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 Post subject: Silverstone Tundra TD01: A passive watercooling system
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:03 pm 
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Silverstone unveiled a new watercooling system at Computex, the Tundra TD01, an external watercooling kit that is completely passive.

The Tundra TD01 is a small aluminium case that contains a reservoir and two submerged pumps. The water circulates inside the case walls to help radiate the heat more efficiently. There's also a thermometer in front of the unit, but it's only showing the ambient temperature. The kit comes with a CPU waterblock that fits all sockets. According to techPowerUp, Silverstone is also working on a bigger version which can house a full computer system.


From techPowerUp:

Image Image Image
(Click on a picture for a larger view)


From Matbe:

Image Image Image Image Image
(Click on a picture for a larger view)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:52 pm 
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Location: NEW YORK WORD AND STUFF YEAH OK
that's kinda amazing looking.

very impressed.

My guess: $459 dollars for a complete case and all setup


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:50 pm 
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Pretty, but I doubt it will perform very well.

Caveats:
1. edit: 1/4" tubing= low flow
2. tube-style radiator= inferior performance to flat-tubed heatercore style rads
3. y-connector= additional (unnecessary restriction) and lower flow
4. less apparent surface area than a reserator, and less than optimal fin arrangement (horizontal, heat travels vertically)
5. restrictive CPU block= REALLY low flow.

From what I can make out, the pump needs to be a monster of epic proportions, and have miraculously low heat dump, to attain competitive performance with the current crop of quiet air coolers (Thermalright SI-130, HR-01, Scythe SCNJ-1000, Zalman CNPS9500). Add in the premium Silverstone pricing, additional maintenance inherant with water cooling and leak potential, and it looks like an all-around loser to me.

Then again, that's what testing is for.

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Last edited by warriorpoet on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:25 pm 
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warriorpoet wrote:
Pretty, but I doubt it will perform very well.

Caveats:
1. 1/8" tubing= low flow
2. tube-style radiator= inferior performance to flat-tubed heatercore style rads
3. y-connector= additional (unnecessary restriction) and lower flow
4. less apparent surface area than a reserator, and less than optimal fin arrangement (horizontal, heat travels vertically)
5. restrictive CPU block= REALLY low flow.

From what I can make out, the pump needs to be a monster of epic proportions, and have miraculously low heat dump, to attain competitive performance with the current crop of quiet air coolers (Thermalright SI-130, HR-01, Scythe SCNJ-1000, Zalman CNPS9500). Add in the premium Silverstone pricing, additional maintenance inherant with water cooling and leak potential, and it looks like an all-around loser to me.

Then again, that's what testing is for.


Ouch, thanks for pointing out the caveats, I am surprised you can deduce so much out of a few pictures. Maybe it is really that bad and we should not release this product after all? :)

But seriously, we have done quite a bit of testing ourselves with both heat blocks and actual processors. After numerous tweaks and revisions, it is now capable of keeping a Pentium D 840 running in the mid-50C range at full load. We are adding a few more changes before production, so hopefully this will perform even better especially with the upcoming processors having lower wattage ratings than the current Pentium Ds.

The TD01 was not created to compete with the existing PC water cooling or air cooling solution (although I think it will still compete quite well). It was made for customers that have purchased our HTPC cases and are looking for a suitable liquid cooling solution. Most fan-less water cooling solutions such as the reserator you pointed out do not fit well into a living room environment for their atypical shape (I don't think many people wants either a big metal tube or industrial-looking radiator device next to their home theater components). We were able to leverage our TJ07's unibody manufacturing experience into something that we feel is a much better fit. So a world-beater it is not when it comes to liquid cooling performance, but I think the TD01 definitely has its spot in the market place.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:16 am 
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Is this 50°C value in the open, or inside of a massive enclosed wooden theater shelf? Because I could certainly imagine a very high ambient temp within one of those, which would reduce the cooling capacity...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:17 am 
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Location: NEW YORK WORD AND STUFF YEAH OK
It needs 3/8" tubing at least. it would increase flow which is everything in a watercooled system. if it doesnt have that, i imagine a good deal of pump noise to get the flow up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:10 am 
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~El~Jefe~ wrote:
it would increase flow which is everything in a watercooled system.

Me and my pumpless, therefore low flow, system would argue that effective heat transfer is far far more important... assuming you have at least some flow of course...


Your own res isn't exactly what's known as a 'high flow' system..... :wink: .....

:D



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:48 am 
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~El~Jefe~ wrote:
It needs 3/8" tubing at least. it would increase flow which is everything in a watercooled system. if it doesnt have that, i imagine a good deal of pump noise to get the flow up.


Flow is not everything. If the pump and rad are both optimized for low flow, then performance is not impacted much at all. And 3/8" tubing comes with serious tradeoffs of its own in small form factor applications. 3/8" takes up a lot of space inside even a mid-tower case, can you imagine trying to route it in an SFF? No, the 6mm tubing "european style" (that what it looks like at least) has the potential to have plenty of performance. This isn't aimed at the OC crowd, obviously, its aimed at the htpc market.

To quantify the different between that tubing makes: Assume that the as-shown system has a flow rate of ~0.5GPM (a reasonable guess, considering that we don't know anything about the pump), and that going to 3/8" would bump the flow rate all the way up to 2GPM. (probably an exaggeration) What would the difference in CPU temps be?



About 3°



SST, what's the plan for the packaging of this? Is there going to be a complete waterblock/TD01 kit in retail? Are you guys making the blocks, or sourcing/rebadging something?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:18 am 
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Rusty075 wrote:
To quantify the different between that tubing makes: Assume that the as-shown system has a flow rate of ~0.5GPM (a reasonable guess, considering that we don't know anything about the pump), and that going to 3/8" would bump the flow rate all the way up to 2GPM. (probably an exaggeration)


Changing the size of tube changes the velocity of the water in that section... not the 'flow(GPH)' rate for the whole system... (within reason...)... :D


Late one Russ?... :D



Time now for everyone to point out my inability to read propurly... :roll:...





Pete
:D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:58 pm 
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Pete, the only reason to change the size of tubing is to reduce restriction, thus improving flow rate. Going to a bigger tube actually reduces "velocity", but from a performance standpoint that impact is trivial. But you're right...it's impact on total system flow rate is small (much smaller than my exaggerated example), since the main point of restriction in a modern WC system is the WB's.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:08 pm 
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SST Guy wrote:
warriorpoet wrote:
Pretty, but I doubt it will perform very well.

Caveats:
1. 1/8" tubing= low flow
2. tube-style radiator= inferior performance to flat-tubed heatercore style rads
3. y-connector= additional (unnecessary restriction) and lower flow
4. less apparent surface area than a reserator, and less than optimal fin arrangement (horizontal, heat travels vertically)
5. restrictive CPU block= REALLY low flow.

From what I can make out, the pump needs to be a monster of epic proportions, and have miraculously low heat dump, to attain competitive performance with the current crop of quiet air coolers (Thermalright SI-130, HR-01, Scythe SCNJ-1000, Zalman CNPS9500). Add in the premium Silverstone pricing, additional maintenance inherant with water cooling and leak potential, and it looks like an all-around loser to me.

Then again, that's what testing is for.


Ouch, thanks for pointing out the caveats, I am surprised you can deduce so much out of a few pictures. Maybe it is really that bad and we should not release this product after all? :)

But seriously, we have done quite a bit of testing ourselves with both heat blocks and actual processors. After numerous tweaks and revisions, it is now capable of keeping a Pentium D 840 running in the mid-50C range at full load. We are adding a few more changes before production, so hopefully this will perform even better especially with the upcoming processors having lower wattage ratings than the current Pentium Ds.

The TD01 was not created to compete with the existing PC water cooling or air cooling solution (although I think it will still compete quite well). It was made for customers that have purchased our HTPC cases and are looking for a suitable liquid cooling solution. Most fan-less water cooling solutions such as the reserator you pointed out do not fit well into a living room environment for their atypical shape (I don't think many people wants either a big metal tube or industrial-looking radiator device next to their home theater components). We were able to leverage our TJ07's unibody manufacturing experience into something that we feel is a much better fit. So a world-beater it is not when it comes to liquid cooling performance, but I think the TD01 definitely has its spot in the market place.


Sure. I don't disagre with that.

From my perspective (i.e. a guy who OCs and WCs everything hot), a decent conventional high-flow system will likely beat it in everything but noise, but then again, I'm not exactly your target demographic.

BTW, I have many of the same caveats with the reerator, and that is a very popular system among the quiet set. And, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm more of a high-flow guy (in case you couldn't figure that out ;) ).

Best of luck, and as I stated previously, I can't wait to see benches/ tests. SPCR review sample, maybe?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:20 pm 
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Rusty075 wrote:
Pete, the only reason to change the size of tubing is to reduce restriction, thus improving flow rate. Going to a bigger tube actually reduces "velocity", but from a performance standpoint that impact is trivial. But you're right...it's impact on total system flow rate is small (much smaller than my exaggerated example), since the main point of restriction in a modern WC system is the WB's.

Tubing size does have very little impact on performance (although 1/4" to 3/8" is much more dramatic than 3/8" to 1/2"). As you correctly state, the major point of restriction in a WC system is the cooling block itself.

That said, 1/4" systems are typically designed for low flow, but still suffer a 1-2c deficit from tubing size alone in an identical system (from my own uncalibrated testing). Add that to the inherant inefficiencies of a condensor-style radiator (they work better in low flow systems, but still not quite as well as a heatercore style rad), the restriction apparent in the waterblock design (though it does look very cool), the lack of regulated active airflow and odd fin arrangement and I need convincing.

50c at load is impressive for a passive unit, but it only cools the CPU, while a decent air cooler supplies cooling air to motherboard components as well. In other words, I remain unconvinced that this will perform better than, say, a Thermalright SI-120, especially with a low-speed fan. Then again, it's a little tough to cram one of those into an HTPC case...so it does have a niche.

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Last edited by warriorpoet on Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:46 pm 
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It's absolutely hilarious that silverstone is now venturing into the world of watercooling without a favorable spcr review in any product category since the st30nf fanless psu. The recent tj-07 was panned as being too vibration prone and the st56zf was so noisy it wasn't even reviewed. The substituted st56f strider was reviewed, but ultimately fared no better . Even the enhance 360w had problems. Enhance is the oem for a number of silverstone power supplies.

I have no doubt that the tj-08 would receive a favorable review as it fits micro atx boards and standard atx power supplies - a unique combination and reflective of current trends. Unfortunately, however, it is not in the upcoming reviews list. It's nearest competitor is the antec nsk 3300, and although the nsk 3300 is limited by the sfx psu, the tj-08 will have no chance as antec is a major spcr sponsor.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:17 pm 
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warriorpoet wrote:
Tubing size does have very little impact on performance (although 1/8" to 3/8" is much more dramatic than 3/8" to 1/2").


You meant 1/4", not 1/8", right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:38 am 
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zds wrote:
warriorpoet wrote:
Tubing size does have very little impact on performance (although 1/8" to 3/8" is much more dramatic than 3/8" to 1/2").


You meant 1/4", not 1/8", right?

Ha, you're right. I should think when I type :P

corrections made

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:15 am 
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Hello, I am thrilled to see a passive watercooling product for the living room that can be used as a set top box but I didn't understand how this works.

The aluminum box we see inside the case is both the reservoir and the pump or is the case a large reservoir that the user will fill up with water?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:23 pm 
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Imvd85 wrote:
The aluminum box we see inside the case is both the reservoir and the pump or is the case a large reservoir that the user will fill up with water?

It looks to me like the plastic box in the middle is a reservoir that contains two submerged pumps. The case itself is purely a radiator.

Hang on, just read the top of the page again and that's exactly what it says...

Oh, and I can envisage it working quite nicely. Just remember it isn't exactly aimed at silent overclocking (unlike my PC :twisted: )


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:55 pm 
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pdf27 wrote:
Imvd85 wrote:
... Just remember it isn't exactly aimed at silent overclocking (unlike my PC :twisted: )

ditto...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:50 am 
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Well, I think if you could fill up the case with water and throw in a good quiet submergible pump like an Eheim 1046, the thing would probably work better both perfomancewise and soundwise.

If this case comes out like seen in the pictures, the only reason for me to buy it is to try to mod it to work like I described above.


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 Post subject: Ideas on how to improve SilverStone TD01
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:06 pm 
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Dear Experts,

I'm a novice in the field of liquid cooling and hope you can answer my question. I have SilverStone Tundra TD01 as part of my HTPC setup and, you can probably guess, my CPU is running VERY HOT (~75C). What if I disconnect power from the TD01 pumps and insert a more powerful pump inline instead? Would this work? If not then is there a mod for TD01 that I can do, etc.? The unit visualy looks great in my setup and I would absolutely hate to loose it. Thanks for your advice.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:33 pm 
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Imvd85 wrote:
...throw in a good quiet submergible pump like an Eheim 1046,

The 1046 is indeed both good and quiet. It is not, however submersible. Doing so would make it even more quiet, but less good as it would no longer be working...

PS, kidding aside, Innovatek has a really nice push-on reservoir for the 1046, 1048 and hpps that turns the pump into a "hybrid" submersible/in-line
Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:40 pm 
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Review of TD01: http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=664


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:10 pm 
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After a lot of thinking I've installed Danger Den CPX1 pump inside of my HTPC and disconnected power from the SilverStone TD01 pumps. The results are amaizing. DD-CPX1 pump is completely silent, you cannot even hear it. The temperature droped down more than 35C and stays around 40C during full load!!!

I wish SilverStone would use a decent pump to begin with, so users don't have spend another $50 and time for a mod installing an extra pump.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Great results! Congrats! Hope SS is reading this!


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