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 Post subject: Help with and discuss my project
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
Posts: 55
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
[edit: diagrams and project log 17 posts down]

First let me explain that after a lot of thought, I've decided that my priorities are as follows:

1) Performance
2) Silence*
3) Looks

IN THAT ORDER. It was hard for me to rank Performance above silence*, but finally I realized that that did mean a bit more to me.

BUT! NearSilence is soooo important to me also. I'm going to use the spinpoints, I'm going to suspend them, I'm only using 7volted Panaflos, I changed the one out in my PSU (which is a noisetaker that I bought for it's low noise).

It came down to the pump before I actually had to make a "What means more, silence or performance" kinda decision. And I made it, the 1048 just isn't going to be enough--I am going to use 3 waterblocks (and I know, I know, don't put one on the northbridge because blah blah blah--well, I'm putting a block on the NB so please let any advice you give me take that as something I am not going to change my mind about--I may just overclock it that much!).

Let me shut up and actually spit out what I'm trying to say--I am worried about the Eheim 1250 being too loud, does anyone here use one and if so, what kind of realistic expectations should I have with regard to noise and is there any full proof way to (nearly) silence these things? Suspension? Foam? Dampening plates? Because I need something with a little more umph than the 1048, is the 1250 the pump that should be at the top of my short list? What about the Swiftech pump? I want to know the quietest solution to my scenario given that I want a more powerful pump and any help you all can provide me will be deeply appreciated.

[edit: * when I say silence, I mean as close to silence as I can get and I am aware that I am not going to have true silence]

[edit: topic]


Last edited by caxis0 on Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Posts: 1413
Location: Sydney, Australia
well, here's my advice.

the 1048 is perfectly adequate for 2 blocks (like i'm running it with now) and the nb block will be a very simple affair, i.e. essentially a reservoir with 2 holes in the top. the nb does not need more serious cooling than this, so adding an nb block to the loop won't harm things at all.

also, if you upgrade from a 1048 to a 1250, the real-world flow rate will only improve by about 10-25% (from all the tests i've seen.) even with flow-rate dependent blocks (i.e. impingement blocks) you're only going to see a slight (perhaps 0.01c/w, most probably less) improvement in performance which equates to a <1C performance increase on even a 100W cpu. and when you add the extra pump heat into the equation...

that said, you can help the performance a little and improve the vibration/silence of the 1048 by doing the popular "eheim mod" which essentially involves wrapping a few rounds of teflon tape around the impeller shaft to stop the impeller from 'slipping'. this is a safety feature designed into the eheims to help it cope with gravel and gunk and all sorts of crap commonly found in aquarium setups, but NOT in watercooling setups.

the 1250 is quiet but is still audible, unless you do some serious dampening/boxing to it. i'm not entirely sure to what extent the 1250 needs to be dampened for it to be considered as 'spcr-quiet', but what i do know is that it does require effort which, when taking into account what i've said above about the (marginal) performance gains, makes the 1048 seem like not so bad a proposition again.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:16 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Greece
I have a 1250.
I agree with chylld's remarks about 20-25% better flow than 1048 , it is also significantly louder , hotter and more expensive.
But , in my experience the temperature difference is more like 3-4°C (with a 100-120W cpu) , so around 0.03C/W.
That is , considering that you have a radiator powerful enough to not be significantly affected by the +20Watts of the pump.

I've created an "armchair" of 3cm thick foam for it to sit in + very soft tubing + it is inside the PC case , so I find it inaudible with the PC running , I just can't hear it over a 5Volted Papst 4412FGL (very quiet).
However , I can hear it when the PC is off , when closer than 30cm from the case.

It depends on your priorities.

The swiftech (mcp-600?) is supposed to be significantly more powerful than the 1250 (more pressure) , but I don't know about it's noise.

_________________
watercooled for silence
Abit NF7-S v2.0--mobile 2500+@11.5x220=2530, 1.9V
2x256 PC3200 Kingston BH-5,2-2-2-11,3V
Herolchi 69U6 --Tagan 480W
CPU & NB Watercooled by 11 , Eheim , Thermochill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
Posts: 55
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Thankyou for the responses, I appreciate it very much.

My rad is a single top mounted BIX (I know, I know... heatercores) with a 120x38mm panaflo low speed and a shroud. All of the WC components are going to be contained within the case.

Assuming I did still use the 1048, what would be the ideal block choice for the CPU? I was thinking of using the copper TDX and a maze 4 on the NB, could I get better performance with other blocks?

[edit: I'm a little green when it comes to which blocks are impingment blocks and which are not]

[edit 2: Given that this is SPCR, it would be so cool if we had a ranking of the most quiet pumps available.]

Thankyou,
Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
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Location: Sydney, Australia
the tdx is one of the best blocks on the market, i recommend it. a maze 4 on the nb is a bit of overkill, something like the swiftech mcw20 would be less restrictive.

the tdx is an impingement block because the incoming water is projected downwards onto the 'business' area of the base, and relies on the resulting stagnant area/turbulence to maximise heat transfer. an example of a non-impingement block would be the maze 4 (as water simply flows 'across' the block, not hitting down hard onto the part of the base directly above the heat source)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Thankyou so much, I finally understand. It was such a simple question, I was just so hesitant to ask anywhere because it seemed like something that some reasearch could help me figure out, but everything I read just took for granted that the reader knew that already. I definitely didn't want to bust up on procooling.com and ask something like that! It's good to feel comfortable here.

(They say the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask, but many forums I have visited prove that statement false)

I am going to use 1/2" Tygon tubing and thus the blocks I chose must have changable barbs or come in that size to begin with so I'm not sure the swiftech chipset cooling block would work for me. Do you have any other suggestions?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:16 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Greece
Most waterblocks are fitted with 1/2" barbs.
I believe that swiftech makes adapters for 1/2" ID tubing (I remember seeing something like that in their site).

_________________
watercooled for silence
Abit NF7-S v2.0--mobile 2500+@11.5x220=2530, 1.9V
2x256 PC3200 Kingston BH-5,2-2-2-11,3V
Herolchi 69U6 --Tagan 480W
CPU & NB Watercooled by 11 , Eheim , Thermochill


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
Posts: 55
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
barbs for 1/2 ID tubing is what I mean, and while many blocks do come stock with those barbs, just as many come with 3/8 ID compatible barbs. I'd rather not use adapters if I can avoid it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:08 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Oklahoma
Considering that you're set on using a single BIX, go ahead and use the 1048 pump. The temp difference won't justify the challenges of using the 1250 (currently used in my rig#1). Your setup will be rad limited. If the resulting temps/performance isn't good enough, find a way to put another radiator/fan in the water loop. More rad will definitely help your setup and yes, a heatercore would be a great exchange for the BIX.

As far as tubing size, I'd start with 3/8ID 1/2OD and test the performance. Use swiftech coolsleeves to control tube kinking for tight bends; with 3 blocks you'll be making tight bends. 3/8ID will slip over 1/2OD barbs and route oh so much easier. You can always replace the tubing with 1/2ID later.

JMHO

_________________
rig #1 Watercooled XP2500 @ 2.5GHz, Nforce2-400, watercooled 9700 Pro (370/330), Seagate 120GB, Antec SLK3700 & PSU
rig #2 Aeroflow cooled XP2500 @ 2.3GHz, Nforce2 IGP, 9700 Pro (405/370), Seagate 80Mb, Enlight mid-tower & PSU
6.5 GHz Folding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Posts: 1413
Location: Sydney, Australia
ur right, the swiftech comes with push-in fittings for 1/2" OD tubing, as does the mcw50 and mcw5000. the adapters apocalypse80 refers to look like this:

Image

i use these with my mcw50 and they work great. a bit expensive, but not a waste of money at all.

as for being afraid to post on forums; don't. it's a quick way to find out which forums are friendlier and which are a little more hostile. i think, like me, you'll tend to find that the SPCR bunch are much more mature and down-to-earth, after all that is what a forum is for. people don't post in forums in search of a mechanical, straight-off answer, they want human intelligence and feedback. (something that unfortunately takes a back seat to pride and ego in many other forums.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
Posts: 55
Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Oh, I don't mind a hostile forum (I'll show people what hostile really means--I have a bit of pride myself, I just try and save it up for when it's really needed), I just don't want to be the one to spam things up with stupid questions that I can find the answers to with minimal effort.

At work, I have quite a bit of time to research and read forums, I typically read here, overclockersclub, pimprig, procooling, and some of arstechnica, overclockers australia, and hardocp (and a couple of other non tech message boards). That said, I really enjoy comming here more than most of the others. Most all of the discussion here is refreshingly courteous and mature.

Doh, I threadjacked my own topic.

Do you have any thoughts on the MCP600 pump?

Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:40 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
threadjacked ur own topic :) lol

the mcp600 pump is great, performance-wise it's a serious alternative to the 1048 and 1250. the 12v convenience is pretty handy too.

noise-wise, it's been remarked that it's louder than an L1A @12v but quieter than an M1A @12v. so it's not as quiet as an eheim 1048 but i think if you're prepared to put the effort into boxing this pump somehow, it'd fit ur needs well.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Hmm. Geez, nearly 2 months of thinking about this and I still haven't come to any sort of concrete decision on a pump--I am far too indecisive!

If I were to add a second radiator setup in the front of the case--a lianli pc65--then it would have to be the size of 2x80mm fans, can anyone here recommend a specific heatercore that could provide a nice fit?

Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:04 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
i wouldn't rush into buying a watercooling setup. altering a watercooling setup is definitely not something for the faint-hearted, it gets very very messy with liquid going everywhere. if you can get the components right right from the start, it'll save you a LOT of hassle. you can never be too prepared.

i don't know of any heatercores that size, but if i wanted to use that space i'd use a couple of swiftech 80mm rads. (just my opinion)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Yeah, I was looking through the a heatercore dimensions database on procooling and didn't find anything close to the dimensions I would need. I was thinking of maybe using a double micro 80mm from HWLabs, though overpriced, it would fit and it would match my bix and I'm not really a penny pincher when it comes to this--in fact, I've come to terms with the fact that this is my money pit.

I may just go with the single BIX.

Here's another offtopic question--is there any advantage in installing sound dampening material in a case with a window (obviously just not over the window)?

[edit: oh, and if I did go with the double micro radiator, do you know where there are black plastic shrouds for it like the ones they sell for 120s on frozen cpu? I can't find them]

Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:55 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
there isa definite advantage. the way i have my case is that the sound deadening material that is there is dampening the hdd's - both my hdd's are surrounded by acoustic material on 4 sides which = very quiet pc :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
That's what is so loud about the box I have now. Silence was a priority when I built it, but I hadn't found SPCR. I got quiet fans, I got the Zalman hsf, Antec TruePower480 isn't really too noisy... and then I topped it off with 5 WD hard drives which are by far and away the noisest things ever. It sounds like an industrial plant from a half a block away.

I think I may settle on the 1048. I mean, I want the uber performance, but I got to looking at my case and it would be soooo much modding to put in this extra radiator--I don't mind that so much, but in the end, if I have worked so hard swapping out fans and selecting quiet components and the pump ends up ruining the entire thing... Well, I can't have that.

I want to mount the pump Vertically over where the rear exhaust fan is, if I used those little mounts with the rubber between the screw ends, do you think this would be quiet enough? NOw I have to track THOSE down, heh.

Bruce


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:20 am
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Actually, I changed my mind again. I will just somehow dampen the sound from the pump. I drew a picture of my project (pardon my mspaint skills, it's not really to scale, but best I could guesstimate):

Image

Also, I have a project log up:
http://www.deckadance.com/curious/pics/misc/project

I would like some recommendations on the most quiet way I can go about mounting the pump vertically like that.

PS: Chylld, thanks for all the advice and letting me bounce my thoughts off of you. I really appreciate it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:45 am 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
mounting the pump there is interesting, i think if i were to do that i'd make a metal bracket that attaches to a rear fan mount and overhangs over the top (just under the psu) a little so that you can suspend the pump with elastic bands. i've seen it done before successfully, it might be a bit tricky but i think it'll work.

there will be an issue with that though, the mcp600 is not a self-priming pump so you'll have to manually suck water through the loop and thus through the pump before you turn the pump on otherwise it might kill itself. the swiftech pumps are not designed to run dry.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:48 am 
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Location: Little Rock, AR, USA
Yeah, I know, I've already resigned myself to sucking water (distilled of course) through the loop :) I saw someone mount their eheim on the back ( http://www.overclockersclub.com/gallery ... jpg&id=510 ) like that and I just thought it was too cool, that and it would give me room for a fill and bleed assembly. It's difficult fitting all of this in a mini tower,but that was my goal when I started--no external components, near silence, and power!

The big problem I'm comming against now is just how to construct a shroud for the dual micro radiator . . . I read on procooling about using panty hose, plexi glass, and resin--but I dunno about all that. I just want it to sit 3/4-1" off the radiator. Maybe some tin or something... beats me.

[edit: I think I just figured out the painfully obvious solution to the shroud problem... People have recommended things as far out there as paper machete (sp?)--Why not just canabalize 2 additional 80mm fans--dremel out the fan part and use their frames as shrouds? I have 5 or 6 spare not-so-quiet 80mm fans lying around... I kept trying to think of something that was as wide as a fan, and the size of a fan, and eureka--a fan!]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:23 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Rochester NY
Balsa wood works GREAT for shrouds! It absorbs quite a bit of fan vibration, is easy to work with, is VERY cheap, and is super lightweigh and cuttable. I have all of my 80mm fan spots opened (removed grill) and have 80 to 120mm balsa shrouds on them. Check on eBay for 3" balsa sheets, I think I remember getting 10 3"x36"x.5" sheets for something like a dollar a sheet. I also have a drive cage and intake duct made of balsa. It is so easy to move around becuase it is so light, yet very stron (If built right, with proper cutting and gluing)



Brian


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