been running it for about 2 months now. If it is suspended, it is extremely quiet. My pump is situated outside my case, and I can't hear it over my decoupled Seagate 7200.7 drive.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:04 pm 
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toiletduckuk wrote:
are the couplers\retainers\whatever the hell holds tube to block included with one of the parts?

How do you actually take the water back out when you need to play with stuff? Can you change cpu without draining?

What's the deal with the three-connector CPU heads? Do they have to have three tubes to em?


usually the "couples\retainers\whatever the hell" (we call them "clamps") are not included with the parts, you usually have to buy them separately. very popular are "worm gear" style clamps which you can get for about a buck each at home depot / bunnings / your local equivalent.

taking the water out is a bit tricky, the best way i've found is to hang one of the parts over a bucket, disconnect one of its tubes, and then turn the pump on so that it pushes all the fluid out and into the bucket. you won't need to drain the fluid just to change the cpu though, tubing is flexible enough that you can just unmount the cpu waterblock and leave it hanging while you change the cpu.

3-connector cpu heads (we call them "3-barb cpu waterblocks") generally have one inlet in the middle, and 2 outlets, one on either side of the inlet. what you do is connect the inlet as usual, and then take 2 short pieces of tubing and connect them to the outlets. then you connect these two to one end of a Y-piece, and your final outlet tube to the other end of the Y-piece.

this is generally done in an attempt to help the flow rate, however it is not to be used as a gauge for the performance of the waterblock. the best waterblock is the little river cascade which has 1 inlet and 1 outlet.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:16 pm 
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WELL HOWDY GUYS! Long time no spcr!

My god chylld youve been upto alot since ive been away, SWEET looking box! Im gonna go head over to that link after ive replied to this.

Well alot to answer too...

IMO get the eheim 1048, the 1250 will cause minor earthquakes so stay away from that. The 1048 is very quiet if decoupled properly, mine isnt decoupled/suspended and is just resting on some foam, from just over 1m it is inaudible. I have a friend with a 1250 and he elastically suspended it in his spare 5 1/2" bays, that surprisingly works VERY well hes not into silencing as much as i am. A word of advice, only watercool your cpu as watercooling other parts of your computer is unnecessary and if you do, other things will suffer such as temperatures and your ability to silence as effectively. The 1048 is plentily sufficient to cool very high performance + overclocked cpus QUIETLY (*ahem* me *ahem*)

From other peoples experiences and reviews ive read apparently the Hydor L30 is slightly quieter than the eheim 1048 but its flow is slightly lower (i dont know how much significance this would have on temps - depends on waterblock).

Oh yeah as were on the subject of waterblocks, dont get a high pressure waterblock as these are for:
A.) Hardcore overclockers wanting every last degree C they can and...
B.) People with powerful waterpumps (... yeah noisy ones! :()

er what else is there...
*scrolls up*

oh yeah the point about

[quote=chylld]firstly, if you're doing it for noise, then you're going to be disappointed. a finely tuned aircooled setup will, in my experience, be quieter than even a finely tuned watercooled setup. however, the watercooled setup will perform 10 degrees or more better, and that's where the advantage of watercooling is. [/quote]

erm i'd kinda have to disagree with that... chylld is very correct when he says the watercooled setup will perform XX degrees or more better... BUT i disagree when he says its not going to be quieter as you see... I had about a 15 deg C temperature drop when i originally switched to watercooling but instead of just having that 15 deg C temperature drops and a *kinda* quiet computer, i took that temperature drop and used it to my advantage by lowering the voltages to my radiator+case fans, THUS raising my cpu temps slightly BUT on the OTHER hand making my system FURTHER quieter. (I hope you all got that). The resulting, erm, result, is that i have temps that are around 8-9 deg better than a quiet air setup AND i have a quieter setup than a quiet air setup. So ive effectively balanced my system for the best of both worlds, silence AND good cooling.

in my system i used to have a heavily overclocked juhib 1700+ at xp3000+ speeds running 100% load 24/7 (folding) my temp stayed around 49 deg C or less and this is with all my fans including my 120mm radiator fan on 5V! and were talking a super crappy cheap 120mm fan too. on the upgrade list is a papst fan i should be able to run that at around 4-4.5V with similar temps and even more silence... not that i can hear my other fan...

chyllds advice is otherwise sound, and id agree with it all totally.

do not think of getting a watercooling radiator at all. everything from blackice wont give you good temperatures with anything less than a 120mm fan on 12V which is what were trying to avoid as the objective is a quiet computer. DEFINATELY get a heatercore like chylld says its the best and not only that its cheaper than a radiator.

if you browse other peoples watercooling setup that are hardcore silencers or overclockers you'll notice one thing, people RARELY use radiators, think about it ;) i wasted alot of money buying a radiator and regretted it.

reserviours: not needed but they can be handy, they look cool too. I personally dont use one because i dont have the space, im sure youve seen a pic of my setup, i crammed all my stuff into my little BQE.

tubing: yeah dont get anything less than 1/2" silicon is the standard but i tried clearflex (almost identical to tygon but cheaper) not too long ago and its alot better (alot more expensive too) - always buy more than you think you need because you'll need it! Its upto you what you choose, dont get standard tube though because rather than you deciding the layout of your watercooling system, your pipes will decide that for you and its always for the worse! they have a mind of their own!

oh yeah and about the push/pull thing, its been discussed alot by watercooling enthusiasts about which is better/worse, i noticed chylld reccomended a pull setup... i run a push setup just fine, its upto you really try them both, whichever works better for you will be fine. Ive tried both ways and i dont get any temperature difference at all, i just run a push because it works easier with my limited space...

er i think thats all for now, ive typed way too much and its late now. off to chylld's post!!!

Seal

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:38 pm 
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Right - Cheers for all the help guys :D

Quote:
do not think of getting a watercooling radiator at all. everything from blackice wont give you good temperatures with anything less than a 120mm fan on 12V which is what were trying to avoid as the objective is a quiet computer. DEFINATELY get a heatercore like chylld says its the best and not only that its cheaper than a radiator.


Right, heatercore it is. Can't fit one in my case that I can work out though so going for an external box now, with the pump boxed, suspended and dampened.

Is there a math to working out what will work where? Pressure and stuff is all a bit hit and miss for me, so I'm gonna present it here.

I'd be looking at the model up on the 1048, since an external box suspended and dampened should kill the extra noise.

I found a UK dealer that sells heatercores :D :D
Image

11" x 6 1/8" x 2", and a purchaseable shroud that i'd get.

For heads - which would be best for this setup? I think I'm gonna order all this tomorrow and leave you poor guys alone :D

My choice is pretty much limited to http://store.over-clock.com/copy_of_Waterblocks.html. If anyone can be bothered, recommendations would be wicked :D

(hopefully I'll learn enough to give something back to this community, heh)

Cheers

Dave[/img]


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:08 pm 
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from that page:

d-tek white water, hands down. even with low flow rates it'll outperform everything else there.

failing that, get a dangerden rbx.

also the swiftech mcw5002 might be a good buy for you since you plan on putting a lot of things in your loop - the swiftech is much more free-flowing than the other blocks and in fact has been tuned for low-flow performance. (still no match for the white water though)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 1:05 am 
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Just one note , having a high waterflow is really only important for overclocking.

However your Prescott is HOTTER than a severely overclocked Barton or Northwood...

And since you'll use a big rad , 3+ waterblocks and a lot of tubing (you're going external) , you will have a very restricting loop.

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Herolchi 69U6 --Tagan 480W
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:25 am 
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Hey! i got one of these!

http://store.over-clock.com/Generic.html

at the top, thats mine! PS. dont get the acrylic shroud off them because its useless, and is just literally a piece of 12-15mm acrylic with a hole in the middle which blocks out alot of the rad.

and about those high pressure waterblocks.... im really not sure if getting a high pressure waterblock will be better. I'd ask someone on procooling for a whitewater vs maze4 vs maze3 comparison for LOW flow setups. I hear maze 3 is supposed to outperform maze4's on low flow setups.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 3:18 am 
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Have to agree about the rads. I use two radiators, one from Innovatek and one Black Ice Extreme. They are clearly meant to be used with high powered fans because the fins are really narrow with a small airspace between them. Simply too constricting and the air whoshes even at low speeds. Especially the Black Ice.
My 4412s make these rads "whoosh" (when this air whoosh makes more noise than the fan hum itself) at around 4-5V.
Now, to be honest, I haven't tried out any good heatercores but from what I've seen on pictures I think you can get one allowing easier passing of air.

When I bought these expensive rads a long time ago I didn't know about SPCR and had to trust different overclocking sites. Blah...
Also have an extremely cramped case which limited my choices.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:48 am 
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Image

Courtesy of Procooling.com Reviews


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:27 am 
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Quote:
And since you'll use a big rad , 3+ waterblocks and a lot of tubing (you're going external) , you will have a very restricting loop


So I need a bigger pump than the 1048?

Quote:
However your Prescott is HOTTER than a severely overclocked Barton or Northwood...


From what I understand, it's also built to withstand these temps.. :/

And that graph... uh I don't know what's going on.

I think with enough mods my zalman psu will be silent... So basically; the loop has to be powerful enough to do pump --> 2x120mm heatercore (pic above) --> whatever three blocks i should use --> res --> pump - Does knowing that help? I'd like the potential to add a HDD cooler later as well...

Seal - where did you get your blocks? A full solution from www.over-clock.co.uk seems incredibly expensive; pushing for £300 nearly! Chylld assures me this is way overpriced on the rest of the worlds pricetags :/

Cheers

Dave[/quote]


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:52 am 
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The chart shows the temperature differential between incoming water and cpu , for different flowrates and blocks.

As you can see performance improves (differential decreases) as flowrate increases.

The Prescott can handle high temperatures.

However , when the water passes through each block , it's temperature increases.
So if the water goes cpu -> nb -> gpu , the water that goes through the gpu will be hotter than the water that goes through the cpu.
The lower the flow rate and the hotter the component -> bigger temperature increase.
So having a low flow rate and a very hot cpu , will mean you'll feed hot water to the nb and even hotter to the gpu.

Also , the pump depends on waterflow for it's own cooling (to cool the motor).
Pushing the pump too much will result in it overheating and producing more noise.

I'd say that for 4 blocks , the 1250 will be a wiser choise.

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CPU & NB Watercooled by 11 , Eheim , Thermochill


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:56 am 
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Yeah - the 1250 does seem like it leaves me less concerend. Just how hard is shutting it up? Also, is it not the same 1200l ph that the Hydor l30 is? I've heard that's silent when suspended; but is Ehiem still the wiser choice?

I'm gonna make a new post about silencing pumps I think :)

Cheers
Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:02 am 
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apocalypse80 wrote:
As you can see performance improves (differential decreases) as flowrate increases.


the thing the chart doesn't show, however, is the restriction introduced by each waterblock. you can't draw a vertical line and go "here's the performance i'll get with this and this waterblock", it's much more complicated than that, but out of the scope of this thread.

apocalypse80 wrote:
However , when the water passes through each block , it's temperature increases.
So if the water goes cpu -> nb -> gpu , the water that goes through the gpu will be hotter than the water that goes through the cpu.
The lower the flow rate and the hotter the component -> bigger temperature increase.
So having a low flow rate and a very hot cpu , will mean you'll feed hot water to the nb and even hotter to the gpu.


this is utterly false and is merely a misconception that's been floating around and fooling newbies.

with a decent flow rate (>3lpm) the temperature difference of water going into a waterblock and out of the same waterblock will be negligible, and for all practical purposes, zero. the water is simply flowing too fast for it to have its temperature changed significantly by the time it exits each waterblock. same goes with radiators: if you pass hot water through it, even if the radiator's being cooled by 2x120mm deltas it will still be warm/hot as it exits.

The key thing to remember is: the temperature differential throughout a decent watercooling loop is negligible and within a degree or two. hence, order of components does NOT matter, and efforts should be focused on well-routed tubing to avoid harms to the flow rate.

the only exception is the reservoir, which must be immediately before the pump.

apocalypse80 wrote:
Also , the pump depends on waterflow for it's own cooling (to cool the motor).
Pushing the pump too much will result in it overheating and producing more noise.


the waterflow through the motor does not really serve to cool the motor to any significant degree. if it did, then it'd essentially turn the pump into another waterblock, thus adding heat to the loop. the eheim pumps do not add a significant amount of heat to the loop and thus do not depend on waterflow for any significant amount of cooling.


sorry to slam your post so hard apocalypse80, but there were inconsistencies in your post that had to be sorted out before someone got misinformed.

edit: toiletduck, yes the 1250 is a good pump and a good choice. it is possible to damp it well and will be more than adequate for your needs.


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