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 Post subject: Quietest 12v pump?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:03 am 
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What would be the quietest 12v pump for an internal watercooing system?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Eheim's are pretty quiet, same with hydor's, dangerden CSP Mag, and most pumps in general. I'd think an eHeime 1048 should be very very quiet.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:19 pm 
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Location: Bellevue, Nebraska
Ryan wrote:
Eheim's are pretty quiet, same with hydor's, dangerden CSP Mag, and most pumps in general. I'd think an eHeime 1048 should be very very quiet.


all the pumps you listed are AC pumps. he asked for 12v dc pumps.


I forget exactly which one, but apple watercooled one of their G5 computers, and the pump designed to run in it was a "Laing/Delphi" 12vdc pump. its very small, has a lifetime in excess of 50,000 hours running 24/7, and is very quiet. i saw a video of it running at about 6inches away and it was barely audible in the quiet room. its sold under a number of different names by different manufacturers. you can google for some reviews on it.

Danger Den DDC-12v
Swifttech MCP350


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:02 am 
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Actually the CSP-MAG is a 12V pump and there are "modded" Eheims to work on 12V as well. Anyways, the best bet would be the Swiftech MCP350 /Laing/Danger Den DDC (the same pump) and the C-Systems/Danger Den/D-TEK CSP-MAG. While some users have reported amazing results with the MAG, others had not been so lucky (I got a MAG that makes an annoying rattling noise and there are others who also god noisy MAGs). The initial DDC series had some problems with starting after a while, but that problem has been reported as beeing solved with the latest PCB revision.


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 Post subject: Re: Quietest 12v pump?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:00 pm 
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James, if the DDC/MCP-350 doesn't have enough flow for the system you're planning, you can modify it for much better flow. http://www.systemcooling.com/mcp350_mod-01.html

I haven't tried this myself, but people say the modified pump is just as quiet as the stock version.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:17 am 
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I've heard many people say that the DangerDen D5/Swiftech MCP655 is quieter than the 350, but i cannot confirm it. (I think cathar said it)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:27 am 
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scorp wrote:
Actually the CSP-MAG is a 12V pump and there are "modded" Eheims to work on 12V as well. Anyways, the best bet would be the Swiftech MCP350 /Laing/Danger Den DDC (the same pump) and the C-Systems/Danger Den/D-TEK CSP-MAG. While some users have reported amazing results with the MAG, others had not been so lucky (I got a MAG that makes an annoying rattling noise and there are others who also god noisy MAGs). The initial DDC series had some problems with starting after a while, but that problem has been reported as beeing solved with the latest PCB revision.



Don't think Dave ever posted on why that was. Just that it was caused by the impellar not stabilizing and rubbing against the bearings. If it operates correctly it will use the liquid as a bearing so its floating. Thats why its so quiet. There were some lengthy posts on it over at the procooling forums. Dave's memberID is "Dave."
I remember seeing a few posts of people with those problems being able to just return them for a new one.

And wasn't there a large thread here about the MCP350 vs eheim 1048 in terms of noise?


I'd vote for the CSP-MAG. If you are extremely unlucky C-Systems has a good return policy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:03 am 
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Evil Gnomes wrote:
I've heard many people say that the DangerDen D5/Swiftech MCP655 is quieter than the 350, but i cannot confirm it. (I think cathar said it)

From what I've read, it's the other way around. The D5 is makes less noise than the D4, but the DDC beats them both.


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 Post subject: Eheim 1046
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:22 pm 
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Location: Greece (Thessaloniki)
Get an Eheim 1046 and use it with a relay (available on frozencpu.com and watercooling.fr ) or get the Innovatek modded one (HPPS 1046)( http://www.watercooling.fr/catalog/inde ... Path=28_34 ,also available on OC-Card.de) .Then sit back and go to sleep...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:23 am 
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Location: United Kingdom
I have been running a single CSP750 MKII in my system for a while and it was very quiet, unfortunatly it died a week ago so now I have a CSP-MAG, this is much quieter! So much so that I can now hear my HDD which is in a modded watercooled box and could not be distinguish before as the CSP750 was obviously louder.

The CSP-MAG rocks 8) .. except now I need a quieter HDD :wink:

_________________
My Passive watercooled project


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:18 am 
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jamesavery22 wrote:
scorp wrote:
Actually the CSP-MAG is a 12V pump and there are "modded" Eheims to work on 12V as well. Anyways, the best bet would be the Swiftech MCP350 /Laing/Danger Den DDC (the same pump) and the C-Systems/Danger Den/D-TEK CSP-MAG. While some users have reported amazing results with the MAG, others had not been so lucky (I got a MAG that makes an annoying rattling noise and there are others who also god noisy MAGs). The initial DDC series had some problems with starting after a while, but that problem has been reported as beeing solved with the latest PCB revision.



Don't think Dave ever posted on why that was. Just that it was caused by the impellar not stabilizing and rubbing against the bearings. If it operates correctly it will use the liquid as a bearing so its floating. Thats why its so quiet. There were some lengthy posts on it over at the procooling forums. Dave's memberID is "Dave."
I remember seeing a few posts of people with those problems being able to just return them for a new one.

And wasn't there a large thread here about the MCP350 vs eheim 1048 in terms of noise?

I'd vote for the CSP-MAG. If you are extremely unlucky C-Systems has a good return policy.


Can you point me to those articles/posts concerning DDC noise, please? I've had trouble finding ANYTHING at ProCooling, due to their FUBAR (and now wholly absent) search feature.

I have a new DDC, and cannot believe all the hype I've heard over how quiet it is. "Barely audible at 1 foot," and "less vibration than my hard drive." I can hear mine 20 feet away, and it's sitting on foam amid three 120mm Panaflo M1As running at 1100 RPM. I've had it running a few days, and all the little microscopic air bubbles appear to be bled out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:16 am 
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Same place it always was, and working peachy...

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/search.php

And a few relevant threads -
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12083
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10227
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10825
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=11584

If you have a noisy DDC or MAG, then both will likely be from early batches, and most suppliers are offering replacement for one from more recent batches due to acknowledged bugs in the early batches which have now been fixed / elliminated... Providing you're within 12 months of original purchase date.

The hype over it's quietness is wholly justified - you've just been unlucky and received one of the flawed earlier releases from the products' lifespan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:35 pm 
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Marci wrote:
...If you have a noisy DDC or MAG, then both will likely be from early batches, and most suppliers are offering replacement for one from more recent batches due to acknowledged bugs in the early batches which have now been fixed / elliminated... Providing you're within 12 months of original purchase date.

The hype over it's quietness is wholly justified - you've just been unlucky and received one of the flawed earlier releases from the products' lifespan.

Danger Den was very fast on the RMA, but, sadly, I must say this pump is no better than the first. What are the chances that I got 2 bad ones in a row? I think it's far more likely that we have a failure to communicate. The "quietest" pump the DDC may be, and it is not what I would call "noisy". However, I'm going to have to start slapping the deaf sods that claim it is "barely audible at 1 foot". :wink: This is the noisiest component I have, and easily heard 20 feet away (becomes inaudible to me around 40 feet). For now I'm going to assume that this is as good as it gets, and focus on sound proofing. The bummer is, I'm going to have to reinvent my setup to make room for soundproofing around the pump. :(


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:38 am 
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Location: West Yorkshire, UK
Summat not right then... just hooked up 3x DDCs at random and practically inaudible at 2feet for me...

How are you mounting the pump to the case? Should be using AntiVibration studs... see http://www.indiayellowpagesnet.com/pic51010.jpg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:37 am 
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omaticrail, this misunderstanding is likely due to different noise standards in Procooling vs SPCR. My DDC is noisy like hell, compared to my 1048, but its vibrations are like a fart in space compared to any Eheim pump. That's why, if you don't see to it and hang your Eheim in elastic silicon strings, using soft tubing and letting it touch nothing even close to solid, well then the DDC will end up appearing quieter anyways. How many people outside of SPCR do you think go through that de-coupling when they install their pump? Using rubber studs or similar, as often suggested, just aint good enough for the rattling Eheims.

Problem for us silence afficionados is, it's considerably tougher to isolate the DDC noise than to suspend the Eheim. I tried to cover mine in thick soft cell-foam and cast it into a block of cement. Still made noise. Now I quit using it. Instead I've spent the last 30 minutes talking trash about it here in forums. I'm gonna get my hands full soon :-)

The SPCR reference of quiet is not some random fans running off a PWM fan-controller at some 1500 rpm. Let's face it. SPCR uses its own set of references and value words like quiet differently. We're freaks :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:37 pm 
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snutten wrote:
omaticrail, this misunderstanding is likely due to different noise standards in Procooling vs SPCR. My DDC is noisy like hell, compared to my 1048, but its vibrations are like a fart in space compared to any Eheim pump.


Hmmm, they seems to have a lot of variance. My Laing Delphi is quiet even at 12V when vibration has been eliminated. Without vibration mounting it's unbearable, but that's a moot point here. It's of course not silent and it's louder than the quietest fans at 12V, but still I cannot by any means call it noisy.

It seems that I have had luck. It also might be that the ones sold in Europe come from different batch than ones sold in U.S.

And yes, I know the SPCR definition for quiet. During past few years almost all PC equipment I have had has complied with SPCR standards and I have also bought and undervolted more than few fans to find the quietest possible pieces for my rig..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:07 pm 
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Should we call a pump that makes more noise than a Papst 4412 @ 12 V quiet? The Eheim 1048 is way quieter than that. And the Eheim still needs isolation or it contributes hearable noise in a system built around Nexus fans under 5V.

Maybe the much talked about individual variations supposed to be found amongst the DDCs may rather be due to a lack of common references?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:22 pm 
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snutten wrote:
Should we call a pump that makes more noise than a Papst 4412 @ 12 V quiet?


I do not have 4412's, but three 8412's and I have to say that to my experience PAPST fans are bad reference point due to enormous sample variance. One of them is *very* quiet when undervolted, other two produce more or less rattling even when undervolted. The loudest is too loud to be considered in silent system.

I also think you are mixing "quiet" and "silent" here. I think the more or less official definition in SPCR reviews is that <30dB(A) is considered somewhat quiet and <20dB(A) virtually silent. Ant at least my Laing Delphi pump is clearly within the quiet range there when mounted properly. I also expect it to be virtually silent when undervolted a bit and enclosed into proper case, but that of course is something that is yet to be shown.

The thick acrylic cover on my piece might also do some good to acoustics:
Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:47 am 
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That's nice work on the pump there. Did you do that yourself? Impressive! Mine looks like the sort of brown lump you can occasionally step into while walking the curb. Does the acrylic casting help much? My cellfoam and cement solution was so-so.

I have missed SPCR formally stating <30dB to be considered quiet. Anyways, calling a pump quiet sort of insinuates that other pumps are louder. Which in this case just isn't true. The 1046 for example is simply playing in another league, noisewise.

Also, I think most people hope for their w/c setup to be quieter than an air-cooled alternative. The problem with pump noise is somewhat overlooked in my opinion. Probably because it's not a problem at all until one tries to go really quiet. Which is what lots of folks aim for here. A pump making more noise than all fans combined in an undervolted Nexus air solution makes me wonder.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:15 am 
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snutten wrote:
That's nice work on the pump there. Did you do that yourself? Impressive! Mine looks like the sort of brown lump you can occasionally step into while walking the curb. Does the acrylic casting help much? My cellfoam and cement solution was so-so.


Unfortunately I cannot take credit for the acrylic part: Coolputer stocks them: Image

I haven't made direct comparisons yet but as in a normal configuration the cover is some 1mm thick cast plastic and now it is replaced with 25mm thick carved block of acrylic, it's pretty obvious (and hearable) that it makes a difference.

Anyway, I can barely hear my Laing pump at 1 meter distance in open air and at 12V in a middle of the night, so for my purposes it's quiet enough. I expect no problems in making it virtually silent when inside a case.

My guesstimate is that our ambient noise level at night time is somewhere near 20-23dB(A) and 25-35dB(A) at evening time, so I need to just get under that to have virtually silent computer.

I will do some comparisons later today and post the results. I will compare the middle-noisy PAPST 8412 sample I have, Thermaltake 120mm UV fan and Laing pump (with both covers, if I can find the stock one).

snutten wrote:
Also, I think most people hope for their w/c setup to be quieter than an air-cooled alternative. The problem with pump noise is somewhat overlooked in my opinion. Probably because it's not a problem at all until one tries to go really quiet. Which is what lots of folks aim for here. A pump making more noise than all fans combined in an undervolted Nexus air solution makes me wonder.


That's a point where I disagree, at least with my samples: The Laing pump I have definitely is not louder than the fans *combined*. Especially if you think about enough fans so that they could provide same amount of cooling efficiency, DDC is definitely quieter. My sample is louder than a properly selected *single* fan, but most of the people doing watercooling have setups that would require more than a single fan if aircooled.

Another point is the pump has an advantage that it can be enclosed - fan is a lot harder to position it so that no sound escapes to user's ears since it has to have open space in order to move air. The pump on the other hand can be totally wrapped into something, since only the tubing must be able to escape the enclosure.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:01 pm 
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zds wrote:
I will do some comparisons later today and post the results.


And here it comes:

The contestants and some test equipment:

Image

On the backthe Laing Delphi 12VDC pump. On the front from left: PAPST 8412NGL 80mm fan (rated 0.045A / 12dB(A) but definitely louder), Thermaltake A2277 120mm UV fan (0.3A / 21dB(A)) and Silverstone FM121 120mm fan (0.4A / 17-39.5dB(A)).

Testing:

Image
Image

As it's now daytime, I didn't even try to measure absolute noise level, just make relative head-to-head comparisons. In order to eliminate vibration noise all contestants were placed on 50mm thick soft foam. Acoustics on the measurement room were quite challenging: walls are mostly bare and hard (concrete and similar).

Fully bleeding the small loop I made for testing the pump proved out to be quiet a challenge and there definitely was some additional noise due to miniscular airbubbles when I made listening tests.

But even on this level I had to go really close to the pump to hear any sound. Mostly the sound seemed to come from water turbulence, as the pump rushed the water throught the tight loop and fairly restrictive T piece used to bleed the system. In these ambient conditions (ambient sound level below 25dB(A), maybe as low as 20dB(A)) it was hard to hear the pump at all.

Results:

Pump against PAPST:

PAPST at 12V was clearly louder than the pump. It was by no means noisy, as it's one of the most silent fans I have ran into, but it had some level of low-frequency clicking motor noise and air turbulence noise easily heard from distances below 1 meter. It was by no means noisy, and it would be very hard to hear if it was inside a properly
constructed case.

I have soldered a trimmer pot to the PAPST to be able to fine-tune the voltage level, but as I wanted to use only known voltage levels I set it to zero resistance.

Next step was to do the 7V trick and at this level PAPST fell clearly below the pump in noise level. I had to strain my hearing to hear either of the devices, but the pump was more easily audible at this test. My guesstimate is that the pump equals in noise PAPST volted to 9V.

Thermaltake fan against the pump:

Thermaltake at 12V was so much louder than the pump that were really was no contest. At 7V is was a tad louder than the pump, but this was maybe the closest pair in this test - it's more up to your hearing, ambient noise and preferences which one you determine louder.

Next I managed to test that the Silverstone fan at 5V started cleanly and was more silent than TT@7V or pump@12V, but also didn't provide much airflow to talk about.

At this point the ancient PSU I used to run the equipment shut itself down and didn't start again. I have blocked it's fan from running in order to eliminate it as a noise source and I guess something overheated... Oh well.

Anyway, the conclusion is: the Laing Delphi pump I own can honestly be defined as quiet. It equaled noisewise one of the most silent 80mm fans I have at around 9V and the most silent 120mm fan I have at 7V.

In the Laing Delphi there really is not much noise to talk about than the sound that water causes when is circulates in the tubing. I noticed some noise from the impeller, some infrequent very quiet clicks every now and then, but they were too quiet to be heard from any distance greater than 30cm and I think they might be due to poor bleeding of the system at this point.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:54 pm 
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zds wrote:
I have soldered a trimmer pot to the PAPST to be able to fine-tune the voltage level, but as I wanted to use only known voltage levels I set it to zero resistance.

Next step was to do the 7V trick and at this level PAPST fell clearly below the pump in noise level. I had to strain my hearing to hear either of the devices, but the pump was more easily audible at this test. My guesstimate is that the pump equals in noise PAPST volted to 9V.


This started to intrigue me and thus I dug out my digital multimeter. After confirming that it gave believable readings (some 12.05V on 12V rail and 5.03 on 5V rail), I tried to set the PAPST fan as close to the noise level of the pump as I could. I ended up going back and forth between 9V and 10V - they are so different on the type of the noise they produce it's hard to define when they are even. At this point the loop had also been better bled, so most of the noise from the pump was impeller noise.

To get another opinion, I also let my girlfriend to have a say. She's an engineer so while she's not a silencing enthusiast, she has some knowledge about technical equipment.

I let her to set the PAPST to voltage level where the pump and the fan are equally noisy and she found it as hard as I did, but finally ended up at 10.3V. In relation to the TT fan she confirmed my results: TT@7V was a tad quieter than the pump, but you had to listen carefully to notice it. At TT@12V it was easy for her also to say that the TT was clearly louder.

Of course I didn't tell her my own opinions beforehand to get non-biased measurements.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:44 pm 
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Interesting work, zds. I did a little experimenting myself. As I have 2 pumps to play with for the moment (original and RMA), I built an open test loop with a huge rez (half gallon, a.k.a. 2 liter) to try pump orientation and different damping. First thing I discovered (that appearently you did not experience) is that the pump is loud as hell when there's no restriction. It made a sort of clicking noise. Only after I applied vice-grips (loosely) midway down the outlet hose did it behave normally.

I'm still blown away by your statements like "straining" to hear the pump at 12v.

For those curious about my mounting, my original gripe concerned the pump's behavior when sitting on its side on soft foam tape (5mm). Subsequent tests have been done by suspending the pump by its hoses. Noise decreases by about half that way, but I don't see any realistic way to maintain this "mount". I'm liking the looks of that soft-mounted, acrylic brick for a top. The combination of weight and soft-mounting may be just the trick. hmmmmmm imagine that block being copper.... :shock:

Bummer that the concrete idea didn't work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:21 am 
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Location: Helsinki, Finland
:o

It seems that I have really have some luck. Water-cooling.com sells the acrylic top separately, if you want to try it out: http://www.watercoolingshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=42&products_id=408

I am trying hard to find the original cover to repeat the tests with it, but no luck this far.

When I started my pump the first time it was *very* noisy, made like hi-pitched scraping noises and rattled a lot. I then soft-mounted the pump and swapped the cover, to have the noise lessen but not go away. After some experimentation I discovered that it was my bad test-loop that caused the problems - it was hard to bleed it properly and there was alway some air left in the impeller comparment.

Obviously this is not a problem in your case, but it looks like the Laing Delphi pump is very sensitive to any imperfections in the impeller environment, so it might be that some bad patch of plastic covers might make it significantly louder.

But I am only guessing and your guess is as good as mine..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:15 am 
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I have had every pump indicated in this thread; here are my findings.

1.Ehiem - GREAT!

2.CSP-MAG - GREAT! have two now- same or better performance as Ehiem, about same noise level as Ehiem

3. DDC - JUNK! Had two fail and they are not as quite as Mag and Ehiem

4. D5 - LOUD! It is also very big, otherwise it is still running fine

Simple choice for me, if DC use a MAG, if AC use an Ehiem.
AC is easier for external, DC for internal mounting


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Location: Greece (Thessaloniki)
Can someone confirm that the CSP-MAG is undervoltable-will it work if connected to a rheostat made for PC fans?
Can it be made silent this way like Nexus 12cm fans can?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:56 pm 
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DougG, you say the CSP-MAG is about the same noise level as Eheim.
Which Eheim model is that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:42 pm 
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Location: Greece (Thessaloniki)
I found this review ( http://www.cooling-masters.com/articles-33-14.html ) in French of some very popular pumps which also features some very interesting sound files.
Here is a translated mp3 description to understand what you are listening to: "The pumps turned during 1 week to grind mechanics a little, especially those with bearings. Besides the retailer specifies that the noise decreases a little progressively, that gets along rather well. The level of noise (in dBa) is measured with the sonometer to 10 cm because certain noise levels are very low. All the pumps output against an identical restriction simulating an average circuit.
Because 2 of the same noises intensity in dBa can appear very different with the ear according to their tonality, one records also the noise of the pumps. The noise level represents only one partial information and must be supplemented as much as possible. This recording is done on the side of each pump at a distance of 10 cm and under strictly identical conditions. The files are delivered rough without sound treatment.
All the MP3 will give the noise during continuous operation except for AquaXtreme 150Z, of Asetek Waterchill and Dangerden D5. For AquaXtreme 150Z, one records starting from starting to have the rise in mode. For Waterchill Xtreme, one leaves the number of minimal revolutions to arrive at the number of maximum revolutions. For Laing D5 one leaves position # 5 to go down abruptly by the 4 stages until # 1, then one goes up in a continuous way towards # 5. Here the results which can vary slightly according to the pump (tolerances of manufacture)".
It seems that the D5 goes completely silent at setting 1.Can someone confirm this?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:43 am 
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I just listened too the Mp3's he has posted.

I have several of the pumps he tested, and the CSP-MAG he is testing has something wrong or it is not bleed.

All the pumps sound about right but my MAG makes 1/2 the noise of my D5.You have to place it against your ear to hear anything at all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:50 am 
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DougG , you say CSP-MAG makes half the noise of your D5.D5 at which setting?
Can you confirm that D5's airborne noise is inaudible at setting 1?


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