for lazy watercoolers

nahyah · Post by **nahyah** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:00 pm

only if i had some money to spend on this...

http://www.sharkacorp.com/Merchant2/mer ... ry_Code=cm

what you guys think?

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:41 pm

Looks like a collection of 2nd or 3rd rate products put together in a cosmetically attractive but functionally poor design.

1. They mix metals, thus are asking for corrosion problems.
2. Bay res's have a reported tendency for leakage.
3. Hydor pumps have a mixed reputation at best. Semi-hard mounting will increase noise.
4. 3/8" tubing is marginally useful compared to 1/2"
5. BIP radiator is TINY, very marginal for cooling a hot system
6. Rad is mounted on the system exhaust, further reducing efficiency

The longer I look at the system, the less I see to like about it.

Gooserider

Zyzzyx · Post by **Zyzzyx** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:16 pm

I'd say the Zalman Reserator is the perfect watercooling for lazy folks. Side benefit that its silent.

nahyah · Post by **nahyah** » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:22 pm

1) Show me a way of not mixing metals in water cooling
2) I've been using this typhoon bay res for a while with no problem and i really havent seen much forum post countering that.
3) Hydor L30 is one of the most recommended in most forums i read. next to ehime pumps and it has rubber suction on the bottom REDUCING noise by absorbing the vibrations
4) Whats with the "Bigger is better" thinking? bigger is not always better
5) BIP rad is used in alot of the top of the line kits like Asetek waterchill kits. i admit its not the best but its not the worst either. Also see above
6) Did you even stop and think MAYBE they use that as an intake and use the top and bottom as the exhaust?

Longer i look at the case more i want it.

what would you put in it and how much would you charge for it?

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:47 pm

1) Show me a way of not mixing metals in water cooling

Careful component selection - Cu/brass rad, Cu blocks, plastic bodied pump, etc. Cu and brass mix safely, and so do the solders used to put them together.

2) I've been using this typhoon bay res for a while with no problem and i really havent seen much forum post countering that.

You will note that I say reported problems - I don't use a bay res myself, but have seen multiple reports by different users of leakage problems. If you haven't had problems I'm glad, but IMHO I've seen sufficient reports of problems to make me wary.

3) Hydor L30 is one of the most recommended in most forums i read. next to ehime pumps and it has rubber suction on the bottom REDUCING noise by absorbing the vibrations

I guess it depends on who's reports you read. I feel like I've seen as many if not more reports of people complaing about noise and reliability problems as I have people that like them. OTOH Eheim and Iwaki for instance get much better and consistent reviews. Hydor is a low budget pump and you get what you pay for, including possibly inconsistent quality. Hydor also has a very low head pressure, making it marginal for high performance blocks.

4) Whats with the "Bigger is better" thinking? bigger is not always better

If you are running a system hot enough to justify a WC system, then IMHO you need the extra flow capacity of 1/2" tubing on at least the main lines of the system, especially between the res and pump inlet, and between the pump outlet and the CPU. (If doing a multi-branch system, 3/8" is ok on the branches) Other opinions may vary, but you asked what *I* thought of it, and the answer is 'not much'...

5) BIP rad is used in alot of the top of the line kits like Asetek waterchill kits. i admit its not the best but its not the worst either. Also see above

IMHO most 'WC specific' rads are over priced and under capacity, give me my single pass (1/4 the flow resistance) Fedco 2-342 equivalent core at 1/2 the price and several times the cooling capacity. (BTW, the Asetek kits don't impress me that much either...)

6) Did you even stop and think MAYBE they use that as an intake and use the top and bottom as the exhaust?

If they do, then it would look to me like a very poor airflow design, likely to recirculate preheated air coming out of the PSU, not to mention the issues with airflow direction, etc.

Longer i look at the case more i want it.

Then feel free to buy it...

Maybe I'm reading non-existent annoyance into your reply, but you were the one who asked for opinions about the setup, so why do you seem upset when I give you an opinion that doesn't agree with yours?

Gooserider

Straker · Post by **Straker** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:59 pm

long and short of it is it's an ordinary case with stock WC components, would be worth it if there was a substantial discount, but why not just buy everything yourself and get exactly what you want?

you can't even be lazy this way since you'd need to test it first, take it out to put your guts in the case, etc anyways

nahyah · Post by **nahyah** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:01 pm

Gooserider:
no annoyances or any hard feelings. its i some times sound like that when im typing and i really dont have much skill in transferring my thoughts to words (thus thats why im an engineer not a writer). ne whoo~

most people dont mind using mixed metal and really dont know honestly
if brass is better at transferring heat than aluminum or not.

i agree theres alot of reports on ray res being a problem but not this particular brand i have not seen.

opinions on hydor is to each its own and i think 320gph rate is good enough for anything and if my company is using that pump to cool the server, i'd say its good enough for me.

theres certainly a big debate going to see if 1/2" is really nessary at ocforums soo im going to wait and see what happends at the end.

i heard 77 bonnevill heatcore is better but i really havent seen where i can get one. if you can kindly send me a link... ^___^

the side and the front of the case is giant exhaust. plus the fans included will be sufficient at drawing out the heat IMO front and back in top, bottom and side out.

i'd get if i had the money.

i heard some stories about Tyan Mobo and watercooling. how the spacing between the cpu sockets are not enough for wc?

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:03 pm

nahyah wrote:most people dont mind using mixed metal and really dont know honestly
if brass is better at transferring heat than aluminum or not.

Mixing metal isn't a problem from a cooling standpoint. It's a HUGE problem from a galvanic corrosion perspective. A system will literally ruin itself from its own use.

nahyah · Post by **nahyah** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:58 am

what about those anti-corrosive like waterwetters?

TheDarkHacker · Post by **TheDarkHacker** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:55 am

first of all dont go with water wetter. it sucks. just go to your local auto parts store and buy some anitfreeze. if you are mixing metals i suggest you make it about 20% of your entire liquid. if you are not mixing metals just go for about 10% to 15%

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:59 pm

First off, anti-corrosives help, and I would reccomend they be used in ANY system, including one that is nominally not mixed. However they only SLOW corrosion DOWN, they don't stop it. The more potentially corrosive the system is (more mixed metals) the faster the anticorrosive ingredients will 'wear out' and rapid corrosion will start again. (The anti corrosives basically work by combining with the corrosion ions and taking them out of solution, which also takes the anti corrosive out of solution as well. Once the anti-corrosives have been used up, it's just like they had never been there)

nahyah:
no annoyances or any hard feelings. its i some times sound like that when im typing and i really dont have much skill in transferring my thoughts to words (thus thats why im an engineer not a writer). ne whoo~

No hard feelings on this side either, I just sometimes feel that it is better to make sure there aren't early on if there's a question rather than letting things build.

most people dont mind using mixed metal and really dont know honestly
if brass is better at transferring heat than aluminum or not.

Possibly true, doesn't make it a good decision though IMHO. I feel that it is a question of many people being fuzzy on the nature of the problem, and being BS's by vendors claims that hard annodizing and anticorrosives cure the problem when in fact they just slow it down long enough that many will upgrade the problem away. I tend to keep my machines for years longer than average, so I don't want anything that is going to wear out...

i agree theres alot of reports on ray res being a problem but not this particular brand i have not seen.

Possibly true, I haven't paid a great deal of attention to the brands, just looked at them as a class. They also have other reported problems that aren't brand related, such as being more difficult to fill, not really having useful capacity, and usually being setup with restrictive hose size fittings (at least from the 1/2" user POV) so I think one is better off with a discrete res with more capacity and a better fill setup. (IMHO a tall narrow res is also better for seperating out bubbles than a short wide one like a bay-res)

opinions on hydor is to each its own and i think 320gph rate is good enough for anything and if my company is using that pump to cool the server, i'd say its good enough for me.

Well *I* wouldn't put a Hydor on anything 'mission critical' - but then I tend to look for 'five 9's" even from non critical equipment... If I were building a server I would probably look for a top reliability pump like an Iwaki or possibly an Eheim, and likely want to do redundant pumps. OTOH, for a non-critical machine, a Hydor is a lower cost alternative - however the very mixed reports I see on them makes me suspect they have erratic quality, which makes me unwilling to gamble on getting a good one.

theres certainly a big debate going to see if 1/2" is really nessary at ocforums soo im going to wait and see what happends at the end.

If there is, it's a repeat of the same debate that has happened many times before, on different boards, and no doubt will again. IMHO it's been resolved LONG ago to the extent that it can be. 3/8" will work fine with a moderate power system that isn't really stressed, especially if combined with a low power pump, and low flow blocks. However if you are after a higher performance threshold, 1/2" will work better as it offers lower flow resistance allowing the pressure drops to be concentrated on the blocks instead of the tubes. At higher flow volumes (~>2 lpm) 3/8" has significant flow resistance, while 1/2" is essentially insignificant at any volume likely to be reached in a normal WC setup.

i heard 77 bonnevill heatcore is better but i really havent seen where i can get one. if you can kindly send me a link... ^___^

The key thing to look for in a core is that it is single pass (water enters one end, leaves at the other) which is somewhat hard to find as most cores are dual pass (water enters and leaves at the same end) as a single pass will have 1/4th the flow resistance as a dual pass the same size. The most popular single pass is probably the FedCo 2-342, which fits late 60's early 70's Chevy/GMC trucks w/ AC. It has really long I/O plumbing which requires modding (easy) and is a bit on the big size (9.5" X 6.125" X 2") but easily mounts 2 120mm fans. I'm not sure what the deal is with your Bonnie core. As to where to get, if you are in the US, you can get almost any core easily from your local radiator or auto-parts store (I like NAPA) or on the web from Leakycar.com (or something like that)

the side and the front of the case is giant exhaust. plus the fans included will be sufficient at drawing out the heat IMO front and back in top, bottom and side out.

Opinions vary, I'm partial to cube cases which makes me a bit strange in any case

but general opinion is that side blowholes are not optimal, and the best air flow is usually in at the front and / or bottom and exhaust at the rear, near the top. Besides being optimal for cooling flow, it also is best at directing noise away from the userspace.

i heard some stories about Tyan Mobo and watercooling. how the spacing between the cpu sockets are not enough for wc?

Tyan complies with AMD specs for block clearances, so long as the blocks do as well, that is a non-issue. A bigger problem is that Tyan doesn't give the bolt holes that many boards do, so you have to use a clip-on type design. I suspect the Tyan boards might actually be more of a problem for air coolers as I suspect there might be problems with some of the oversize HSF blocks. In general, I'd say that almost any WB is going to be smaller than an HSF, so mounting an appropriately sized block should be no problem for any board.

Gooserider

nahyah · Post by **nahyah** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:12 am

all copper/brass WC sound good but can you imagine the weight? wow...

heatcores like 77' bonnevill, made of copper?

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:54 pm

Weight can be kept under AMD minimum specs (not easily, but it's possible) with all copper. Certainly an all copper WB is no worse than some of the larger all Cu HSF units that are so popular here. Further a WB tends to be much smaller and sit closer to the CPU, which minimizes the lever arm effect and thus reduces the problems with excess weight.

See my earlier post for heater core discussions, including a specific application. In general, cars with cast iron engines will have Cu/Brass cores, cars w/ aluminum engines will have Al cores.

Gooserider