Watercooling: maintenance headache

The alternative to direct air cooling

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wumpus
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Watercooling: maintenance headache

Post by wumpus » Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:04 pm

This is more of a "vent my frustrations" post, so consider yourselves warned.

In the process of switching out my P4/Koolance system for the new FX-53/Lian-Li V2000 I just built up, I noticed that the koolance system has again developed organic gunk in the transparent CPU block and in the lines.

Sigh.

I hate, hate, HATE ripping apart the watercooling system to perform the inevitable yearly maintenance. That's like a 4 hour job all by itself. Remove all the parts.. bleed the system.. pump some soapy water through it.. then build it back up again. What a colossal PAIN IN THE ASS. And yes, I used the koolance "pre-mixed" coolant pack, so I didn't put tap water in or anything retarded like that.

I'll be more than happy to stick with air cooling from this point on. I consider watercooling way more trouble than it's worth-- unless you want extreme performance overclocking and silence at the same time, in which case it's the only way to solve the problem.

I gotta flush this system and sell it asap. :x

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Post by TheDarkHacker » Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:17 pm

if you were to refill the system i would recommend that you would use distilled water and 10% additive instead of the koolance prefilled stuff

Glitch
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Post by Glitch » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:14 am

make sure you have a biocide.

im going to be using copper sulphate. definatly don't use anything with chlorine, or bromine.

i'd personally like to get some feed back on the use of copper sulphate as a anti-algae agent.

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Post by Sklug » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:04 am

I've been curious about these sorts of problems. Do you need light to get into the system for algae to grow? Given that algae needs light for photosynthesis, if I don't have a window in my case and no UV lights, do I need to worry about algae? Or is there some other sort of bacterial agent that grows?

I too and curious about what kind of biocides people use.

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Post by wumpus » Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:13 am

Is there any biocide so potent that you would NEVER have to do any maintenance on a watercooling system? Or so rarely that the system would be totally obsolete (let's say, four years?)

Watercoolers of the world, give us your input.. is this possible, yes or no?

I've had to clean my system out yearly, this is the second time now. First time I used distilled water + the koolance additive, 2nd time I used premixed koolance. Same timeframe for both, really.. 1 year.

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Post by Glitch » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:47 am

algae and some other grows that you can find in your machine don't always need light, they can grow on the minerals, and material provided in the fluid. and quite simply all sorts of things can grow, fungus, algae, bacteria, also just because its green doesn't mean its organic, i could be a copper compound created either by oxidisation, or gavanic corrosion.

i've talked to a few other people about using copper sulphate as a biocide, and they didn't see it as a bad idea, and they didn't recommend anything else. If you intent on using copper sulphate remember that it is poisonous, surplied in crystal form, and not very soluble. essential buy a small amount, and put only a small amount in your system. small is defined as ~1g depending how much water you have in your system.

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Post by Edward Ng » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:53 am

Speaking of this maintenance issue...

I plan to use the Fluid XP+ nonconductive cooling fluid from D-Tek Customs. Does anyone know if this fluid will suffer similar issues?

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Post by chylld » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:44 pm

i've been using nulon ultra cool (a car radiator coolant product) in an 8% mixture with distilled water, and i haven't had any corrosion or algae problems (yet). the water is still very clear, but then again that's only looking at the res and the tubing since i don't have a see-through waterblock top.

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Post by Nowhere_man » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:31 pm

Wumpus, goto an exotic tropical fish store, they can help you keep the slime away.

wumpus
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Post by wumpus » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:53 pm

Well, I'd like to hear from a watercooler who has run the same fluid in their system for 2 years.. for starters..

Anyone? Class? Bueller? Bueller?

Glitch
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Post by Glitch » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:43 am

Nowhere_man wrote:Wumpus, goto an exotic tropical fish store, they can help you keep the slime away.
what ever you do make sure anything you pick up doesn't contain any group 7 elements, in particular chlorine. stuff for ponds tends to have chlorine, or bromine.

these chemicals eat copper for breakfast

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Post by Nowhere_man » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:03 pm

e-myacin or emyacin is what I was trying to think of to get at the tropical fish store. It's an anti-biotic won't hurt copper or aluminum as far as I know. I've seen it recommended numerous times by hardcore watercoolers.

Personnally, I use Sierra environmentally friendly anti-freeze and distilled water. The system get used from time to time and never gets emptyed just topped off. Never has a slime problem just evaporation.

Last time I drained and filled was last summer to change brands of anti-freeze. Sierra is much "cleaner" looking not to mention environmentally friendler.

Your milage may vary, limited time offer, free steak knives only if you order in the next 2 seconds, offer not valid in California, Freedonia or the Virgin Islands.

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Post by Gooserider » Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:17 pm

1. There is a thread on ProCooling deals with this, reccomended was '*-sol blend for cleaning (a mix of Pine-sol, Lysol and water) followed with a fairly complex coolant formula that seemed to do a good job as a biocide and anti-corrosive.

2. I have seen copper sulfate reccomended AGAINST as a corrosive in copper systems.

3. There are several anti-biotic type biocides available at your pet fish store, reports I've seen suggest that all work for a while but tend to break down and need to have the dosage repeated ~1x / month (not a big deal, just open the res and toss in a pill...)

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Post by Straker » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:41 am

all that antibiotics will do is create a selective environment, use the same one constantly for a year and you'll end up with the same problem sooner or later... but conditions inside a WC setup are pretty harsh as it is. Remember that no one antibiotic will take care of everything that can grow in there, either. Come to think of it, I'd love to culture and identify some gunk from WC setups, but only using air atm myself. :)
"emyacin" is erythromycin, should be able to get it under a bunch of different brand names.

If you wanted to be hardcore, you could use real UV instead of wimpy black light crap inside your case, use clear hoses and nothing will ever grow in them unless you're really unlucky*. You'd need to be careful though, no windows in your case, can't open it while the lights are on etc... might cause premature aging of some of the stuff typically inside a PC case too, I don't know.
I think most hose materials preclude using any heavy artillery as additives even more than the water blocks do, copper by itself might be useful (will kill stuff, but might really accelerate corrosion if there are other metals around). If it's somehow in your budget, Teflon-lined hose should let you use whatever you want, peroxide, ozone, phenols, acridine, Roccal etc... like other people mentioned, you might have issues maintaining your water blocks/motor that way though.

* It's an uphill battle either way, they've been around a lot longer than us, Deinococcus radiodurans can live in nuclear reactor cores. :shock:

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Post by wumpus » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:56 am

So, basically, if you build a watercooling system, you MUST competely rebuild** it roughly once per year to flush and clean the crap growing in the water. There appears to be no way around this.

What a giant pain in the ass. It's enough to turn me off watercooling entirely. I don't mind totally rebuilding my system if I have some hot new components to install, but dedicating 3 full hours just to clean out the green crap growing in the water? No thanks!

** remove ALL components, take the case outside, drain it, run cleaning solution through it for however long it takes. Then refill with fresh fluid, and reinstall all your components.

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Post by Edwood » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:21 am

How is this different from taking the case out and using compressed air to blow off all the dust caked in the heatsinks, and yanking cards and blowing them off too?

If you route your tubing well, and plan for an easier access to fill and bleed, it would be easier.

Unless you're saying that you have to remove water blocks and tubes and manually scrub them with a brush or something.

-Ed

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Post by wumpus » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:04 pm

How is this different from taking the case out and using compressed air to blow off all the dust caked in the heatsinks, and yanking cards and blowing them off too?
In the last 10 years of owning computers, I'd estimate I have spent less than an hour-- in total-- "dusting off my computers". They just don't get that dusty.

Are you really comparing a trivial 5 minute compressed air spray with a multi-hour COMPLETE SYSTEM REBUILD? Eg, tearing every component out of the system and physically moving it outside the house.. then rebuilding it again, from scratch! Is there really any comparison?

I'm not dissing watercooling, just pointing out that there is a serious maintenance burden associated with watercooling systems. After the second year, I am officially saying "screw this". I'm not that extreme of an overclocker; it's not worth it.

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Post by Gooserider » Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:04 pm

Wumpus, there is NO NEED for a total rebuild so long as you aren't mixing metals and are willing to just do a periodic *sol flush!

All reports I've seen are that the *sol blend is not harmful to WC plumbing and such for short periods of time, and will kill and dissolve all the nasty goop so that no disassembly is needed. (The *sol formula was developed by a fellow named airspirit, who had built a multi-PC WC system with lots of glued up PVC plumbing that couldn't be disassembled for manual cleaning...) Thus what is needed is simply a drain, fill, drain & flush, then refill cycle. Agreed this is a pain, but far less than what you are describing.

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Post by Edward Ng » Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:27 pm

My recent experiences with system gunkage has led me to this thread over at Pro Cooling's Pro/Forums:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=7401

I recommend checking this out to anyone who is liquid cooling or considering liquid cooling, as you seriously don't want to have what happened to me happen to you...

Just for reference sake, I suffered from the, "white streamy gunk," problem, just like one of the people in that thread, as well.

This should prove helpful to prevent or at least relax the whole annual rebuild thing to some longer duration (hopefully).

Oh and the *sol formula: *sol (75% Pine Sol 25% Lysol); supposedly a foolproof flushing fluid that won't corrode the system in short duration exposure.

-Ed

EDIT: Also note this prime piece of info:
airspirit of Pro/Forums wrote:You should be cleaning your tubing periodically. I am using the following:

70% distilled, 20% red glycol, 5% hyperlube, 5% sanitizer. I have no bacterial growth in over 80-100ft of tubing and piping, and I have absolutely no corrosion. Further, there is no film on my tubing at this time. In a smaller system, use less sanitizer/glycol and more hyperlube and you'll be fine. Remember, that stuff in my system lived through ALCOHOL ... I don't think any additive other than the *sol enema would kill that stuff.

Hyperlube is my preferred additive, along with other protections.

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Post by Gooserider » Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:45 pm

That is the thread that I remembered Ed, thanks for the pointer... FWIW, I did some looking into the recipe, and it's a little vague and hard to come by.

1. Distilled is pretty obvious and easy to come by.

2. Red Glycol is "Dexcool" coolant used in recent GM, and some Japanese cars - see your local autoparts store

3. Hyperlube is a bit of a challenge, it seems to be a western US distribution product, and is hard to find in much of the rest of the world - however they do have a website, and it is possible to mail order the stuff in 3 bottle packages.

4. Sanitizer doesn't have a specific brand, however it is supposedly available at most pool and spa stores as non-chlorine, non-bromine hot tub sanitizer. This is interesting as the label that was shown in the thread showed some fairly complex organic chemicals w/ both chlorine and bromine in them. However I suppose that if the group 7 elements are tied up in the organics then they aren't free to corrode the metals.

(BTW, Airspirit was also the person who created the former 'heater core database', so I would count him as having significant expertise on the subject)

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Post by Edward Ng » Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:11 pm

I bought myself a bottle of Dex-Cool from R & S Strauss; it has a Shell symbol on it, and is labelled as GM Approved, with 5 Year, 150,000 mile protection. Black plastic bottle with an orange plastic cap. $10 for a gallon; not half bad, and it will last me quite a long time.

They don't carry Hy-Per-Lube Super Coolant at R & S Strauss; I will check a few of my local shops tomorrow (R & S Strauss is in the Bronx), before I force myself to order a crapload of it from their site (dang I only need a little!)...

I already have activated chlorine dioxide on order, as I said; now that I only ordered a small amount, since it comes in tiny bottles (the CD and the activator)...

-Ed

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Post by Ephemeron » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:21 pm

Even though I've never watercooled, I feel your pain wumpus. It's like you've got this awesome technology on the surface that does everything; cool, quiet, and with the all important geek-factor; there is that one nagging flaw that drives you nuts that always remains. Grrr. If it's not up to your standards it's not up to your standards; you shouldn't feel ashamed to say "screw it."

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Post by Edward Ng » Sat Sep 04, 2004 9:31 pm

I can fully understand how he feels about it; I had to flush out my system more than once already due to mistakes I made in trying to keep mother nature out of the picture.

Let's say I learned the hard way.

Honestly, water cooling is not 100% necessary to get silence at stock speeds.
It's when you want to overclock and still get silence, where H2O helps the most.

Another situation relates to very hot GPUs & VPUs; hot CPUs can be dealt with but hot graphics + hot CPU together? Silently? Way harder without H2O.

-Ed

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Post by Straker » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:06 am

Edward Ng wrote:I bought myself a bottle of Dex-Cool from R & S Strauss
oh dear. google dexcool
airspirit knows his stuff, wonder what's up, then again that thread is pretty old. i'm sure it won't make your PC explode or anything, but i wouldn't want to leave anything in there for a long time when it can kill cars over and over and is now the subject of class action lawsuits. :?
ironically i think procooling is where i first saw mention of these problems caused by dexcool. OTOH by default most vehicle owners are even dumber than most PC owners, so maybe there's something specific in the maintenance that they all keep forgetting. :P
old thread but didn't see this til now, sorry

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Post by Edward Ng » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:11 pm

I'll be sure to mention it the moment I see any sort of corrosion or deterioration. I think the much lower flowrates and pressures as well as much lower amount of metal (mostly PVC tubing, rather than metal pipes) and reduced amount of aluminum (my readings so far of Google findings pinned the problem on corrosion of aluminum components) in a liquid cooling system such as mine, which is mostly PVC, nylon or copper (with the exception of the anodized aluminum pumps) should be able to do okay, but only time will tell.

-Ed

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Post by Straker » Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:54 am

Edward Ng wrote:(my readings so far of Google findings pinned the problem on corrosion of aluminum components)
whoops, that's right, sorry. yeah, would expect it to take a really long time to see any problems in a regular wc setup unless you were at least using an aluminum rad if not other parts.

so noone anywhere has found a really good, easily available anticorrosive that doesn't involve glycol yet? :(
edit: not 'cause it's inherently bad or anything, just seems sort of inefficient at best to use a fairly high-viscosity antifreeze as an anticorrosive in an ordinary >ambient wc setup
Last edited by Straker on Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by HammerSandwich » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:58 am

Straker wrote:OTOH by default most vehicle owners are even dumber than most PC owners, so maybe there's something specific in the maintenance that they all keep forgetting.
I suspect many of the problems come from topping up the system with green glycol. When I changed the coolant on my '97 Chevy van a couple years ago, the drained Dexcool was pristine.

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