Introducing my new watercooling design concept!

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed May 05, 2004 5:06 pm

heya guys,

i have a tendency of making overly long posts/threads, no doubt thanks to useless paragraphs like this one, so i'll try to keep things as short as possible.

i've been watercooling for 3 months now and i'm startled by how slow the watercooling industry is maturing. we have better products, yes, but what i am referring to are watercooling kits with enclosures.

there are a few, notably the corsair hydrocool, zalman reserator and thermaltake aquarius ("acrapius", i've heard it called) offerings but they all fall short on an important area: performance. i find this astounding because for significantly less money than any of these kits, you can build a watercooling system that will easily outperform them.

my aim is to design and produce a watercooling enclosure that kicks the crap out of all of the above, and more. it is going to be a no-holds-barred high performance watercooling rig that is user-friendly and is able to match or even better the DIY setups out there.

i choose to post this project in this forum only, as SPCR still stands out as a respectable forum with mature, sensible members. none of that teenage "you're wrong, i'm right, i'm better than you, go home" nonsense.

before i post details about my design thus far, i ask that any of you, especially those of you that don't watercool, to speak out and say what you think the system should do, how easy it should be to use and in general what you expect of such a system.

i am not pursuing this project as a company trying to make profit, but rather an enthusiast trying to give consumers a better product and hopefully to open up watercooling to a wider audience.

Goat_guy · Post by **Goat_guy** » Wed May 05, 2004 6:34 pm

Im new to WC'ing, and have some imput on what you are asking for:

1) Since this is SPCR, it needs to be quiet. Maybe an option to submerge the pump in a res. for further silencing?

2) It needs to be able to fit in all sorts of cases. I have a small case, and still want to be able to fit it in my case.

3) Delivers good performance for a given amount of silence. I dont would hope that a silent WC solution would provide equal or better cooling of todays top air cooling (SP97,SLK900,ect). Not stock heatsink results.

4) A package that makes sense. Dont include items that really dont make sense to have.

5) PICTURES! For a n00b to WC'ing, pictures are worth a million words! A picture by picture expination of the installation would be great!

6) A choice (recommendation) of radiators. Again, some people may not have room for a 2x 120mm rad. I myself only have room for a 1x 120mm rad...and my quest continues.

Brian

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 05, 2004 6:35 pm

Idiot-proofing is probably one of the big sources/problems with watercooling. This was one thing that wasn't well addressed IMHO with my fears post. All the replies more or less boiled down to "Don't be an idiot." Little do all of you realize, I have too many Homer Simpson moments and it only takes one such moment to take out an expensive system. ("D'oh") So a good piping/tubing system that's foolproof for leaks would be good/idea (or at least fool proof assuming they follow the proper instructions).

Second is the space/casemod problem. Most people don't have the space inside their case for a watercooling system. Heck, a lot of people don't have much space OUTSIDE their case for a W/C system. I know that space under my desk is fairly limited. Which brings me to the case mod part. Most people are DEFINITELY not fans of case modding, and there aren't too many ways of getting a W/C system outside a case without case modding. I can think of ways to circumvent that if you want my thoughts, but that is another issue to consider.

Good maintenance instructions would also be good too. Right now, I think I have the skills to set up and build a W/C system, but I'm not sure how I'd go about removing water from a system should I ever want to upgrade my computer.

Thats all I can think off right off the top of my head that's non-specific to me. Hope this post helps you in your goal.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed May 05, 2004 7:08 pm

thanks for your thoughts guys! they are indeed very valuable points that i somehow managed to skimp over in my design notes.

Goat_guy: yes it will be quiet, that is a major priority i failed to point out. silent, if possible. silence will take top priority alongside performance, hopefully i'll be able to pull it off well enough to shut those people up who think that silence and performance are incompatible. and being top performance, it'll outperform any natural aircooling setup.

there definitely won't be any junk in the system, extra components add restriction to the loop and that's not something i'm willing to compromise.

pictures: i can't really draw but i think i can find someone who can

even better - i'll get someone else to draw the pictures for me, they'll probably end up drawing better pictures since they're approaching it from a newbie/customer perspective, as opposed to a design perspective.

sthayashi: it will be very idiot-proof, my aim is to enable even my mum to install it (and she barely knows how to work a screwdriver). quietness in spcr often brings up the topic of the "wife test" - this one will bring up the "mum test".

maintenance is a tricky thing to tackle, i've yet to solve that problem.

now, regarding space: in the past i've designed systems that occupy 5 1/4" drive bays only, but the fundamental flaw with this approach is the limited amount of fresh air that can be pulled through the front. so i ruled this option out a while ago.

what i am aiming for in this system is an external unit similar to the corsair hydrocool that sits on/beside the computer and feeds coolant into the computer via a pci slot. the tricky thing is, being a high performance system, 1/2" ID tubing is going to be mandatory throughout - and the width of each pci slot is just short of 1/2". for tubing with outer diameters approaching 3/4" and higher, getting coolalnt into/out of the system is a big challenge.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 05, 2004 7:46 pm

chylld wrote:it will be very idiot-proof, my aim is to enable even my mum to install it (and she barely knows how to work a screwdriver). quietness in spcr often brings up the topic of the "wife test" - this one will bring up the "mum test".

maintenance is a tricky thing to tackle, i've yet to solve that problem.

now, regarding space: in the past i've designed systems that occupy 5 1/4" drive bays only, but the fundamental flaw with this approach is the limited amount of fresh air that can be pulled through the front. so i ruled this option out a while ago.

what i am aiming for in this system is an external unit similar to the corsair hydrocool that sits on/beside the computer and feeds coolant into the computer via a pci slot. the tricky thing is, being a high performance system, 1/2" ID tubing is going to be mandatory throughout - and the width of each pci slot is just short of 1/2". for tubing with outer diameters approaching 3/4" and higher, getting coolalnt into/out of the system is a big challenge.

Passing the mum test? That could be hard.

Maintenance should be relatively simple. Much like a car, one should do things periodically, like flush the system.

As I mentioned before, I've given some thought about piping water out of a system, and I think that the PCI slot is the best way to go. Most people have a free PCI slot, especially with the many peripherals being placed on board (like sound & network). And just as many peripherals are being put on external busses like USB or Firewire.

My thought/idea was to take 1/2" tubing and split it into 2 3/8" tubing or 4 1/4" tubing and running them in parallel out the PCI slot, and then having them reconnected. Also, by using a PCI slot, you could have a card that would act as a relay for the pump.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed May 05, 2004 8:21 pm

hmm having a relay is something i'm not totally sure of yet.

what i plan to do is to have IEC power plugs at the back of the unit, one male, one female. the computer's existing power cord gets unplugged from the computer and plugged into the unit, and then a provided male-female IEC cord connects the unit to the computer. this way the computer will never receive power unless the unit receives power.

so, using this setup, instead of using a traditional 12v relay (which unnecessarily takes up another molex connector and adds to the cable mess) i could have a little circuit inside the box that detects when the computer is drawing power, and only then does it turn the pump on.

what do u think of that idea?

also, with the pci slot things - i was thinking something similar but instead of many smaller tubes, i'd have big flat tubes. this would be something i'd have to manufacture myself but it's a neater option than several y-fittings and associated clamps which could look messy, inside the case and out.

afrost · Post by **afrost** » Wed May 05, 2004 8:45 pm

if you split to parallel lines through the pci slot and back to single 1/2" then you wouldn't have the flow restriction problem. can you fit four lines in the pci slot space?

or what if you came up with a custom brass connector that has 1/2" in and out but goes to a flatish piece that takes up half the pci slot. that way you could still have the "ID" for flow but it would just be flattened out.

does that make sense?

oh duh i just read above and you already covered this.....

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:18 pm

Chylld, now THAT is clever. Both the IEC bypass idea AND the flat tubing. Although I'm inclined to suggest an override for the external box so that the pump can be turned on without the computer being on. For some reason, I think being able to use the pump without turning on the computer may be useful (but I don't know for sure since I'm a W/C n00b).

One more thought that may very well break your target goals. Video card water cooling is becoming more and more of a necessity. All aftermarket heatsink/coolers require the use of the second PCI slot. Would it be possible to incorporate that particular PCI slot for water I/O as well as Videocard watercooling? I know video card cooling modification is NOT an idiot-proof task, but this could be a way of making things very elegant and efficient.

I do have to say that your ideas are really cutting your work out for you. But if you manage to successfully implement this well, I'd be happy to purchase this system (assuming it doesn't break the bank).

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:29 pm

afrost: lol

don't worry though, if you have any ideas at all (even the simplest ones) just blurt them out. i'm not going to flame you for being an idiot, this is a brainstorming thread and as such benefits from everyone's ideas.

not to say that i think you're stupid or anything

sthayashi: yes i thought about the relay switch as well. i plan to have 2 'important' switches on the unit - one for on/off (which controls power to the computer as well) and another for relay on/off, called something like "continuous mode". when on, the pump is on whenever it is receiving power, in off mode, it only powers the pump when the computer is drawing power.

this could be potentially iffy and even dangerous to develop and test, due to the fact that it's mains power that we're talking about now.

video card watercooling is very tricky, because the barbs are often pointed away from the motherboard which leaves no nice tube route to the pci plate where the hose needs to be attached. i could design the gpu block such that a barb faces the pci plate but that would make removal of the card impossible without taking the waterblock off first. a big loop would be uglier but would allow the card to be taken out.

thanks for your support, it's really encouraging to know someone's helping me think

pdf27 · Post by **pdf27** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:58 pm

For the external box, are you thinking something along the lines of the Prometia boxes where the computer is to stand on the box? If so, it would be a very neat solution but filling/bleeding the system would be a pain.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:49 am

no i don't plan to have it so that you can put it under the case. that'd require strengthening the enclosure significantly and is an effort i would rather skip.

maintenance is a hard thing to take care of, it is tempting to simply use a 3-tap system but that hurts performance so i'll skip it. i plan to manufacture the res so along the way i'll be incorporating some method to easily flush the system.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:56 am

Another question/issue I have is something that would definitely screw up idiot-proofness. Upgradeability/expansion. Are you planning on having just one setup for all, or parts that can be picked and chosen?

For example: As a dualie nut, I may very well need more than one CPU waterblock, since I don't like the idea of doing something to one heatsink and not the other. But I'm positive that your package will not include a second waterblock.

A better example would be that as processors advance and seem to follow the "hotter is better" tread, the need may arise for better and more powerful radiators. Would upgrading the radiators be feasible in your design?

Finally, I worry slightly about making it too simple. Chances are, your mum will never think about replacing her heatsink, so there is little need to have something that simple. But it should be simple enough so that anyone who can put together a computer given the parts should be able use it without needing to do lengthy leak tests.

dukla2000 · Post by **dukla2000** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:06 am

OK - I am an air-cooler who expects one day to move to water, just like cars did. My thoughts:

1) Very quiet - goes without saying.
2) Based on budget I figure on getting wet with my existing socket-A/Athlon, but want to be able to migrate the cooling system to my A-64 (socket 734 or 939 or ...) when I get it!
3) My reading of existing kits is similar to other opinions here: I will be lucky to beat my existing air (SLK800a) setup. Not only that, but the desirable features for water (1/2" pipes, 12cm fans/radiators, fan-radiator duct, eheim 1048 pump) are not available in a reasonably priced kit.
4) By the time I get my A-64 I may actually go SFF: for that reason a 5 1/4" bay solution will miss my basket. I have a feeling the way to go is a system (fan & radiator at least) that bolts on the rear of the case using existing 80mm or 120mm case fan mounts. Personally all my fan grills vanish within 1 hour of buying a case so pipes could go through the hole as well, but others without suitable cutters may not like this idea.
5) At least for starters take the decision for me what the hell liquid I need in the pipes! e.g. Customer supplies +-x ml deionised/distilled/??? water, add y ml from bottle A (supplied) to this. (And tell me whats in bottle A.)
6) Convince me in the installation instructions I am not going to have problems with the waterblock being poorly seated on the CPU. (And BTW my socket-A mobo does not have hs mount holes so mounts that use 2*3 lugs are preferred. My A-64 mobo could be anything!)

Goat_guy · Post by **Goat_guy** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:49 am

I wouldnt havea problem dremeling a small indent in a PCI slot to fit 1\2" tubing.... but then again this is mum proof

Brian

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Thu May 06, 2004 3:54 pm

Goat_guy wrote:I wouldnt havea problem dremeling a small indent in a PCI slot to fit 1\2" tubing.... but then again this is mum proof

That's something I'M not terribly comfortable doing. Especially in anything called a kit. I don't think any kit should require a tool more complicated than a screwdriver or a wrench (Spanner?). And ideally, the kit should come with a cheap wrench (obviously since Chylld is covering the R&D costs here, that may be unfeasible, but if this were to become a commercially viable product, then a wrench might not be a bad idea.

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Thu May 06, 2004 4:05 pm

thanks for your replies again!

sthayashi: most of the system will not be upgradable due to the fact that the best components will be used right from the very start. the only component i may offer an upgrade for would be the pump (from an eheim 1048 to an eheim 1250), but i'm thinking of just offering the eheim 1250 straight off. i am very inclined to do so however i do not have the dimensions for the 1250

i will offer the package as a unit as well as a unit + cpu/gpu blocks, i.e. the blocks will be an option and you can buy as many of them as you want

upgrading the radiator will probably not be possible as the enclosure will be built quite 'around' it (being the biggest component). i did a lot of design work yesterday and it turns out that a lot of the internal design is dependent upon the radiator, especially with respect to airflow management. also, the radiator i plan on using is about the same size as a black ice extreme 2 so it should be sufficient for most applications.

thanks for your comments again sthayashi, your input is becoming quite valuable.

dukla2000: the cpu block will be able to be mounted on all processors types. i plan to make mounting plates for p4, a64 and k7 platforms, that's easy. maybe also a socket lug system for k7. the tricky thing is optimising the internal waterblock design to cater for the different core sizes. sounds fiddly, but it's critical for high performance.

i intend to use a pci slot for coolant in/out, so any computer with a spare pci slot bracket should be able to use it. might need to get a little inventive with the tube routing, but yeh

i definitely won't be using a 5 1/4" bay solution.

coolant: i'll provide that most likely, in concentrate form. but really, you can use almost any radiator coolant since it shares many similarities with a car engine's cooling loop.

the kit won't require any case modifications whatsoever. if i was to follow the casemod path then it'd be too easy, i'm up for a challenge here!

also, it's a bit ridiculous having to take a drill to a case. and not to mention, dangerous for people who don't know what they're doing (and consequently either hurt themselves or leave metal shavings inside the case...)

edit: yes i will probably include all the necessary tools as well. a little allen key for the waterblocks and a little phillips head screwdriver for installation. these are small things that i'd be happy to throw in

Goat_guy · Post by **Goat_guy** » Thu May 06, 2004 4:52 pm

What are you looking for as for pricing? And for the external box, are you going to provide plans for those who choose to make the box themselves?

Brian

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Thu May 06, 2004 5:02 pm

pricing won't be finalised for a while, but i'm aiming for a price not too much higher than the corsair hydrocool. i'm not in this for a huge profit, the market is too small for that kind of thing. i just want to bring a great product to the market and help people realise that watercooling isn't always a compromise.

the internals ofthe system are getting more and more detailed so i'm inclined to keep hush-hush about it for now. before i release the design for review / testing, i may or may not put out for a patent or three. my legal advisor recommends that i do this, but i want to keep it as 'open source' as possible whilst still maintaining some element of surprise

Copper · Post by **Copper** » Fri May 07, 2004 8:14 am

It's probably already been mentioned, but basically follow the new Reserator's theme: Bury the pump so it's quiet (hopefully inaudible) and design the resevour in such a way that is can passively cool, eliminating the need for fans.

For me at least, the only appeal a watercooling system would have is an ability cool a performance system without noise. Not just quiet, but without noise - inaudible. Barring that, I'd stay underclocked and passive.

luminous · Post by **luminous** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:36 pm

I've been thinking about watercooling, and am a definite n00b to it all. I suppose I would be the kind of buyer you would be targeting.

I really like the Zalman reserator. I know it does not perform all that well (which is why I won't buy it), but the concept behind it is something that I like.

If you are going to have elements of the kit external to the system then looks will be really important. The market that you are targeting responds well to "cool" designs, just look at the response the Zalman has got.

I would definitely like to turn my PC on with its normal power button, and your kit come on line at the same time. The option to run the kit by itself is something that I would call essential, just to check it runs without leaks.

Another option that you could look into, is to offer alternative liquids to water. I have heard of things like perflurocarbon (if that's how its spelt). I realise that its expense, but some people may choose to go down that route (probably including me).

From another thread I have started in the w/c section, you may consider offering your kit installed into a case already. You could pick a good SPCR case and then modify it to accept your kit in any way you want. That way you can really help "idiot proof" your product as buyers only need to screw in a few components before powering on.

...I think I suffer from the tendency to write too much as well.....oh well...here comes some more - I hope you are still reading.

Some form of flow indicator would be essential to me as well. This is especially necessary given the ikely inaudible natural of your kit. It does not need to be anything fancy, just something that can not only inform you of a cooling system failure, but also shutdown the system.

GPU cooling is essential, its just too much money and hassle to go to without sorting out the GPU. Newer and hotter GPU's are on the way, without proper attention these are going to be the noisiest parts of a PC.

I know I'm starting to add to the complexiity of the kit, but if it performs right, and also looks right, then circa £300 would be OK, preferably £250.

P.S. I'm not ready to watercool this machine. My next machine will be liquid cooled. I will probably build it at the end of this year/early next.

EDIT: You could offer one thing that no other kit has done so far. Incorporate some form of temperature sensors into the blocks. Doing that really depends on how custom you are prepared to go. Offering a calibrated sensor as close to the CPU die as possible is something no-one else offers atm (I think).

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri May 07, 2004 3:07 pm

Copper wrote:It's probably already been mentioned, but basically follow the new Reserator's theme: Bury the pump so it's quiet (hopefully inaudible) and design the resevour in such a way that is can passively cool, eliminating the need for fans.

For me at least, the only appeal a watercooling system would have is an ability cool a performance system without noise. Not just quiet, but without noise - inaudible. Barring that, I'd stay underclocked and passive.

The problem with the reserator is that it is not a high performance product. High performance requires active cooling of the radiator. My aim is to produce a kit that offers this high level of performance with a minimal amount of noise - my current radiator box serves well as a proof of concept in regard to this matter. So to put it short, yes it will have fans but it'll be near-silent. (adjustable fan speed of course).

luminous: looks are indeed something i'll have to look into. at the moment i'm still concentrating on getting the internal layout right, and the supporting frame so that you can pick it up without everything falling apart. I'll add aesthetics on later

the unit will have a switch of some sort that enables 'relay' mode, and that'll result in teh unit turning on only when your computer is on. there'll also be a 'force-on' mode for leaktesting / flushing etc.

alternatives to water are interesting things to look at, but for the moment are out of the scope of my project. you can put pretty much any radiator coolant / antifreeze/boil / corrosion inhibitant into the loop and it should run fine. i will probably include an amount of concentrate with the kit though, although that depends on licensing issues.

i'm designing the kit so that it'll take advantage of a pci slot, thus any computer with a spare pci slot (even a sff shuttle, for instance) will be able to accept the kit. a lot of computer users have individual tastes when it comes to cases, and i don't want to 'force' a case design onto them. my kit will work with whatever they get. (within reason ehhe

)

there will be a flow indicator and an alarm system. the trick is to make one that does not hurt the flow rate, like the one with the red propeller. i have some ideas on this but they'll require a lot of r&d.

i'm looking to make a gpu block as well. it is very different to a cpu block, because of the way they are orientated in the case. nonetheless, it is a challenge i'm looking forward to. something like zalman's new gpu waterblock is what i'm aiming for.

price-wise: i do not intend to make anymore than £50 profit on a single kit. probably nowhere near that much. just enough to cover r&d costs for this kit and future developments of the kit is fine. currently i'm aiming to sell the kit for under £250.

re incorporating a thermal sensor into the waterblock - this is something i'm sorry to say is not possible. the design of the waterblock is looking to be too complex to allow space for such a sensor. i plan on letting users use their usual on-die thermal sensors which are more accurate. i will have a water temp sensor though.

and don't be afraid to write more - the more input the better

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Fri May 07, 2004 4:28 pm

1. IMHO an external case is a turn off. I would rather have a box with everything built in, even if that makes the box need to be bigger... If I were designing something from scratch, I'd maybe put the rad flat (or maybe angled) on the bottom with air sucking in from the bottom back, getting pulled through the rad, and blown out the top rear. Put a more or less standard mini or midi tower layout above. This lets you have a sealed front and a neat package. (maybe mount the HDD's on their sides so air can pass between them for cooling?)
2. The problem with the flat PCI pass through is that you will need to have a bulge on each end where the tube goes back to being round again. I know it's a mod, but how about knocking out the dividers between two adjacent slots?
3. Hopefully you'll be using a heater core design, preferably with a single pass configuration.
4. Presumably all Cu/brass or plastic, no mixed metals!

Gooserider

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri May 07, 2004 5:01 pm

hi goose,

something with everything built-in would be ideal, but i want this to be useable by everyone. also, you can only draw so much air through the bottom back of a case - with an external box you can have an entire side of the radiator exposed to fresh air.

the flat pci passthrough is going to be tough to design, yes - it might turn out to be a whole project in itself. knocking out the dividers between adjacent slots is not an option. i know it's easy to do (i've done it to my own case already) but i feel it compromises on user-friendliness and ease of installation too much.

it'll be a dual-pass heatercore. i've thought about using a single-pass one but there's a greater chance of air pocket problems with them, so i ruled them out.

i definitely won't be mixing metals

it'll be all cu and brass and polycarbonate/plastic.

Copper · Post by **Copper** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:04 pm

chylld wrote:High performance requires active cooling of the radiator.

Have you done the math to support your statement? A radiator simular to the above, containing stacked fin tubes whose fins are all alligned so as to create dozens of unobstructed channels the full height of the chamber, would maximize convection. Surely such a design would disipate a couple hundred watts of heat? Or wouldn't it?

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:37 pm

i saw a heatercore a bit like that one on the shelf at the radiator repair place (sans pump of course.) i think the problem with that is you'll only get so much fresh air into the fin tube chamber/core due to the small cross-sectional surface area at the bottom (which is where i presume air will come in).

i haven't done the math as i'm actually pretty dumb, but general feeling tells me that a fan-cooled traditional heatercore will perform much better than that.

if i was going to run passive i'd probably get a traditional heatercore and lay it horizontally, essentially like your diagram but much wider, deeper and shorter. that's actually the basis for my 2nd watercooling box design, but i don't have time to pursue it so i've skipped to this 3rd one, which will be actively cooled.

Copper · Post by **Copper** » Fri May 07, 2004 7:15 pm

chylld wrote:i haven't done the math as i'm actually pretty dumb, but general feeling tells me that a fan-cooled traditional heatercore will perform much better than that.

I have no doubt that active cooling will out perform passive convection on a cost/btu basis. It's also no doubt the reason we primarily see active cooling systems. It's surely just more financially practical to make today's systems quiet than it is to make them silent given the large amounts of heat that needs to be dissipated.

In the end both have only one real limitation - ambient.

ps, it would take me a week just to sort out the formulas needed to calculate the btu's a system like the above would dissipate. Then another week to learn how to spell dissipate.

Seal · Post by **Seal** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:34 am

Wuhoo im back! I really should visit here more often so i dont have to do as much catching up at a time! Anyway yeah i definately agree that there arent any good watercooling kit systems availiable at all, even with self build kits such as innovateks effort. (arent you glad i talked you out of buying a kit!)

Anyway good idea, im not sure about pumps usually for processors 1048 is plenty enough, but for processor and gpu 1250 is standard. I think the 1250 alone is a little OTT for just a processor. For watercooling noobs, the first time is daunting so i think if you make it as simple and straightfowrard enough then it should be successfull.

I was wandering, how is the tubing system going to work? I was thinking more of how are the tubes going to enter the case? A little modding?

uh oh brb gota go out, ill finish this post later

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Sat May 08, 2004 3:34 pm

welcome back seal!

yeh i want to use a 1250 but it compromises on the silence factor

also, it's HUGE! it forces me to make the enclosure bigger than it already is. it's already looking to be 35cm long x 20cm wide x 16cm high, while althouh fitting nicely on top of a regular tower case, is definitely "big enough". so i'm planning to use a 1048. the hydor l30 seems to be a nice alternative to the 1250 but i need to research it's reliability and noisyness.

the kit will not require any mods, that is one of my main design goals. it looks like i'm going to have to manufacture a special pci bracket that allows 1/2" ID tube waterflow to go through without too much restriction.

i'm looking forward to hearing more from you

Michael_qrt · Post by **Michael_qrt** » Sun May 09, 2004 4:07 am

Hi guys,

I personally have never tried water cooling and I'm into silent, high performance computing, so I guess that makes me part of the target market.

Anyway I thought I might just express some ideas as to why I havn't tried water cooling before. The first thing I would say about it is that it's not because I find the idea of water cooling daunting. In fact I would probably enjoy setting a WC system up. The reasons I havn't gotten involved with WC are, cost, time involved in setup and maintainence, possibility of little to no gain in quietness and the loss of system portability.

Now of course you're trying to tackle some of these issues which is great to see. In fact perhaps I'm not that representative of the target market as although I like to get a bit of "free" performance out of overclocking I'm the type who takes a 2500+ to 3200+ speeds, not to 2.5ghz or more. So I'm not an extreme overclocker by any means, and I'm cost concious. Having said that I think I could quite easily get into water cooling if I let myself.

Of the other issues I mentioned portability isn't going to be easy to tackle because you're probably going to have to disconnect the tubing between the computer and cooling unit to move the thing. Another problem, which is admittedly outside the product brief, is that many users will have loud PSUs and HDDs and the HDD is probably the limiting noise factor in many very quiet computers.

What I'd really like to see on the market is a complete case with a built in WC unit that makes no compromise on performance or quietness. The WC unit could be very similar to an external unit such as you are proposing but built into the top of the case. I know this is a much larger project than the already very large one you are looking at but I can't help but be attracted by a complete approach to both cooling performance and silence. It would allow features such as a PSU fresh air duct (not as important with WC but with other heat sources in the case it could still make a difference), inclusion of a quiet PSU as an option, possibility of designing a HDD quietening mechanism such as having the entire HDD cage soft mounted and removable (so it could be suspended if desired) and another advantage I can see is shorter pipe lengths.

With the setup of the WC unit at the top of the case you could also create a system that has water flow assisted by convection. It would be a small effect for sure in a forced flow setup but it's better to have it working for you than against, and a while back I saw a link showing how some guy had cooled his processor entirely passively using convection to move water through a loop with a passive radiator.

Anyway maybe that's something for you to think about if you're successful with this project. And I hope you are successful because from what I've read there is a gap in the WC market between high performance custom systems and complete packages in terms of performance and/or noise. If you could create a product better than those offered currently then that can only be good for quiet performance computing.

Anyway, just a final question, are you planning on designing and building your own waterblocks? From what you've said I get the impression you will be along with the radiator but I'm not sure.

Good luck, and I hope you've gotten *something* out of my long winded post.

eniacs · Post by **eniacs** » Sun May 09, 2004 6:24 am

Im not sure you can commercially make this system for under £250, it all sounds very fancy and too many parts of the system and then you throw in the neccesity that it must be installed by your mum (no offense maybe your mum is more computer literate than mine!) i know my mum couldnt open a pc case let alone install water blocks on delicate static sensitive components.

Im all for the idea of a cheaper high performance system. if you made a simple wooden box this maybe be viable, or replace the front of a mini itx box.

As for the switching the pump on with a power detector, im an electronic engineer and i can tell you this circuit is incredibly simple and you could do this very easily and it will work extremely effectively. it would be a single sense resistor, one transistor one comparitor and a relay, very simple.

My watercooling setup is totally passive (no fans but one pump) and cost me 65 to build so you will have to make a good system to beat the home built systems!